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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: lesleyhannah on Wednesday 18 December 13 16:12 GMT (UK)
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HI
We are researching the Buttall family from Topsham Devon, who we believe originated from Wrexham in Wales. We would be interested in hearing from anyone researching this family either in the UK or the US. Our family link is via Margaret Buttall born 1790 in Topsham.
We have seen reference to a book - Kane, Ronald W. "The Family of the Blue Boy" - about the family, but haven't been able to find it on the internet or elsewhere. We'd be very grateful if anyone knows where we could find this.
Thanks in advance for any help.
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The few notes at www.mawer.clara.net/loc-exeter.html may help, and the series of database entries at www.mawer.clara.net/sugarbbry.html , all regarding the Buttall family's businesses in sugar refining, may provide you with some useful references.
Bryan.
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http://www.llgc.org.uk/index.php?id=487
Just enter the name Buttall, nothing else, there are 7 hits for that name, , the earliest being Randle Buttall : will, 1684. Blacksmith of Wrexham .
This may be of some use.
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Thank you both for your replies. We have found some discrepancies in the internet accounts - some trees have children apparently born when the father was about ten, and others appear to miss out a generation - not difficult when all the men (and their wives) seem to have been named from a pool of half a dozen Christian names! The links you suggest are both helpful. Thank you both.
We'd like to hear from any other members of the family.
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Is this Margaret H/Nearder Buttall, parents Benjamin and Margaret? And is this her father?
"Suddenly, last night, on board his vessel the Elizabeth, lying at Exeter Quay, Captain Benjamin Buttall, of Topsham, formerly, and for many years, master of a London trader from this port, but late in the coal trade." (Exeter Flying Post, 12 March 1818)
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Yes, that's the family. Thank you, I hadn't seen the quote from the paper, which is very interesting. Not often we get info like that from such long-gone ancestors - and it really does make the research even more interesting.
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Robert Davy, of Wear (near Topsham), died a few days short of his 100th birthday and in reporting his death the Western Times, 6 Sept 1862 referred to -
TOPSHAM
The late Robert Davy Esq - ..... the recollections of such a man, whose life has extended over a century........ He used to say that he remembered when the grandfather of the present Mr Benjamin Buttall (now residing here) with others fitted out, in 1799, a ship called the "King George", of about 400 tons register, as a privateer, carrying 24 guns and 150 men. He used to tell that this vessel, of which Mr Buttall was captain, was placed on the "hard" opposite the churchyard to be "graved" or to clean her bottom. This was on a Sunday, a few days after she put to sea, and was never again heard of; it was supposed she foundered, having been a very old vessel, and so did no harm to the enemy.
(Am in Topsham at the moment, chasing Devon "rellies" - will see if I can unearth anything of the Buttalls)
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That's a fascinating piece of info that I hadn't found hanes teulu. We're discovering more about the family almost every day. OUr interest in the Topsham Buttalls was when they joined in marriage with the Pearce family, also from Topsham, so anything about the Pearces would also be welcome.
The Quaker connection with the Wrexham Buttalls is just coming to light in our searches - Martha Buttall married Thomas Wynne and after her death he travelled with William Penn to America.
Thanks again for your kind offer - hope you find plenty to add to your researches.
Regards
Lesley
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welsh wills on line
http://cat.llgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/gw/chameleon?skin=profeb&lng=en
I chose "Name" as the search key in the drop down menu "Choose" and "buttall" as the search name - 7 hits returned.
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This would be William Pearce, married Margaret on 9 Jan 1811 (extracted record FamilySearch)?
Re the "Blue Boy" (Gainsborough/Jonathan Buttall) - a sermon was published 29 Mar 1767 on the death of Mrs Elizabeth Buttall
"To Mr James Buttall, the following sermon, published at his request, is most humbly inscribed..........
Those in this assembly who have heard of the death of Mrs Buttall* ..........
* The truly excellent lady here spoken of, after a lingering illness, which she bore with exemplary patience and resignation, died March 13th at Wrexham in Denbighshire, whither she had retired for the air. She was a Consort of the Gentleman to whom this discourse is inscribed, and daughter to the late, and sister of the present Mr Jonathan Buttall, Soho - a family truly respectable in all its traditions".
I imagine "the present Mr Jonathan Buttall, Soho" is not the Jonathan Buttal, supposed subject of Gainsborough's "Blue Boy"? Perhaps the "Blue Boy's" father?
You have presumably seen Samuel Buttall's 1723 will which mentions inheriting property from George Buttall, Wrexham
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Hi,
The Journal of the Clwyd Family History Society, Hel Achau no 28 page 3 has the following article.
The Family of 'The Blue Boy', the Buttall family of Wrexham. See the Society Website clwydfhs.org.uk. Copies of back numbers can be obtained.
HTH,
Megran.
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RE BUTTALLS OF WREXHAM
I live in New Zealand and am a BUTTALL descendant. There are many descendants both here and in Australia who have come down through the BUTTALL/HODGES marriage when Mary BUTTALL, the daughter of Samuel (son of Randle and Jane) married Sir Nathaniel HODGES in London in 1702. Mary and Nathaniel's daughter Mary married Thomas GLASS MD in 1737, Thomas and Mary's GLASS'S daughter Ann married John LOWDER in 1778, John and Ann LOWDER'S daughter Mary Ann married John LEES in 1799, John and Mary Ann LEE'S son William Lowder LEES married twice. After the death of his first wife, Harriet TEW, he married Elizabeth KINNERSLEY in 1845 and they migrated to Melbourne, Australia and then onto New Zealand in 1864. They had 13 children, though John had also had 2 sons in his previous marriage to Harriet TEW. I am a great great grand daughter of William and Elizabeth LEES.
Through my research I have discovered a book first published in 1996 titled "Thomas Glass MD Physician of Exeter" by Alick Cameron. In it are photos of the BUTTALL Sugar House (now called The Retreat) in Topsham, Devon and I quote the following: " The Sugar House deserves mention, not least because the building is still standing. It had passed to Lady Hodges (nee Mary Buttall) from her relative Samuel Buttall (who was in fact her father), an importer of sugar from the West Indies, having purchased the building for his purposes in 1684. The raw sugar was brought to the port of Topsham in barrels, in the form of molasses, thence up the river by lighter, to be refined at the Sugar House and converted into sugar cones."
There are several other references to the BUTTALLS in this book.
It appears that the previous one or two generations of Buttall's in Wrexham were Quakers, though Samuel BUTTALL became a Baptist Minister from about 1690 in Plymouth. I have found the Baptism records of three (possibly six but parents not noted for the other three) of Samuel and Mary's children, namely Mary in 1680, Anthony in 1681, and An in 1685. The other tree were another Anthony in 1678, Nathanile in 1685 and Samuel in 1701. All six Baptism's took place in Charles Church, Plymouth, Devon. This church was bombed in the blitz and it's shell is left as a monument to those who lost their lives during the bombing raids of WWII.
I await further fascinating research snippets from other BUTTALL researchers.
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Thanks everyone for the many leads. Yvonne, I've sent a personal message to you - I can send some information about the family - still living so can't be made public. Look forward to hearing from you.
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hi there.
joined today. my husbands mother , still living, was a torquay pearce by birth. related to the owners of the London inn in torquay. we have just started looking into the family and have found the buttell of topsham connection etc etc
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Hi devondebs
I've sent you a personal message with my email address. Let me know if you have problems accessing it - can send information including living relatives which I can't put online. Have also traced the PearceButtall line back to Wrexham.
Look forward to hearing from you
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Yvonne, I am another descendant of Sir Nathaniel Hodges and Mary Buttall; my line goes down from their daughter Frances Hodges who married William Dry. I was struggling with this part of my tree until ancestry put the PCC wills online and now I have been able to add so many names! Unfortunately it's not so easy to add exact dates as most of this branch seem to have been non-conformists of one kind or another.
Anyway, some info that you may not have already: Samuel Buttall in his will which was written in 1718 and proved in 1723, mentions that his wife's mother the late Mrs Wood had left a sum of money to her daughter, his wife Mary, so I worked back from that date through possible Wood wills and found the will of a Joane Wood, widow, of Bristol, from 1713, and she mentions "my son in law Samuel Buttall and Mary my daughter his wife" plus "my grandson Nathaniel Hodges and Mary his wife", among many other names. It would definitely be worth you having a look at it if you haven't already. She also mentions "my niece Sarah Buttall and her son and daughter Jonathan and Anne", so there is another connection to the Buttalls which I haven't figured out yet.
I then managed to find the will of Anthony Wood of Bristol, sugar baker, proved 8 Apr 1686, which mentions his daughter Mary Buttall, the wife of Samuel Buttall, and again, it mentions lots of other names. Another one for you to look at.
I haven't managed to find the marriage of Anthony Wood to Joane yet. There are baptisms at Bristol for some of their children: Samuell 1668, Sarah 1669, Elizabeth 1671 and Joseph 1673 but I haven't found Mary's baptism nor another sister Ann yet. They would both likely be older so maybe not born in Bristol if Anthony and Joane moved there from elsewhere.
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Thank you, katerimmer ... some years ago I placed a summary of Anthony Wood's will on my website at www.mawer.clara.net/willsZ.html#wood and added the query regarding the Buttall name. Thanks for the confirmation.
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Thank you so much Katerimmer. I do have Frances and William Dry's marriage recorded on my family tree but that is as far as that line goes. I have actually used the name Frances as the second name for one of my daughters. I descend from Frances' sister Mary who married Dr Thomas Glass. I will endeavour to down load the Wills you mentioned. I already had the Samuel Buttall one but it is wonderful to have the other names to look up.
Thank you also Bryan Mawer. I will see if I can purchase your book "Sugar Refiners and Sugar Bakers".
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I agree, the access to wills has been a blessing in family history searches! Because I've been concentrating on the Topsham Buttalls I haven't added the details relating to Yvonne and katerimmers ancestors. However, I did take notes that Samuel Buttall (son of Randall) who married Mary Woods had a brother Jonathan (born c1634??) who had children Jonathan and Ann. This was the branch of the family that migrated not to Topsham, but to Battersea London (and includes the Jonathan Buttall painted by Gainsborough). I noted that Jonathan's will mentioned his sister Martha Wynne. As I say I didn't go into the details too closely, just used the wills to verify the connection with the Topsham Buttalls. You may have this info already - if not i hope it helps.
Always happy to share my findings with other family members and look forward to hearing from other Pearce/Townsend connections with the Buttalls!
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I must have completely missed ancestry.com's announcement of the PCC Wills so was very grateful when this was pointed out by you Katerimmer. They are a bonus and add certainty to what may have been a tentative link or provide previously unknown names. Martha Elizabeth BUTTALL was born 20 June 1627 at Wrexham, Denbighshire, Wales and married Dr Thomas WYNNE Jr abt 1656 in Wrexham. They had one known child, a son named Jonathan. Martha died abt 1670 in Flintshire and her husband remarried Elizabeth CHORLEY in 1676. In 1682 Thamas and Elizabeth WYNNE migrated to Pennsylvania, USA on board the ship 'Welcome'. I assume Jonathan Wynne migrated with them. This is part of the Quaker link to Pennsylvania.
Yvonne
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I have now managed to find the marriage of Anthony Wood (father of Mary Wood) - he married Joan Chambers 16 Nov 1654 at St Mary the Virgin, Twickenham, Middlesex. Anthony was "a singleman of the parish of St Matthew Friday Street London." Joan was the daughter of Humphrey Chambers DD, rector of Pewsey in Wiltshire. There is a baptism for Mary Wood, daughter of Anthony, 21 Jan 1675 at St Matthew Friday Street, and for her sister Ann 6 Feb 1656 at the same place. Anthony was buried at St Matthew Friday Street in April 1686, although he was living in Bristol by then.
One of Joan Chambers's sisters was Margaret Chambers who married a Joseph Strange 8 Nov 1649 at St Botolph Aldgate, London, and they had a daughter Sarah who is mentioned in Humphrey Chambers' will (1662). And to get back to the subject of the Buttalls, I'm sure that Sarah Strange must be the niece Sarah Buttall who was mentioned in Joan Wood's will (1713) and that she must have been married to Jonathan Buttall (the one who died in Battersea in 1695, brother of Samuel) but I have not been able to find their marriage to prove it. Jonathan Buttall's will mentions "aunt Mrs Ann Smith", who was another of the Chambers sisters, married to a John Smith, and none of the others seems to have had a daughter Sarah.
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Thank you again, katerimmer ... the London details of Anthony Wood, his wife and family are new to me and something I will now try to follow up. I need now to show that Anthony Wood was a refiner before he moved to Bristol to become a partner of Thomas Ellis at the Whitson Courth Sugarhouse.
There's a 97 page history of the 'Whitson Court Sugar House, Bristol, 1665-1824' by the late I V Hall (a local historian who specialised in researching the Bristol Sugar Industry in the 1940s onwards ... his notes, files, essays etc are held at Bristol Record Office) published in 'Transactions of the Bristol & Gloucestershire Archaeoligical Society for 1944, Vol 65', which can sometimes be found for sale s/h online, is certainly held by Cheltenham Library, and probably in the Bristol libraries and archives.
I V Hall researched everything in depth, but he hadn't managed to find Anthony Wood's marriage, or his earlier children. His work is a very interesting read.
He suggests Wood was "a man of some wealth and skill as a sugar baker at the time of his arrival in Bristol."
The taxes for St James Bristol 1667 show the rental for the sugarhouse premises split between Ellis and Wood, 4s 6d and 1s 8d. He suggests that Wood had ownership of at least one of the tenements on site, possibly confirmed by its passing to Morgan Smith, Wood's son-in-law, on his death. (Morgan Smith married Elizabeth Wood, and ran a sugarhouse nearby, with his son of the same name continuing the business after his death around 1716. His will at www.mawer.clara.net/willsZ.html#smith2 ).
It would appear that Anthony Wood did much of the buying of the raw sugar, that often arrived in Bristol by devious routes.
Son Joseph Wood was apprenticed to a Bristol grocer, "his widowed mother Joan finding apparel" (1688).
By 1704 both sons Joseph and Samuel had property worth £600 (Poll Bk).
In 1696 Mrs Wood lived in Barrs Lane, and there's a suggestion that a few years earlier she may have been involved in business with Morgan Smith.
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https://archive.org/stream/historyofolderno00palm#page/n9/mode/2up
history of the older nonconformity of Wrexham and its neighbourhood
Lots of early Buttall`s are in here.
http://freespace.virgin.net/jill.farndon25/B.html
Also some clues here, the ones buried in the Dissenters ground seem to be the same ones in the Palmers book.
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Mary Buttall married Sir Nathaniel Hodges. Has anyone information about his parents?
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Mary Buttall married Sir Nathaniel Hodges. Has anyone information about his parents?
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Yes, I do! They were Baptists. The book "A Baptist Governor of Madras in 1716" mentions Nathaniel as a schoolfriend of Joseph Collet (born about 1673), at a mathematical school run by Benjamin Morland (which would be Hackney Academy), when the Collet family were living at Hoxton Square in London, and says that Nathaniel was later taught at Taunton by a Matthew Warren, Oxford graduate. But this book also says that Nathaniel inherited a large estate on the death of Sir William Hodges in 1714, which is not backed up by Sir William Hodges' will. It seems that it was generally known that he had an inheritance from a wealthy uncle, but not who the uncle was.
Nathaniel and Mary's eldest son was named Joseph Jory Hodges, named after Joseph Jory, who was actually the rich uncle in question. Nathaniel was appointed administrator of Joseph Jory's estate as his will could not be found, and the other heir was Frances Bladen, Joseph's niece. (Frances' maiden name was Jory.) So Nathaniel must have been Joseph Jory's nephew. Joseph was baptised in 1646 in Plymouth, Devon, the son of Nicholas Jory, a tailor, and Jenefer nee Godfrey. Another of their children was Mary, baptised in 1636, and there is the marriage of a John Hodges to a Mary Jory 27 Dec 1660 at St Andrew, Plymouth. So this couple must be Nathaniel's parents. There is a daughter Mary baptised 26 Jul 1662 at St Andrew, Plymouth, who died in infancy, but I suppose Nathaniel and any other children were baptised as adults because of the family's Baptist faith, and the records haven't survived.
One of the newspaper reports about Nathaniel's later life mentions some joke about his background being in "saving soles", implying that his father was a shoemaker, which could well be true if his maternal grandfather was a tailor.
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Thanks katerimmer. That is a start.
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Just to put in my three pennorth! - there are some Wrexham Buttall entries on
my website. At the moment they are listed under Butler.
Hope you find something useful there.
Jillrose
www.clwydsurnames.org.uk
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Re. "saving soles", The History of the English Baptists 1740 -
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=aNQsAAAAYAAJ&redir_esc=y
"Search inside" for Hodges - pages 131/132 refute the claim of his being "in trade".
Survey of St. Dunstan's Stepney, 1905 - Churchyard and Monuments
Sir Nathaniel Hodges, Knight (1727). Altar tomb much broken and decayed. Arms 3 crescents and a canton impaling a bordure. Crest on a ducal coronet over a knight's helmet, a crescent.
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good to have a second opinion
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Re. "saving soles", The History of the English Baptists 1740 -
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=aNQsAAAAYAAJ&redir_esc=y
"Search inside" for Hodges - pages 131/132 refute the claim of his being "in trade".
Survey of St. Dunstan's Stepney, 1905 - Churchyard and Monuments
Sir Nathaniel Hodges, Knight (1727). Altar tomb much broken and decayed. Arms 3 crescents and a canton impaling a bordure. Crest on a ducal coronet over a knight's helmet, a crescent.
Yes, I wasn't saying that Nathaniel was "in trade", but that it is quite possible that his father was.
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Do we know when Nathaniel Hodges received his knighthood ?
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Yes, he was knighted by King George I, 24 Feb 1726/7.
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Thank you. I was trying to work out the timeline for Nathaniel Hodges ... maybe ...
1725 inherited from Joseph Jory,
1725 "laid down his ministry",
1725 purchased a half-share in the Buttall sugarhouse (so now "in trade"),
1727 knighted,
1727 died.
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Hi ... Benjamin Buttall was my 6 x grandfather and have only just started investigating this line ... any information anyone has would be most gratefully received ... i have just basic knowledge at the present time x
Amanda Loman (Hopper)
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I researched this family tree for a friend of my son. I must say in all the years I have done family research the Buttall family has been the most interesting - every twig of the tree threw up a new surprise. Obviously I don't have permission from the family to put this information online - and because of poor health I am no longer able to pursue the research myself. However if you message me privately via rootschat I will pass your details to my son's friend and ask his family to contact you.
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Thanks for getting back to me ... how do i send a message ... only just joined today and not sure where to go!
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Hello There
I recently discovered that Sir Nathaniel Hodges was my 7th Grandfather whilst researching my familly history on Ancestry. (or so I am led to believe)
The Link to the Buttall Family comes from the Pipon Family.
I now live close to Wrexham and have become aware that Randall Buttall (9GF) who was a Blacksmith and would really like more about the Wrexham Buttall Family and would be very grateful for any information please.
Thank you
Lucinda
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A very warm welcome to Rootschat. Randall/Randle mentioned here - click on headings to view originals/items in full -
https://journals.library.wales/search?query=buttall+AND+wrexham&range%5Bmin%5D=1735&range%5Bmax%5D=2007
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Thank you
this is brilliant
Lx