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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Bedfordshire => England => Bedfordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: pastline on Sunday 08 December 13 00:21 GMT (UK)
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George Green born 1801 living Clifton Bedfordshire on1841 census with his wife Ann Green but both are missing on the 1851 census and their children are living with relatives. Any information appreciated.
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Hi pastline
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
I've moved your request to the Bedfordshire board, hopefully someone will come along soon to help you out.
Dawn
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Hi Pastline
Welcome to Rootschat
They're a mysterious family as I can't find them in 1851 either, nor any obvious burials.
A 15 year old Rhoda Lewington was living with them in 1841, and there's a marriage of George Green and Ann Livintion on 4 Feb 1830 in Clifton, which looks to be the right couple. Rhoda Lewington was baptised on 28 Aug 1825 in Clifton, the daughter of Charles and Ann Lewington, and there's a burial of a Charles Lewington in Clifton in 1825, so perhaps Rhoda in 1841 was Ann's daughter by a first marriage. Have you checked the marriage entry in Clifton parish register to see if Ann was a widow and to see who the witnesses were?
Charles Lewinton married Ann Kitchener in Clifton on 11 Oct 1824, which explains why two of the Green children were living in Arlesey in 1851 as nephew and niece with a Kitchener family.
None of which explains what happened to the Greens!
Both George and Ann gave their age as 40 in 1841 ie age 40-44, so born between June 1796 and May 1801. I can't see an obvious baptism for either of them. Ann's brother William gave his birthplace as Hinxworth Herts in 1851.
What else do you know about them?
David
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Intriguing that the William who was aged 6 in 1841 who I've found living in London in 1881 named a son Warner. Now I've done look ups in the past for Warner Green in Clifton/Shefford, and as I don't believe in coincidences I'll see what else I can find.
More later
David
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A Warner Green was baptised at Meppershall, Beds, on 15 Oct 1807, son of John and Sarah.
John and Sarah also baptised George Green in Meppershall on 23 Dec 1802
John Green married Sarah Green in Meppershall on 17 Sep 1789
They baptised 10 children in Meppershall but they don't appear to have always baptised them promptly, and did them in bunches:
4 Apr 1793 John and Elizabeth (a long time after their marriage)
5 Apr 1795 William
23 Dec 1802 Catherine and George (big gap from 1795)
15 Oct 1807 Rebecca, Warner and Mary
3 Aug 1809 William
12 Aug 1811 Samuel
I think George could easily have been a late baptism, which would give his birth between 1796 and 1801 to fit his age in 1841.
Warner age 30 was living in Clifton in 1841, with, presumably his mother, Sarah age 65
Would take more work to tighten up the link between George and Warner, but on the face of it they look to be brothers.
Still don't know happened to George and Ann though!
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I think I may have reinvented the wheel here! See a very old thread, before I joined Rootschat, at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=2760.30 which includes the information about the marriage of George and Ann - George Green otp = Ann Lewington widow otp. George left his mark, Ann signed. Wit: William Kitchener, Mary Green & William Scott. By banns. William Kitchener was presumably Ann's brother, with whom two of her children were living in Arlesey in 1851. William also married in Clifton, to Frances Soal
There are other threads at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=260328.0 and http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=4057.msg599106#msg599106 in which I was involved
Not sure yet about the Kitcheners which the other threads reckon came from Ampthill. Ann's brother William was born and baptised in Hinxworth, so I'm taking Ampthill with a large pinch of salt at the moment. I'll have a look at them this afternoon.
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The 1851 census has William Kitchenor's pob as Hinxworth. The two Green children living with him and his family are listed as Parish Relief under "occupation". There are deaths registered for three Anns and one George for Biggleswade reg district in the period between 1841 and 1851 censuses.
Ann: Q4 1841 6 36, Q2 1843 6 40 and Q1 1848 6 61
George: Q2 1847 6 44
But would need to someone with access to Clifton burial records to check.
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I checked on these deaths back in Feb 2006 and posted "The Jun 1847 George was age 30 at Biggleswade. The three Anns were aged 80 at Southill; 16 at Campton, and 85 at Old Warden." ie not the right George and Ann
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I've just posted the following on the 2004 thread
"This is a very old thread, and geniedi hasn't logged in for a couple of years, but I'll post this anyway.
Geniedi reckoned that Ann Kitchener was born in Ampthill c1800 (presumably the Ann Baptised on 5 Apr 1801, the daughter of James and Esther). I disagree!
In 1851 two of Ann's children were living in Arlesey with their uncle William Kitchener. William was 54, born Hinxworth, Herts. There's a baptism in Hinxworth on 14 May 1797 of William Kitchener son of John and Ann. William Kitchener was one of the witnesses at Ann Kitchener's first marriage in 1825 in Clifton, and William himself married in Clifton in 1821. So it's not unreasonable to assume that Ann and William were siblings.
But as William's parents were John and Ann I don't follow how Ann daughter of James and Esther could have been his sister. John and Ann in Hinxworth baptised three further children there, in 1801, 1804 and 1807 - but no Ann unfortunately.
So whilst I don't think Ann was the one from Ampthill, I can't prove, other than circumstantially, that she was the daughter of John and Ann in Hinxworth"
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Must have missed that post. My other thought was that they had gone to the workhouse first and died there, but the list of ages and places of death eliminates that. I've just checked through B'wade workhouse inmates, but all are listed by full names (not initials only as I have seen on some censuses) and no George and Ann Green.
I have had two cases recently where a couple have disappeared between 1841 and 1851 censuses, with the children living with relatives - in one case split between paternal grandparents and maternal aunt. In one case the parents were drowned when a boat capsized and deaths registered in the district nearest to where the boat sank, I had only been looking in the areas where they lived and where they had family connected to so took a long time to track them down. The other couple were transported for life for burning farmer's ricks in the early 1840's, so no record of death in UK registers. There were newspaper reports of both cases.
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I'd also checked the Bedford Gaol site at http://apps.bedfordshire.gov.uk/grd/ but drew a blank
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There's a William Green born Clifton age 16 in 1851 living with Claydon family over the border in Gamlingay listed as servant. Piece: 1758, Folio: 29, Page: 22. Looks like one of the missing children from 1841. So now to find John Green who would be abt 18 in 1851. The extra child Samuel born abt 1842 at least tells us that George and Ann were around until at least then.
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After Gamlingay William moved down to London, where he married twice in Islington, in 1859 and 1872. On both occasions he named his father as George Green, farmer. No mention of deceased on either occasion. - which doesn't mean he was necessarily still living
Samuel was baptised on 18 Jul 1841 so George could have died from 6 Jun 1841, census day, onwards and Ann a few weeks later after the birth. But there are no such burials in Clifton, nor a remarriage of Ann. They just seem to disappear.
There are trees on Ancestry with this family but none show what happened to the children other than William. Most seem to have Ann Kitchener wrong. Why I never trust online trees. Good for ideas only!
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The first son John, born 1833, per the 1841, a baker, married Frances Sole (of Clifton per subsequent censuses) in Poplar in 1862. His father was named as George Green, farmer (again not deceased) and one of the witnesses was Sarah Ann Green
Sarah Ann Green father George Green farmer (again not deceased) married in 1866 in Dalston, Hackney to William Kitchiner father William Kitchiner baker. Witnesses John and Frances Green. What odds they were related?
Samuel Green, baker, father George Green, farmer married Mary Ann Whitworth on 18 Jun 1865 at Clerkenwell. In 1871 aged 30 born Beds the family was living in Bethnal Green. It looks to be the right Samuel.
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So they all went to London. And Rhoda Lewinton married John William Morris. Reg Q1 1849 Islington district. 1851 census confirms she was born in Clifton and they are living at 7 Upper Ann street, Lambeth.
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Another thought. It seems curious that John and Frances Sole, both from Clifton should marry in London and Sarah and (presumably cousin) William Kitchener from Arlesley should also go to London. All Saints Clifton is a lovely church and I'm sure Arlesley's is just as good.
Could the missing parents have gone to London and changed their names for some reason?
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Hi and thank you for your help.
George and Ann had 4 children - John, William, Sarah and Samuel. It is through William that I am related to them.
I have done a lot of research on the Green family in Bedfordshire and London. But still haven’t answered where George and Ann disappeared.
I sent for the 1847 death certificate for George Green but it turned out to be the wrong one.
Well, I will keep on trying.
Many thanks.
Peter.
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Although I have no definite evidence, I think that George Green was born in Meppershall to John and Sarah Green of Woodhall Grange Farm. A bit unusual for John Green to marry Sarah Green. I am not sure if they were related? They were married in 1789 and were farming at Woodhall Farm from 1788 to 1820. John had three brothers - William, Warner and Thomas. There were three Warners in the family -
Warner Green b. 1774 - already mentioned above
Warner Green b. 1807 - the son of John and Sarah Green of Woodhall Farm
Warner Green b. 1809 - the son of Thomas Green and Sarah Green ( Porter) of Stanford Mill.
It is the second Warner ( b. 1807 at Woodhall) that is a puzzle as I can find no records of him on the census and only a possible death record in St. Lukes 1847.
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This is the conclusion that I came to in reply #5, although I was wrong about Warner in 1841 living in Clifton, who must have been the one baptised in 1809 from Stanford Mill, Southill, not the one baptised in 1807 in Meppershall who was married and was a policeman in London. Not helpful of the two of them to both have mothers named Sarah! (Later edit: not helpful either that I'd forgotten that six years ago I'd sorted out these Warners - see next post!)
But if by "b 1807" you mean born 1807, I don't necessarily agree. He was baptised in 1807 along with two other siblings so could have been born at any time between 1803 and 1807.
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The two Warners who were living together in Shefford in 1851, uncle and nephew, appear to have died in 1852 and 1853 in Biggleswade registration district. I don't suppose you have the death certs which should give ages and thus differentiate them? One or other of these, probably the younger, seems to have married in the Sep quarter 1851 in St Martin in the Fields, London, to Harriett Odell. The licence dated 28 Jul 1851 shows that Warner was of the parish of Compton (sic) in the county of Bedford, a bachelor (both Warners were bachelors in 1851). Compton looks to be an error for Campton, in which parish Shefford was situated.
It is the second Warner ( b. 1807 at Woodhall) that is a puzzle as I can find no records of him on the census and only a possible death record in St. Lukes 1847.
See a 2007 thread on this board which explains all - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=260328.10. There's a lot of information about Warner in this thread. He was 42 at death, a policeman.
Now it gets embarrassing, as when looking for inspiration for Warner Green in Ancestry trees I find that I have the 1807 Warner in my own tree, only because he married into my Daniel family from Southill. I also failed to realise that I'd done work on him for the 2007 thread. I show him as marrying Mary Elizabeth Whitteridge Spencer at St Andrew Holborn on 2 June 1834, both otp. She was born in wedlock, and was baptised as Whitteridge age 26 at Haynes Beds in 1834, shortly before she married, so I've no idea why she used the surname Spencer. I had established her maiden name as Whitteridge from the 1851 census living in St Luke with her brother William Whitteridge - Mary Green head widow 41 Lodging house keeper b Beds; children Elizabeth 14*, George 12, Mary Ann 9, Samuel 6, Fanny 3, all born St Luke; William Whitteridge brother unm 30 b Haynes, Beds. In 1841 her mother Martha née Daniel, and siblings were living at Peerless Row, St Luke, enumerated as Whittridge.
I can't find Warner or his eldest daughter Elizabeth in 1841 but living at Pool Terrace, St Luke were Mary E Green, not born in Middx, & George Green 2 b in Middx. The 2007 thread shows that their son Samuel was born at 22 Pool Terrace, taken from his birth cert, so this is the right family.
So it seems more than likely that it was the Warner Green baptised in Meppershall in 1807 who married Mary Elizabeth Whitteridge from Haynes, Beds in Holborn and he was the one who died in St Luke Middlesex in 1848 age 42. But as he was otp when he married in Holborn and as we can't find him in 1841, there's no nice neat link between Meppershall and St Luke. But it's the right Warner!
David
* There's an interesting baptism in Hoxton on 5 March 1890 of Elizabeth Sarah Green, born 16 Jan 1837, daughter of Warner and Mary Elizabeth, policeman. Mary Elizabeth Whitteridge's birth is registered in Cotton End Independent & Baptist Church book, so it looks as though she continued to be non-conformist after her marriage which is why I can't find infant baptisms of any of her children
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I looked at this topic last week & found a Warner Green buried at Clifton on 6 June 1853 aged 43 whose abode was Shefford.
Also by chance I have the Campton cum Shefford MIs to hand and there's an entry on a headstone of William Green died 13 July 1826 aged 54; also of Warner Green died Feb 1852 aged 78. This was next to grave of Martha late wife of John Green of Shefford who departed this life 2 June 1792 aged 49; which is next to grave of John Green who died 19 Dec 1809 aged 70. I assume they are all related.
Any use to you?
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Excellent! Thanks John. That fixes the two Warners who died in Shefford. Still don't know which one married Harriett Odell, but that's not relevant to this thread
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Maybe coincidence but in 1861 at 56 Tachbrook Street Westminster, Harriet Green widow age 40 b Northants. Living with her is brother Charless Odell age 36 b St Albans, Herts. Harriet is listed as a fundholder. In 1851 there is a Harriet Odell visiting the Carter family in Bedford born Northampton and of independant means, but she is listed as 40 (not 30) but other things seems to fit. One of the Carter children was born in Shefford as was a 12 year old lodger with the family, so the family have some connection with Shefford.
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Good find Lizzie!
My Mastermind specialist subject is following red herrings and chasing wild geese! I just can't resist.
Harriett seems to have had two more siblings. Sarah born 1807 in Woburn who married Robert Manderson in 1826 at St George Hanover Square, and Joseph born c 1821 in St Albans. The three of them were living together in Hornsey in 1881
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Interestingly from the Shefford MIs; in the plot next to William & Warner Green lies Mary Odell who died 14 Oct 1860 aged 82 years; is she related to Harriet Odell.
Another headstone there is for William Green born in Hitchin, Herts on 3rd May 1772; died at Shefford 20 Nov 1837 in his 66th year. Also of Elizabeth Green relict of the above died 23rd Feb 1848 aged 76 years.
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Found Harriet Odell (age 25) in 1841 living with Thomas (age 65) and Mary Odell (age 60) in St Albans (where two of her brothers were born). Thomas and Mary not born in county. Also with them is George Manderson age 6 born Herts. So the Mary buried in Shefford could be her mother
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George Manderson bapt 22 February 1835 in Redbourn Herts parents Robert Manderson and Sarah, so confirms that he's Harriet's sister Sarah's son
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I can't see any Green burials in Meppershall after 1761. If John and Sarah lived there until 1820 what then happened to them? Were they buried in Campton? John age 72 in 1842 and Sarah age 66 in 1835?
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Burials at Campton cum Shefford
John Green 15 May 1842 age 72 abode Campton
Sarah Green 27 Feb 1835 age 66 abode Campton
William Green 25 Nov 1837 age 65 abode Shefford
Warner Green 26 Feb 1852 age 78 abode Shefford (lately a baker)
BLARS have the will of Warner Green, butcher of Shefford who was buried at Clifton on 6 Jun 1853 aged 43. He names his brother Samuel Green & brother in law John Odell as executors & leaves to his beloved wife Harriet Green ......... & something to nephew James Weston. Will dated 14 Apr 1853 & witnessed by Joseph Odell, proved 28 Oct 1853.
There was another will of John Green, mealman & baker of Shefford dated 1 Dec 1809 which leaves £50 to son John Green of Woodhall near Campton and the main assets including Stanford Mill & his house in Shefford going to three sons Thomas Green, William Green & Warner Green so they can carry on the family bakering business.
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Familysearch has a marriage for Elizabeth Green dau of Thomas (not John) to James Weston son of Joseph at Southill on 8 Apr 1841 and baptism of James Joseph Weston son of James and Elizabeth at Biggleswade on 21 Sept 1845. Would need checking to see if Elizabeth's father is correct
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Just found bapt for Elizabeth Porter or Green on Familysearch on 4 oct 1793 at Campton, mother Sarah Porter or Green, a few years before she married Thomas Green. But she'd be too old to be the one who produced a child between 1841 and 1845
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On 1851 census Elizabeth Weston b 1807 Southill is living in High St, B'wade. She is the widow of a retired grocer. With her is James Joseph Weston age 5 and two daughters. There is a baptism of a female child to Thomas and Sarah Green on 16 Jan 1807 at Southill. Familysearch just has dots for christian name, so I suppose it was unreadable.
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There is a baptism of a female child to Thomas and Sarah Green on 16 Jan 1807 at Southill. Familysearch just has dots for christian name, so I suppose it was unreadable.
The PR transcript shows her as Mary, on 10 Jan 1807
But these are the Southill family possibly cousins of George, the subject of this thread.
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Yes, we've located cousins and siblings and no sign of George and Ann staying with or living near them in 1851. No clue either from where there children ended up. I have just trawled through the Clifton village history website but the only reference to Greens is the Green family from Shefford being vaccinated against smallpox in 1825. James Joseph Weston bought the Fox and Duck public house in 1869 - maybe spending his inheritance from uncle Warner. That's the one that became Clifton Arms for a few years and changed to the Clifton Korai just when we moved to the village.
I think the most likely thing is that George and Ann have died but far from home so very difficult to trace. Their youngest two children are noted as receiving poor relief in 1851, so that would indicate that their parents weren't able to support them. Since the parents aren't in the workhouse as paupers I think the only conclusion is that they are dead. Although George is recorded as a farmer on his children's marriage certificates, on the 1841 census he is "Ag Lab" so maybe he lost his job or became physically unable to carry on as a farm labourer. Maybe he worked for cousin Warner at Pedley Farm and wasn't kept on by the new tenants when Warner gave up the farm to become a butcher in Shefford. On one of the older threads on this family it was suggested they might have emigrated, but it would be unusual to leave small children behind - presumably to follow on later. But to be told by brother Warner (the policeman in London) that there were good job opportunities there seems more likely. To leave the children with a relative for a short time while they establish themselves just 50 miles away isn't unreasonable. But the plan went wrong when accident or illness befell them and the poor children found themselves orphans. Someone (possibly uncle William Kitchener) would have to apply for the Parish Relief on their behalf and I presume would have to satisfy the authorities that they were entitled to it by submitting copies of parents' death certificates.
A possible scenario.
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The first son John, born 1833, per the 1841, a baker, married Frances Sole (of Clifton per subsequent censuses) in Poplar in 1862. His father was named as George Green, farmer (again not deceased) and one of the witnesses was Sarah Ann Green
Sarah Ann Green father George Green farmer (again not deceased) married in 1866 in Dalston, Hackney to William Kitchiner father William Kitchiner baker. Witnesses John and Frances Green. What odds they were related?
Samuel Green, baker, father George Green, farmer married Mary Ann Whitworth on 18 Jun 1865 at Clerkenwell. In 1871 aged 30 born Beds the family was living in Bethnal Green. It looks to be the right Samuel.
As far as what happened to George Green’s children: they all moved to Middlesex/ London.
-Sarah ( b.1838) as mentioned above.
-Samuel ( b. 1841). On the 1911 Census is living in Hackney with his wife Mary Ann. Occupation - carpenter.
- William (b.1835) - 1871 Census he was a master baker. In 1911 living in Bow, East London with his youngest son Robert. William’s occupation - fishmonger.
- John ( b. 1833) - on 1861 Census working in a grocers shop in Highgate , North London, then in 1901 - the proprietor of a bakery and bakers shop in Southgate, Middlesex.
But still a mystery about parents - George and Ann.
Once again, thank you for the information, it will take me some time to take it all in.
Peter.