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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: DeniseBS on Wednesday 04 December 13 20:56 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for three of my great grandmother's sisters, Alice (1866), Agnes (1868) and Mary (1873). They are the daughters of William John SMITH and his wife Bridget (sometimes listed as Bridget Josephine) nee BUTLER. They were all born in Little Muddy Creek in West Auckland.
I have gone through all the deaths and marriages in New Zealand and can't find any that seem to fit. Another sister Martha (1880), I did find marrying for the first time at age 69.
They may not have stayed in Auckland, as Martha and my great grandmother ended up in Taranaki, while Mary is believed to have lived in Christchurch for sometime before returning to Auckland in the late 1920s. It is possible she married someone with a surname similar to SMITH, but I have been unable to find even a single possibility.
If anyone has any strays in their family trees matching these names I would love to hear from you.
These girls are driving me nuts.
Denise
:'(
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Hi Denise,it looks like Alice had the middle name Jane
1884/5498 Smith Edward / Bridget Josephine/ William John
1880/18248 Smith Martha / Bridget Josephine /William John
1877/15734 Smith Sarah Catherine/ Bridget Josephine/ William John
1873/14062 Smith Mary / Bridget /William John
1870/14982 Smith George / Bridget/ William John
1868/13924 Smith Agnes / Bridget/ William John
1865/28572 Smith Alice Jane / Bridget/ William John
1864/20966 Smith Elizabeth / Bridget/ William John
Cheers Janette
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Hi Janette
Yes, I was surprised when that came up on NZBDMS, as her baptism is only as Alice. She had an Aunt called Jane Elizabeth, but the funny thing is her younger sister by 9 years was baptised as Jane, but her birth along with Martha's was never registered. Jane is my gt grandmother.
Denise
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Sorry I should have said that Minnie (1881) was not registered. Minnie and Sarah Catherine died as children and Elizabeth died in childbirth in 1898 in Cambridge.
George never married and remained in Auckland. Edward did marry and ended up in the Waikato and is buried in Ngarauwahia
Cheers
Denise
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Hello...
I can't offer anything new sorry but I'm wondering if you have the 1885 death certificate for Bridget SMITH or the 1911 death certifcate for William John SMITH. The certificates should mention the number of living children and may help in working out if the three sisters were still alive in, respectively, 1885 and 1911.
I say 1885 and 1911 purely because of the following tree on Mundia...
William John SMITH 1831-1911
http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/26701401/1902271154 (http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/26701401/1902271154)
...so if the tree is the wrong William John SMITH then just ignore me :-)
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For what it's worth, there is possibly a probate file for the above William John SMITH held at Auckland Archives. Maybe it contains a will. Well worth starting an Auckland Archives look-up request thread.
SMITH William John - Titirangi - Gardener - 1911
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=21454781 (http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=21454781)
And this may be the probate file for his second wife Alice, also at Auckland Archives...
SMITH Alice - New Lynn - Widow - 1936
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=9389572 (http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=9389572)
And at Wellington Archives is the probate file of his son Edward who you said is buried in Ngaruwahia
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23127224 (http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23127224)
The files may contain a clue. Maybe not.
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I have gone through all the deaths and marriages in New Zealand and can't find any that seem to fit.
One thing I can give you is a list of deaths from the BDM NZ website but listed by first name, not surname. So if you feel like looking through ***lots*** of Mary, Agnes and Alice deaths then click on "Download" (not "Add to my Dropbox") at the following link...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x5z/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x5z/)
It's a small zip file containing four text files. If you have any problems unzipping it let me know.
You can use the BDM NZ Marriages website to eliminate a lot of the names and then spend some time checking out the remainder. Will be helpful if you can share the load as there are a lot of names.
I've included deaths plus or minus five years of the birth years you gave (which doesn't make sense but will if you download the zip file)
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Do you know if the two Mary SMITHs buried in adjacent plots at Waikumete are part of the family. They're most likely mother and daughter but one of them was born in 1873-ish.
Having said that, Mary and SMITH are quite common names so it's most likely a coincidence but I couldn't find them in PapersPast to rule them out.
SMITH, Mary, 24 years, d.15 Sep 1896, bur.17 Sep 1896, Roman Catholic Division B Row 3 Plot 13
SMITH, Mary, 85 years, d.26 Aug 1888, bur.28 Aug 1888, Roman Catholic Division B Row 3 Plot 14
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
Thank you for detailed reply to my post. Yes I have the details of William John's and Bridget's death certificates. Got them back in the day when the RGO was at Lower Hutt and they bought the registers out for you to get the information.
Although I have the number of girls and boys by age on William John's death certificate in 1911 (including the six children by his second wife) the number of girls for the first marriage is wrong and the ages are completely wrong. I take it George the eldest son was just guessing the ages of his sisters. It also includes Elizabeth, but she had died 13 years earlier.
The story goes that the girls did not get on with their stepmother and as each one became old enough they left home. By old enough it could only be thirteen or fourteen if they went into service, which is what I am assuming. Their father refused to talk about them or have contact with them after that. Mary was the only one that seems to have got in touch when she returned to Auckland in the late 1920s.
I have plenty of information about the remainder of the family, it is just these three girls that are the problem due to the estrangement. I have probates/wills, death notices, certificates for some, you name it.
I have a database in which I have entered all the births, deaths, burials, marriages and intention to marry details that I have collected over the years for all four girls (I only found Martha a couple of years ago). I have been using a process of elimination. I am not just starting out, I have been at this for a lvery ong time hence the desparate post.
Edward's daughter is still alive in her mid ninties and has supplied quite a bit of information. She said her father basically did not know the names of his full sisters, apart from Mary, which made him very sad. She is the one that told me Mary had lived in Christchurch and had returned to Auckland living in the Kelston area. She thought she lived in Nikau Street. She said that when Mary died she was about 15, so that would make Mary's death around 1930. She was also the one that thought that Mary's married name was Smith or something similar.
Thanks again for your efforts and the time you have taken looking at my problem it is very appreciated.
Denise
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Hello Denise...
Certainly sounds like you've made the effort.
Here's a modified text file containing the Marys who were born in 1873 plus or minus five years and who died between 1926 and 1935. There's "only" three hundred names :-)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x62/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x62/)
All you need to do is find each one in the 1925 or 1928 electoral roll and hope one of them lives in Nikau Street :-)
I'd start with the 1873 births and work my way out.
EDIT:
Forgot to ask :-)
...for the record would you mind letting us know the children's details from both William and Bridget's death certificates. They're most likely wrong as you say but would still be handy to know.
Thanks again.
Regards
Beg
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She is the one that told me Mary [...] had returned to Auckland living in the Kelston area. She thought she lived in Nikau Street.
She said that Mary's death [was] around 1930.
She was also the one that thought that Mary's married name was Smith or something similar.
Hi again...
Still no progress but here are some thoughts...
If by similar to SMITH you mean a common surname (common as in ubiquitous, not as in muck :-) then Stones Directory in 1925 and 1926 has a Mary WILSON living in Nikau Street, Auckland.
Stones Directory - 1925
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x7a/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x7a/)
I think it's a red herring but WILSON is a fairly common surname so I thought I'd mention it.
The 1925/26 Mary WILSON listed in Stones is not in the 1927 edition. Not sure where she got to.
There's a Mary WILSON died in 1927 age 53 years but she was a spinster living in Wellington.
As I said, I'm reasonably sure this is a red herring but I thought I'd put it out there.
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From 1927 onwards there is a second Nikau Street and this one is in New Lynn which googlemaps says is right next door to Kelston. So I'd guess that this is the Nikau Street to which Edward's daughter was referring.
Here's Stones 1930 which mentions the Nikau Street in New Lynn. The names listed are the same as for the previous few years.
Stones Directory - 1930
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x7b/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x7b/)
Maybe cross reference the names to BDM NZ marriages to see if one of them married a Mary SMITH.
Or see if they're mentioned in the 1928 electoral roll. I don't know which electorate New Lynn was in back in 1928 but here's McRobie to help. I can't make sense of it. Maybe someone with local knowledge might.
McRobie - 1928 Auckland electorates
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x7c/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x7c/)
I've already cross-referenced the Nikau Street surnames to the list of deaths I gave earlier with no joy so I'm thinking it's another red herring. But it might lead somewhere. Or might not :-)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
I had meant to reply saying that I had gone through the 1928 ER for Marys living in Nikau St (yes you are correct it is the Kelston/New Lynn one). I have been through the ER Districts Eden and Auckland Suburbs, as I wasn't sure which one it would come under. It was Auckland Suburbs, but there were no Marys in Nikau Street. Closest were a Mary Martin in Rimu Street and a Mary Taylor in Kowhai Street. The other Nikau Street is or was in Mt Eden I think.
When my elderly cousin said similar to Smith she meant, sounds like. She originally said it was Smith, but when I told her there were no Mary Smiths marrying a Smith, she decided it was something that sounded very similar.
One of the things I had also already done was go through all the Marys who were buried in Auckland Cemeteries from 1925 to 1935 ( my cousin was married by then and not living in Auckland so it had to be before that). I gradually eliminated all of them.
However, two things, I was looking at Marys who were buried at the correct age only (i.e. born 1873 or 1874) and secondly your list had a Mary Cobb who died in 1932 aged 59. But Waikumete has her as 56, so I would not have looked at her as a possible. I am going to check her out further. Also using your list to expand my search to Mary's who age is out by a few years. I was thinking about whether it was worth it and I remember my cousin thought she had no children and as she went to the house sale after her death Mary must have been a widow. So who would have given the information? If it was before 1929, her brother George may have, but as I said he probably was the one that got them all wrong on the father's death certificate. So I think it is definitely worth the effort.
I will also follow through on the Mary Wilson. Can't hurt. Someone said if you use a process of elimnation whatever is left not matter how unlikely is bound to be the truth. I am just replacing truth with person.
Although as I say I have done alot to find all three of these girls, it is good to get someone looking at it with a fresh perspective. You know the old saying about wood and trees.
Thanks again for your time and effort.
Cheers
Denise
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Mary is believed to have lived in Christchurch for sometime before returning to Auckland in the late 1920s.
Hi again...
Still no joy but in the interests of building a bigger haystack here's another list. I'm a great believer in lists :-)
This list consists of Marys who were mentioned in both the 1919 Canterbury electoral rolls and the 1928 Auckland electoral rolls. It presupposes that a) Mary is on both rolls and that b) she used the same name both times.
Mary - 1919 Canterbury - 1928 Auckland.txt
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x8r/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x8r/)
It's one file but in two parts, namely "Names common to the 1919 Canterbury electoral rolls and the 1928 Auckland Suburbs electoral roll" followed by the much larger "Names common to the 1919 Canterbury electoral rolls and the 1928 Auckland electoral rolls".
In combination with the BDM NZ Marriages website plus the "1926-1935 list of deaths" I posted earlier something might pop up. Or not. I had a quick and unsuccessful look but something might catch your eye. There's lots of Mary Ann SMITHs.
A quick and unsuccessful look
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x8s/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x8s/)
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Two more lists to make at some point in the future....one is the Marys on the 1928 Auckland electoral rolls who don't appear on the 1935 Auckland electoral rolls. Possibly an indication of a death between 1928 and 1935.
And the ultimate list is one containing *all* females who died in Auckland in 1930 (+/-5 years) who were born in 1873 (+/-5 years). I had a quick look and that's really only about 300 deaths per year. PapersPast, the electoral rolls and the BDM NZ Marriages website would soon sort out the non-starters.
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I told her there were no Mary Smiths marrying a Smiths
Have you looked for a SMITH to SMITH marriage in Australia. Maybe ask on the Aussie board.
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She thought she lived in Nikau Street
How accurate is your cousin's memory :-) It's just you said she is in her mid-90's (so born 1918/19) and you also said your cousin was about fifteen when Mary died (so Mary would have died 1933/34). If your cousin had left Auckland by 1935 that narrows down Mary's year of death to 1933, 1934 or 1935. It's pretty easy to follow the comings and goings on Nikau Street for that period if you cross-reference **Stones Directory and the electoral rolls. I'm making half-hearted attempts to do that but I only have access to the ancestry website when I visit my library.
**When I say Stone's Directory I actually mean Wise's Directory. Sorry about the confusion :-)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
Thanks for your latest input. You ask how reliable my cousin's memory is, well.... My cousin was born in 1915 and was married in the Waikato in Dec 1934. I have two pieces of paper that she wrote notes on for me. One, that is not dated, came with a Xmas card a few years ago (I only met her when she was already in her 90s) says "I was about 9 or 10 yrs old when I met her and was 15 yrs when I went to their auction." referring to her father's sister Mary. This is what I have been doing all my research off. So that is why I have been looking around 1929 and five years either side for her death
However I have just looked back at the notes I took the first time I met her and what she told me then was quite different.
1) Mary and her husband came up to New Lynn, Auckland for a holiday (when she & her husband were living there)
2) They moved to New Lynn after she and her husband had left Auckland.
I have assumed that the information she sent me later was correct as she had time to think about things rather than being rushed the afternoon she met this distant cousin who was asking her so many questions. But as I have now all but eliminated the additional Marys as per your list who weren't necessarily the correct age, it may be time to turn back to what she orginally told me. This would make the death of Mary much later, but how my cousin managed to go to the auction of Mary's house in Auckland when she was living in Ngaruawahia with a young family is beyond me. Perhaps the truth is she and her husband were still in Auckland when Mary died.
Using Electoral Rolls rather than my cousin's memory she and her husband moved to Auckland between 1941 and 1943. Then they moved back to Ngaruawahia between 1946 and 1949/51.
This also starts to become a problem as the Aunt that she said she went to th auction with moved to Raglan in the early 1950s and disappeared (not genealogically speaking, but literally) in 1954.
Re the possibility of a marriage in Australia. That has crossed my mind too and I have eliminated NSW and Queensland, or at least I have lists of marriages for the three smith girls I am looking for but didn't find a match. As Victoria charges for index views I haven't done that one as yet. I didn't go any farther afield than the East Coast States.
Denise
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Hi again...
That's interesting :-)
Using Electoral Rolls rather than my cousin's memory she and her husband moved to Auckland between 1941 and 1943. Then they moved back to Ngaruawahia between 1946 and 1949/51.
So to clarify, the above means your cousin is on the 1943 and 1946 Auckland electoral rolls which means they were in Auckland any time between 1941 and 1949.
...she was living in Ngaruawahia with a young family
Are you able to localise your cousin's whereabouts by using the BDM NZ Births microfiche. In other words, were some of the children born in Auckland.
Or can you find your cousin in Auckland using Wise's Directory.
Obviously if you can find when she was living in Auckland it might give us a better time-frame for the house auction.
But as long as "Nikau Street" is still valid I think it's just a case of keep calm and carry on, except change "1925-35" to "1941-49".
EDIT:
I don't suppose your cousin actually attended Mary's funeral. Just wondering what proof you have that Mary died in Auckland.
And I just noticed the 1948 death for a Mary SMITH cka ALDRIDGE, born 1874-ish. Buried at Waikumete but in the RC section. Maybe check the electoral rolls to see if she lived near Nikau Street.
1948/32010 - SMITH CKA ALDRIDGE, Mary, 74Y
CKA = commonly known as
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
She was in Glen Massey (Raglan ER) in 1941 and by 1943 was living in Portage Road, New Lynn (this was the house she spent the later part of her childhood in, the family home). They are still in Portage Road in 1946, but in Taupiri (Raglan ER) on the 1949/51 electorall rolls.
Her parents had moved to Glen Massey from Portage Road, New Lynn between 1931 and 1935. She didn't go with them, but joined them a year or so later, so as she was only sixteen in 1931 they must have gone closer to 1933 or beginning of 1934.
My cousin and her husband had three children, all born between 1935 and 1939, and born in the Ngaruawahia area.
So between 1934 and 1941 (at least) they were not in Auckland, they were in Auckland by 1943 (or perhaps earlier in the later part of 1941 or 1942) and they left Auckland after the 1949/51 electoral roll data was collected.
She was quite adamant about Nikau Street, but who knows perhaps she is confusing another family member who lived there, although I am not aware of anyone.
You can understand why I did my first post, hoping someone had one of these girls in their family, as I really don't have alot of concrete evidence to go on.
You may be wondering why I am not asking my cousin more questions. I don't believe it will illicit any new information and I am told she is getting quite confused these days. She has moved into a home this year, which she definitely didn't want to do.
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Hi Denise...
Absolutely no need to hassle your cousin. We all know memory fades. Thankfully there are electoral rolls and similar from which we can work.
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Do you read the following as if Mary is living with Evelyn and Ted at Portage Road or that Ted, who lives at Portage Road, has two sisters, Mary and Evelyn....
PapersPast
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x99/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x99/)
Either way, do you read it as if Mary is still alive in 1929.
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There's currently another thread on the NZ board which mentions the Mental Health registers at Auckland Archives. Specifically the Patient Discharge and Death registers, Patient Case file registers and Visitors registers.
Any thoughts on checking the Index to the Registers for a Mary SMITH. If you can't get to Auckland you could start a new thread asking for a look-up. Some kind Rootschatter may be visiting and do a look-up for you.
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Don't stress that this thread has basically become me asking you questions. I'm simply running point. Rest assured that cleverer minds than mine are keeping an eye on the thread and will chip in as and when :-)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
Ted is my cousin's father, Evelyn is a half sister and so is that Mary. Believe it or not my gt gt grandfather named two of his daughters Mary even though the first one hadn't died. Mary is a full sister born 1873, and the one I am looking for, while Mary Catherine, born in 1892 by my gt gt grandfather's second wife, is the one mentioned in the death notice for George.
Evelyn and Mary lived in one house in Portage Road while Ted and his family lived in another further down.
Just when you thought it couldn't get any more complicated.
Cheers
Denise
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Hello Denise
Alice was born on 1st November 1866, and Agnes on 4th August, 1868. Both were baptised at St Peter's Onehunga on 11th April 1869 by the Rev A G Purchase. Father William John, Little Muddy Creek, a Gardener, and mother Bridget Josephine nee Butler.
Mary was baptised at St Peter's Onehunga on 20 August 1875. Daughter of William John and Rachael. No birth date on the entry.
Hope this helps.
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Mary was baptised at St Peter's Onehunga on 20 August 1875. Daughter of William John and Rachael. No birth date on the entry.
Hope this helps.
Hello Denise and Oakleigh...
Do you know the surname of this Rachael.
Regards
Beg
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No. She only shows up that one time. Perhaps I got it wrong. Daughter of William & Rachel, Muddy Creek, Bushman. Could there have been 2 Williams at Muddy Creek at that time?
Anyway. Here is another one. Baptised at Helensville Parish 3 June 1883, born 20 October 1882, Minnie d/o William John of Titirangi, Settler and Bridget.
I haven't looked further than that.
OAKLEIGH
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Hi Oakleigh
I have the baptisms for Alice, Agnes and Mary, thank you anyway. I took the Rachel to just be an error on the part of the person who wrote it in the register.
The only way I could find my gt grandmother Jane's birth date was through her baptism, because she wasn't registered. She was one of the ones that was bapt in Holy Sepluchre. A couple were also bapt in St Patricks for their mother Bridget, who was a Catholic.
The one I didn't have was Minnie. Wonder why they wandered up to Helensville? Do you know who the sponsers were? Most of the time it was William John's siblings and their spouses or in a couple of cases his parents. Poor wee Minnie was being looked after by her Aunts and grandmother when she died in Thames aged 4 at least thats what the burial record says. Obviously if she was born in Oct 1882 and died in May 1886 she was not quite 4. She is buried in Tarau with a cousin, who also died young.
Great bit of missing information.
Thank you
Denise
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Good morning Denise
The sponsors were Minnie's parents. I wonder how many millions of William Smiths there were in the world. My Smiths had loads of Williams all over the show. Smiths seem to move around a lot.
Good luck.
Oakleigh
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Hi Oakleigh
I don't think William and Bridget's appearance in Helensville was any kind of permenant move. Although William had been in the Waitakeres since 1854 working as a bushman, he only purchased his 20 acres at the bottom of what is now South Titirangi Road in 1881. He didn't sell that land until 1907/08.
I think they were in Helensville on some kind of trip. I was wondering how easy it would be to get there in the early 1880s from Titirangi. I remember that I have a photo of a letter written by Mary when she was in Standard Three at Titirangi School (she would be nine so it would be 1882). In the letter she talks of what she did in the Christmas Holidays, recounitng a trip by train to Kumeu with the Sunday School for a picnic. If the train line keep going to Helensville at that time which it quite likley did it would not have been as difficult as I first thought. It would just be the cost for a family of nine.
After being a bushman for years when William settled on his 20 acres he became a gardener (assume market)/orchardist. Apparently he had quite a plum orchard according to the recollections of one resident ( from the J T Diamond Collection at Henderson Library). He may have been in Helensville on business and took the whole family as a treat. Although Elizabeth was nineteen so she may have been looking after the others and it was only William, Bridget and the baby.
So many questions.
Thanks again for the info.
Cheers
Denise :)
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Hi all...
Would some kind soul be able to find the electoral roll details for Mary BURNETT-SMITH. She is found in the Auckland Suburbs electorate in 1928 and 1935.
Just wondering who she is.
And do the rolls list anyone else with the same double-barrel surname.
Thanks
Beg
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Hi Beg
1928 Auckland Suburbs General Roll
BURNETT-SMITH Mary, Valley Road, Henderson, Spinster
1935 Auckland Suburbs General Roll
BURNETT-SMITH Mary, "Te Kohanga", Valley Rd, Henderson, Spinster
These are the only two Burnett-Smith entries that come up in all of NZ.
Cheers
Helen
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Hello Helen...
Thanks very much :-)
I just had a thought and checked Wise's (index free to view on ancestry) and a "MS Mry Burnett-Smith" is listed in Wellington in 1936 and 1938.
I can't find her name in the usual b, m and d places but I'm thinking she's a red herring.
Thanks for your help.
All the best
Beg
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Hi Denise...
Before I get too involved** I was just wondering if you've already discounted Alice Jane GERDES m.s SMITH.
She died in Sydney in 1936 and her death notice gives her age as 69 so born 1867-ish.
Death Notice
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17320285 (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17320285)
Funeral Notice
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17320221 (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17320221)
The funeral notice mentions a sister Mrs M SMALLWOOD so that's the obvious path to follow assuming you've not already discounted this Alice.
**When I say "get too involved" I actually mean "ask the Aussie board to trace Mrs M SMALLWOOD" :-)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
According to her death record her father's name was Henry Alfred and her mother was Abigail Mary Jane, so no she is not mine.
I did start today looking at the Australian possibilty again.
Using the death records for New South Wales with no surname, there are no Alice, Agnes or Marys with the parents William John and Bridget. There is a Mary Walshe who died in 1943 who has John William and Bridget as her parents so she is worth checking further in case the informant mixed up her father's names.
I think I will need to get onto Victoria and South Australia.
Thanks
Denise
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Ooops...silly me. Forgot to check the parents on NSW BMD Deaths.
As you were :-)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Denise...
Worth a further look...
Agnes Smith 1868-1946
http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/30030957/13695012263 (http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/30030957/13695012263)
Possibly her letters of administration at Dunedin Archives...
ANDREWS Agnes - Port Molyneux - Widow
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22081107 (http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22081107)
and his...
ANDREWS Oliver - Romahapa - Farmer
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22077820 (http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22077820)
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ANDREWS, Oliver (Mr & Mrs) - The Mist of Time
http://www.balcluthagenealogy.org.nz/06_Andf_Az.htm (http://www.balcluthagenealogy.org.nz/06_Andf_Az.htm)
Following link might work...
Libraries holding "The Mist of Time"
http://tinyurl.com/mfuvptk (http://tinyurl.com/mfuvptk)
If not...
TradeMe - The Mist of Time
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=685721242 (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=685721242)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
I have worked through the Agnes Smith who married Oliver Andrews and I am sure she is the daughter of James and Margaret Smith.
I looked up the Mists of Time ref a number of years ago now and it wasn't all that helpful. It said "Mr & Mrs Oliver Andrews bought Petrie's house of Mr Allen, childless couple from Owaka."
Oliver Andrews was married to Mary Bootten , then she died in 1903 and he married Agnes Smith at James Kilgour's house in 1906. I believe James Kilgour was Agnes' brother in law. His wife was Mary Smith. These two girls were daughters of James Chapman Smith and Margaret Martin. James and Margaret had four other children.
Cheers
Denise
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Hi Denise...
That's a nuisance :-)
Was a bit concerned that Balclutha was involved because you can't really get much further from Auckland.
Before you discount it fully you should email the tree owner and ask if he/she is just guessing at Agnes' parents or if he/she has an actual source e.g marriage or death certificate, family bible etc.
Out of interest, what's your source.
Must admit I've come across the surname KILGOUR previously. Not sure if it was in Thames or part of the BUTLER family. Will try and remember where :-)
Regards
Beg
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I believe James Kilgour was Agnes' brother in law. His wife was Mary Smith. These two girls were daughters of James Chapman Smith and Margaret Martin. James and Margaret had four other children.
You might (or might not) be wrong about James Chapman SMITH. The following Mundia tree has an 1898 family photo of James Chapman SMITH, his wife Margaret and their seven surviving children. Two of their daughters had died pre-1898.
There's no mention of an Agnes or a Mary.
You might need to register with Mundia to see the photo...
http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/37815333/19145756839 (http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/37815333/19145756839)
...or just click here...
http://tinyurl.com/luv3ex9 (http://tinyurl.com/luv3ex9)
Regards
Beg
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Must admit I've come across the surname KILGOUR previously.
Hi again...
This is the KILGOUR connection I mentioned earlier.
Not sure if it's relevant or a coincidence. I'm guessing a coincidence :-)
Eliza Jane KILGOUR.
Born: Abt 1889
Marriage: Edward SMITH on 30 March 1909 in Mt Albert Auckland New Zealand.
Died: Abt 1975 aged about 86
Eliza married Edward SMITH, son of William John SMITH and Bridget Catherine (or Josephine) BUTLER, on 30 March 1909 in Mt Albert Auckland New Zealand. Edward SMITH. was born on 12 October 1884 and died on 6 August 1941 in Hamilton New Zealand.
http://homepages.vodafone.co.nz/~noelkeyes/1044.htm (http://homepages.vodafone.co.nz/~noelkeyes/1044.htm)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
Edward Smith is the youngest brother of the girls I am trying to find. Noel Keyes is my cousin and the information on his website in relation to this came from me.
As for your previous question re am I sure about the parents of Agnes Smith who married Oliver Andrews. Without any certificates no I am not 100% sure, but I am 99.9% sure. Although having another look again this morning, I am not longer sure that she is the daughter of James Chapman Smith and Margaret Martin. There was another couple with the same names having children in the same area at the same time. This James and Margaret died in 1913 and 1915 respectively, both at the home of their son in law Andrew Kilgour in Romahapa. I think I said his name was James before, sorry that was a mistake. The reason I thought Agnes was their daughter probably happend as although the Greenfield James Smith was actually James Chapman Smith, on the birth registrations he was only ever put down as James Smith. The births of Mary and Agnes in 1865 and 1867 fitted in with the births of his other children perfectly. But having found death notices for James and Margaret Smith dying at Andrew Kilgour's house and him being noted as their son in law it doesn't match up with the James Chapman Smith and Mary Martin of Greenfield.
I am not aware of any connection between these Kilgour's and the family of Ted's wife Eliza Jane. There is a book about the Kilgours of Hui, West Auckland and from memory there is no mention of a connection with Southland/Otago. Andrew Kilgour's father was Alexander and he also had a brother Alexander. They were all bakers in the Balclutha area.
Cheers
Denise
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Hi again...
That makes things a bit clearer thanks.
The only thing I can't yet see is the "sisters" connection you've made between Andrew KILGOUR's wife Mary m.s SMITH (b.1865 m.1885 d.1955) and the Agnes SMITH who married Oliver ANDREWS.
You said that the 1906 ANDREWS/SMITH marriage took place at Andrew KILGOUR's residence. I'm guessing that's from an ITM or newspaper notice. It does sort of imply that Mary and Agnes are related. I guess that's why you said "not 100% sure but I am 99.9% sure."
Maybe Mary and Agnes were cousins. I don't suppose Mary's father James SMITH might be a brother to your William John SMITH.... straw >>> clutch :-)
Apart from that, it's back to the drawing board :-) although I still think there's value in your contacting the tree owner I mentioned in Reply #27, if only to suggest that he/she either provides a source or corrects the tree.
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
I have sent a message to Dawn asking what her source was. I have a funny feeling it is going to turn out to be something I put on the NZSG mail list that the owner of the tree has misunderstood and put up as gospel.
If it is the same Dawn I was communicating with, I said that the Agnes born to William John and Bridget Smith nee Butler that she mentioned in an e-mail was the right one, meaning the one I am looking for and I think she has taken it to mean the right one as in the one who married Oliver Andrews.
The trouble with putting information on the internet that you haven't researched yourself.
I have one other Agnes that I still haven't discounted. She married George Edward Ormond in Gisborne in 1917 (I haven't seen the ITM yet so have no details). This is not the George Edward Ormond of the well known Gisborne family but one who was born in Roxborough and moved to Gisborne early 20th century to work for a family member. He died 1929 and is burial is on the GDC cemetery database, but no Agnes, She is still in Gisborne up to 1935 ER but then disappears. No death or remarriage on the online BDMs. I have spoke to a gt neice (?) of GEs recently she knew of the marriage to Agnes Smith but didn't know anything about Agnes or what happened to her. Need to see the ITM on my next visit to archives.
Cheers
Denise
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;D ;D ;D
Hi Beg
I just thought you might like to know that I think I have found my Mary Smith. Looks like my grandfather's cousin got two things wrong; her married name was not like Smith and she died 14 years after she thought she did.
With the extra New Zealand Herald newspapers coming on line I thought I would do some checking and I came up with the following:
Mary Hill of 7 Nikau Street New Lynn died in 1944. She was the wife of William Charles Frederick Hill and they were late of St Albans, Christchurch.
It looked like a pretty good fit to me. No age was mentioned but a quick check on NZBDM shows she was 70. Not quite right she should be 71, but close.
Then I checked for a marriage, which took place in 1909. I wondered why I didn't pick her as a possible when I transcribed all the Mary Smith Intentions to Marry. Turns out she lied about her age. As she was four years older then her husband she lied and said she was the same age. Or else I transcribed it incorrectly.
Just waiting for the marriage certificate to arrive for final proof. Pity there are so many public holidays in the way.
Keep your fingers crossed.
Cheers
Denise
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Hi Denise,
Superb work...fingers, toes and eyes crossed that you've found Mary :-)
Let us know how it turns out.
Any progress with Alice and Agnes?
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Probate at Wgtn Archives. Maybe ask for a lookup if it's the right Mary.
HILL, Mary - Auckland - Married Woman - 1944
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23137822 (http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23137822)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Denise,
If it's the right Mary I'd be happy to look for the probate Beg Clonrode listed above.
I'll wait to hear.
Spades
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Thanks Spades
I am near Wellington so am able to do it myself. Annoyingly though I was only at National Archives on Tuesday looking at probates and coroner's inquests. Sadly found a suicide in the family. PTDS from WWII.
Just hope it is a will handled by Public Trust rather than an intestate. Gut says it is probably the latter.
Thanks for your offer.
Denise
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yippee
Certificate came by e-mail this morning and it is her. I didn't mistranscribed the Intention to Marry, she lied about her age on the Marriage Certificate as well. Father's name William John Smith Farmer, mother Bridget Catherine Smith nee Butler. (don't know why they keep giving Bridget a second name, she didn't have one).
She has given her occupation as Laundress so that might help me find her on earlier Electoral Rolls.
Talk about made my day, this had made my year.
No sign of Alice or Agnes. The witnesses were two clerks who probably worked in the Registrar's Office.
Cheers
Denise
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When you finally make a hole in that brick wall it comes down fast. With the idea that these missing Smith girls like to marry younger men and lie about their age I went through my list of Intentions to Marry for Alice Smith and one caught my eye. An Alice Smith marrying a John Fisher in Christchurch in 1908. She said she was forty and mine would have been a few months short of forty-three, but given the outcome with Mary a definite possibility.
I finally viewed Mary Hill nee Smith's probate yesterday along with her husband's and both of them mention several of Mary's sisters in their wills, Alice Fisher ( I was on the right track), Jane Toohey (my gt grandmother and not in WCF's will which he wrote in 1944 as she was deceased) and Martha, although the husband calls her Matilda in his. I will still get the marriage certificate for absolute proof.
Only Agnes Smith born 1868 to find now. She is not mentioned in either will so was probably deceased before 1935 when Mary wrote hers. I still fancy the one that married George Edward Ormond in Gisborne in 1917. He died in 1929 and she is last seen on an ER in 1935 still in Gisborne, no remarriage and no death. Also not in same cemetery as her husband. Maybe I just need to bite the bullet and purchase the certificate.
Cheers
Denise
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Hi Denise
It is better to purchase the "printouts" rather that certs,they are cheaper and have more info on them as they are a copy of the entry in the register
Cheers Janette
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Hi Janette
You are right I used the wrong word. I got caught out in January when I ordered a certificate rather than a printout. I won't make that mistake again and it wasn't even mine.
Thanks for the reminder.
Cheers
Denise
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Hi Denise...
Congrats again :-)
Worth looking at another probate at Wellington before you spend any money?
George Edward ORMOND - Gisborne (Clerk) - 1930
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23101711 (http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23101711)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
Bother I forgot about that one. Oh well I will save it for another trip. Thanks for reminding me it was there.
There was one thing I forgot to say in my previous post. The John Fisher who Alice Smith married was the uncle of the William Charles Frederick Hill that her sister Mary married. I thought they might be cousins because I knew WCF's mother was a Fisher, but uncle and nephew, didn't see that one coming.
Cheers
Denise