RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Monaghan => Topic started by: Neli on Saturday 14 December 13 00:31 GMT (UK)
-
Also posted in the Cavan forum:
A bit complicated this one, I am struggling to get any family help because I get the impression the facts have been rather 'swept under the carpet' over the years. So much so, that even those who remember the events only remember a very vague picture, not I think, because they are hiding the truth but, rather because it has been all they themselves have ever known.
My Grandmother Mary Ann Donohoe (1911-1969) was the daughter Bernard Donohoe 1873-?) and Kate Gorman (1876-1912). Mary Ann's mother, Kate died when she was very young. I can't discover what happened to Bernard after this but, I believe an aunt of Mary Ann's came back from America to look after her however, 12 years later the house where they lived burnt to the ground and the Aunt was tragically killed. At this point Mary Ann was sent to St Louis Convent in Monaghan to be brought up by the Nuns.
If anybody reads or replys to this message I know you will be asking which Aunt? When did she go to or come back from America, I don't know!!!!!
That is where the vagueness kicks in :-(
Also, although it would be frowned upon maybe today, it was certainly common enough practice then for the family of such children to step in and take over the upbringing of an orphan and I am also puzzled to know why this did not happen in my Grandmothers case. I have never been forward enough to confront my elderly Irish relatives with this question but, on skirting around it, I am met with the wall of vagueness.
As far as I can find Mary Ann had a maternal Aunt who was her Mothers twin sister,she married somebody Lynch of Kilcogy and lived until she was 95. She also had 2 maternal Uncles, Patrick and Terrence who I do not know much about as yet.
On her Paternal side she had a further 2 Aunts, Ann and Mary and an Uncle John.
What I am most interested to know is, what would the Convent in Monaghan have been like for her as an orphan who lived and was brought up there and why was she sent there.
I also have about a million other questions about this whole area of vague family history and would be delighted if anyone could help even a little.
-
Should probably have mentioned these events took place in and around the Kilcogy/Granard area of Cavan ::)
-
Link to post on CAVAN board:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=670871.new#new
There are lots of possible reason why Mary Ann would have been sent away to the convent- perhaps she was quite ill (or injured) after the fire and she went to the nuns to be cared for, perhaps there was a family connection to the convent (someone in the family a nun there?), etc.- but often it wasn't possible for relatives to care for young children (lack of money, poor living conditions, too many children of their own).
From the details you've posted this could be Kate's family in 1901-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cavan/Kilcogy/Kilcogy/1050440
Gorman family in 1911-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cavan/Kilcogy/Kilcogy/347812/
-
Marriage: Bernard Donohoe, July/Sept.1910 Grnard registration district, volume 3 page 127
Catherine Gorman on same page
Closest match I can find in 1911 is this one (married under 1 year which fits) but Bernard a good bit older than you indicated-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cavan/Derrin/Lisnananagh/337928/
-
Yes that is Kate's family, I have that link myself :-)
I am still unsure, the money part doesn't seem to ring true as from what I can make out the family as a whole were reasonably well off, (all land owning farmers) .
You may be right about the link to the Convent though as I have discovered one of Bernard's sisters, Ann, married a John Enright in Cavan who was meant to be quite wealthy. They lived in Cavan town along with their nephew Peter. [The story being that they could have no children of their own so Ann's brother John who had lots, sent them one of his to bring up as their own]. Peter did very well and went on to be a Priest.
I discovered that one of the teachers at the convent at the time (and probably a Nun although I haven't confirmed this) was an Eveleen Enright. I have not managed to establish any link between her and John but, it is an unusual name in both those parts of Ireland at that time which made me wonder.
The idea that Mary Ann was ill or injured is an interesting one that I had not previously considered, but, again, there is nothing in the oral history to indicate this although I realise this doesn't exclude the possibility. Hmmmm!
-
I have a couple of accounts of Bernard's age and his age varies wildly between the two, I took a best fit :-)
-
What puzzles me most about that census return is that Bernard's brother John seems to be 55 and living with them with no sign of a wife or dozens of children. This does not fit with the oral history at all. I have not managed to pin John down to anywhere else but, can only wonder if he was only spending the night with his brother or perhaps he was a late bloomer!
-
There was also a boarding school at St. Louis Convent, Monaghan and girls went there from age 12/13. Possibly your grandmother went there to be educated. I think the orphanage was known as St. Martha's which was part of St. Louis.
Mairead
-
If the family home burnt down and the aunt died as a result the it would have been a very tramatic time for Mary Ann (as well as the family being homeless) so perhaps it was felt best to send Mary Ann away for a while, she settled in there well or father felt unable to care for her on his own, and she stayed there for a number of years.
Have you tried checking to see if there would be any records for her stay there?
http://chooseireland.com/monaghan/st-louis-convent-heritage-centre/
http://stlouismonaghan.com/School%20History.htm
These pictures will give you an idea of what it looked like-
http://archiseek.com/2009/st-louis-convent-monaghan-co-monaghan/#.Uqw-wdJdWcc
-
The marriage certificate of Bernard & Kate will give you his residence at time of marriage* and father's name and occupation.
* this might, or might not, tie in with the 1911 census record I posted earlier
Mary Ann's birth certificate will also pin down the family's residence.
" have a couple of accounts of Bernard's age and his age varies wildly between the two, I took a best fit :-)"
Since civil registration of births started in 1864 it's important to know if he could have been born before this date (in which case there will be no birth certificate).
Marriage of Patrick Gorman, son of Edward, & Ellen Burns, daughter of Terence (1867)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGZ1-5TZ
Children of Patrick/Patt Gorman & Ellen Burns/Byrnes/Byrne-
Patt (1868) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F548-PP1
Mary Ann (1869) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5M3-DX8
? Ellen (1872) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGHD-WKM
Eliza (1875) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPBR-FLZ
Catherine (1876) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FP7Z-PMN
Bridget (1876) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FP7Z-PM6
Bernard (1877) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FG26-GNR
Terence (1879) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPTF-T6T
-
Irish Genealogy shows
Eveleen Johanna Augustine Enright
born 18 Sep 1887 6 Williams Place,Dublin
Parents
Thomas Enright and Ellen Murphy
Eveleen Enright B.A. at no 3 Mullaghmonaghan,Monaghan 1911 schoolteacher 23. 1901?
Parents at 58 Merrion Rd 1901
12 Pembroke Rd 1911 ,Thomas born Limerick ,Ellen born Kildare
-
Baptism for Eveleen-
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/bf30c30012624
-
Wow, thanks for all that ;D
I've added all the new bits into my tree. It seems Mary Ann had even more Aunts and Uncles than I thought!
Not sure if the Eveleen bit is just a 'wild goose chase' but, I found it interesting when I was hunting and it fits with the theory that Mary Ann may have had family in the school at Monaghan.
The mystery continues...
-
Let us know if there's any other details you want to try an follow up here :)
-
Thanks aghadowey, I was wondering which site you used to find all those baptism certs with such apparent ease. I am paying for one (not sure if I am allowed to mention names) and it didn't find any of those, all I had were the census records. It has found them now when I have put the exact dates in using your info but, that kind of defeats the point :-\
Also if you are ever on the Longford forum I have a mystery there that I could use some help with too (to be posted in the near future).
:D
-
The records for the Gorman children that I posted were extracted birth records from FamilySearch site which is free. I did a parent search (advanced search option at www.familysearch.org) and put in only name of father & mother.
-
Interesting house and building return for Mullaghmonaghan.
no 1 convent head Mother M A Farrell
no 2 Industrial school head Mother M A Farrell
no 3 Boarding school head Mother M A Farrell
so which did Mary Anne go to,boarding would suggest fee paying.
-
This looks a likely 1901 return ages a bit off with 1911
House no 9 in Urbal,Kill,Cavan
Anne Donohoe mother,widow age 70
John 35
Bernard 30
Owen 40 married to Margaret Arkins ,Jan Mar 1893,Granard,vol 3 page 182,children as follows
Charles 7
Mary Anne 5
Peter 3
Owen 1
by 1911 Owen senior and junior deceased,his wife Margaret still at Urbal but with extra child Julia age 15
1901 census no 6 lisnadaragh,Kilgolagh,Cavan
Julia Arkins 60
Julia Donohoe age 6.
-
forgot to mention there is a 52 yr old Patrick Donohoe servant staying with Owens widow in Urbal in 1911 might be another brother that you mentioned.
-
Hi dathai ;D
'Interesting house and building return for Mullaghmonaghan.
no 1 convent head Mother M A Farrell
no 2 Industrial school head Mother M A Farrell
no 3 Boarding school head Mother M A Farrell
so which did Mary Anne go to,boarding would suggest fee paying.'
That is interesting, sounds like Mary Ann[M A] (wild guess) was a busy woman ;)
Do you mind me asking where you got that info as I am having no luck trying to find Convent info, was it on the Census return?
The story I have always been told but, I have no idea how true it is or how much is embellishment (as with most oral history) is that the parents of Mary Ann had owned a good sized farm of land which was taken by the convent in return for her upbringing.
When I asked how that could possibly be legal, in my more militant teen years, I was stoutly told that was just what the Church did in those days.
Looking back at it now the story still seems as full of holes to me now as it did then :-\
Not quite sure where you are going with the house at Urbal bit (although Mum always said the family was from Urbal and her parents are buried there) would you mind explaining your chain of thought a little more ???
You could be right about Patrick although I was always led to believe the Donohoe's were relatively well off but, maybe there wasn't much left for poor Patrick after the others had taken their cut ;D
Sorry for playing with the smileys, I couldn't resist them, they are so cheerful and Christmassy 8)
-
The 1901 census was a follow on from reply 3 in which Aghadowey gave a possible return for 1911 for Bernard and John, most ages on census forms can be taken with a pinch of salt ,just that it is the nearest possible combination of the same names and if you were to purchase Owens marriage cert it will most likely let you know if compared with Bernards marriage cert whether they are the same family or not.
Re the convent
if you get Eveleen Enrights census return and scroll down to end of page you will see
''House and Building Return(form B1) click on this and the returns for Mullaghmonaghan appear.
Dathai.
-
If you view the House and Building returns for Bernards house in 1911 you will see that he lives at no 8 there is also another private dwelling no 12 which is vacant but is registered in Bernards name so he may have been well to do.
-
Neli, Your story is amazing as I know of the people you refer to. I once lived quite close to where Mary Ann Donohue lived in Urble. I am related to Katie Gorman who married Bernard. It's true their home was burned accidentally and their daughter was sent to a convent in Monaghan although she left some time later and went to live with Mary Ann. She is buried in Bruskey graveyard and attended school in Bruskey with the late Fr. Gerard Smith (this was confirmed by him). As regards what happened to their farm I don't have any information. As well I know Katie had a twin sister Bridget who was married to a Bartley Lynch, Mullahoran. Kind regards, Murphody.
-
Hi Neli, I can empathize with you. My grandparents lived in 1922 just over the border from Monaghan, my grandma suffered with melancholia after the birth of my mum in 1922 she tried to drown herself on several occasions and was admitted to Omagh Asylum. She had 2 boys already ages 4yrs and 6yrs old my grandad worked in the woollen mill and they lived in a very basic cottage at the end of a long lane and when I say basic I mean no proper facilities heating or water or plumbing. My mum was taken and put in Middletown St Louis Orphanage to be brought up by the nun,s I think by the priest but I have never got to the bottom of it because my grandads sister lived with them and other cousins close by. Why didn't they look after mum. She stayed there till she was abt 15yrs old. On retrospect now I think my mum was better off in the orphanage she was educated by the nuns, she was looked after in healthier conditions, she was lucky that the nuns who looked after and taught her were really nice and cared for mum lovingly we went back to visit them on many occasions. I still would like to know what really happened and would love to see a photo of my mum when she was a young girl, I have no photo's of my grandma either . Good luck with your research and getting more answers. Anne
-
I know this thread started a good while ago and neli may already have found this information but new Irish resources have come online in the last few years so I'll post just in case the details are useful.
Death of Bernard Donohoe in 1914- note he suffered from heart disease for 1 year which isn't that long after wife Kate died & informant is sister Kate Galligan-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1914/05294/4471777.pdf
Wife Kate has TB for 2 years according to her death registration so perhaps Bernard was worn out trying to look after ill wife and infant-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1912/05350/4490326.pdf
Daughter Mary Anne born just after 1911 census-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1911/01527/1619374.pdf