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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: meggles on Wednesday 01 January 14 02:11 GMT (UK)
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Hi - I have a Roy Elliott born 29th July 1912 in Sydney - according to his WW2 record.
(Roy died 1997)
I am looking for a birth certificate for Roy. He was raised by Charlotte Anne Elliott nee Chamberlain and Mathew Elliott but they were not his parents, the story in the family is that one of the female family members was his mother.
In a old handwritten family tree document that my grandmother had written it had Roy Elliott under Jessie M Chamberlain (charlotte Anne Elliott nee Chamberlain's sister)
Jessie M Chamberlain had 2 children that I am aware of out of wedlock, but they both died young, I can't find any evidence that she had a third baby - Roy.
I was hoping that with the release of the 1913 births today I would of found Roy under one of the family names - or maybe under Elliott, I had already done a good search of the 1912 index.
So I guess I am asking if anyone would have any ideas for me to search now?
Roy never knew who his real parents were so all documentation has Charlotte and Matthew as the parents. Or is this a lost cause?
cheers
Meggles
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ROY CHAMBERLAIN FATHER WALTER MOTHER CHARLOTTE AT GRANVILLE REF# 30848/1898
Neil ???
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Possible marriage:
CHAMBERLAIN WALTER CHAMBERS CHARLOTTE NEWTOWN Ref#2517/1882
Several Walter marriages, but only this one to a Charlotte.
Might not be of use, but you never know.
AC
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ROY CHAMBERLAIN FATHER WALTER MOTHER CHARLOTTE AT GRANVILLE REF# 30848/1898
Neil ???
Death of above child : :(
1898
CHAMBERLAIN - Roy
F. Walter
M. Charlotte
Registered at Granville, NSW
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I see had seen the Registered death of A Roy Chamberlain in 1898 and wondered if there could be a mistake?
There are three marriages of Charlotte CHAMBERLAINS. AC
HENRY A BURTON TO CHARLOTTE E CHAMBERLAIN AT WOOLLAHRA REF# 3158/1885
MATTHEW ELLIOTT TO CHARLOTTE A CHAMBERLAIN AT BERRY REF# 2451/1890
AND ALSO
FREDERICK J STEBBING TO CHARLOTTE E CHAMBERLAIN AT SYDNEY REF# 8264/1901
I Don't know which one is correct but suspect Matthew Elliot
I also don't know if any of the above Charlotte's are related/Same person
Neil
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I can't find the birth of a Roy with mother Jessie either. Perhaps he was registered with a different given name.
Jessie M CHAMBERLAIN had two illegitimate children in 1904 and 1907 who died as infants, so did she have another in 1912 or did she marry in the same district as her sister?
10071/1907
DAVIS George H
CHAMBERLAIN Jessie M
District Berry
2711/1919
MOGLER Samuel S
CHAMBERLAIN Jessie M
District Berry
Cando
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Hi Everyone
the Roy Chamberlain born in 1898 is not mine, my Roy was Born 1912. I had been hoping that I was going to find him as a Chamberlain for his birth but no luck, I have also tried all the names of the married sisters as well.
I guess it is possible that he had a completely different name at birth and when Charlotte and Mathew took him in they changed his name - but wouldn't there be some record of this? Roy received the pension so would he have not needed a birth Certificate for this?
I will keep digging, thank you so much for your help
cheers
Megan
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WW2 enlistment
ELLIOTT ROY : Service Number - N237796 : DOB - 29 Jul 1912 : POB - SYDNEY NSW
Place of enlistment - ARNCLIFFE NSW : Next of Kin - MEGLER JESSIE
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Hi Cando
You have caught something I totally missed. Jessie M Chamberlain getting married in 1907. This has to be my Jessie as it was the only Chamberlain family in Berry - but why did she marry as a Chamberlain in 1907 and then marry in 1919 also as a Chamberlain (the marriage to the Mogler is the only one I ever knew and I know her children from this marriage)
I will order the certificate straight away - this could help solve the mystery because I am sure Roy is Jessie's child
thank you thank you
cheers megan
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Could be him
Death
GEORGE H DAVIS, FATHER JOHN, MOTHER ADELAIDE, AT SYDNEY REF 8664/1911
Neil
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Do you know of a Hilda and a Constance Chamberlain with mother Jessie M
Neil
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I do thank you - I have their death certificates. I have collected as much as possible to see if I can find the connection to Roy. I really feel that the next step should be to get the marriage certificate of the George Davis to Jessie Chamberlain to confirm that it is my Jessie. If George died in 1911 and Jessie was already pregnant with Roy this could explain why she gave Roy to her sister - but I still need to find the Birth registration of Roy. I am going to try under a few different spellings and see how I go.
cheers
Megan
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Have you checked this fellow out. :o
Birth
ROY HEGGEN FATHER FREDERICK, MOTHER JESSIE M, AT BALMAIN SOUTH REF#13642/1912
Could be just a red herring, but :o
Neil ;)
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The G.H. who died in 1911 appears to have been George Henry Davis, aged 55, director of Hoffnung & Co; he married Katie Victoria Eugenie Lydia (nee Davis) in 1884 in Brisbane. His wife died in 1942.
It is possible that she was not widowed but that something else happened with her George to cause her to revert to her maiden name. If you or a relative have a copy of the 1919 certificate it would be good to know how she is listed - divorced, "spinster", etc.
This newspaper report of the 1907 marriage gives him only as Mr Geo Davis, of Sydney:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/114352217
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Mmm ... just a bit of a longshot ... and 1911 (rather than 1912). ;D
Birth NSW
31826 / 1911
DAVIS - Roy
Parents: George and May
Registered: Paddington
[Jessie's death notice gives her second name as "May" (might she have used this name to register a birth if she was maybe estranged from her husband George ? ) Noticed too that Jessie's 1904 daughter's birth was registered at Paddington ? ] :-\
~ Lu
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May I please be a tad pedantic on this occasion.
It is simply NOT possible to determine from the NSW BDM index if the death in NSW is for a person whose birth registration is also found on the NSW BDM index. The indexes for both birth and death list the given names (of deceased and of deceased's parents) as supplied by the informant/s. The NSW BDM district does not need to be the same geographical boundaries as the Municipal boundaries. So, Granville emcompasses a larger area than just the suburb.
It may well be the 1898 death is for an infant, BUT the NSW BDM index does not give any clues to confirm or eliminate that. It is simply speculation without a certificate/official transcription or at least a headstone transcription or funeral/death notice from the newspapers, or a family member having kept a funeral card.
Cheers, JM
ROY CHAMBERLAIN FATHER WALTER MOTHER CHARLOTTE AT GRANVILLE REF# 30848/1898
Neil ???
Death of above child : :(
1898
CHAMBERLAIN - Roy
F. Walter
M. Charlotte
Registered at Granville, NSW
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Could be him
Death
GEORGE H DAVIS, FATHER JOHN, MOTHER ADELAIDE, AT SYDNEY REF 8664/1911
Neil
The G.H. who died in 1911 appears to have been George Henry Davis, aged 55, director of Hoffnung & Co; he married Katie Victoria Eugenie Lydia (nee Davis) in 1884 in Brisbane. His wife died in 1942.
George H. DAVIS death notice SMH 24th Aug 1911 ... "beloved husband of Kate"
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article15268579
cheers :)
cupoflife
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Hi Everyone - thank you again for all your ideas.
I think that I need to wait for the marriage certificates for both of Jessie M Chamberlain's marriages before I can confirm a few things.
1. the parents names of George H Davis (then I should be able to track him down and see what happened to him.
2. what Jessie had as her status on her 1919 marriage - she married a Jew so I thought that this could be something to do with why she converted back to her maiden name (wild guess so far)
3. in 1907 when George and Jessie married, Jessie had a child out of wedlock in June of 1907 and the baby died in july 1907 - in these records there is no mention of George at all.
The bad news if the the transcription service i use (which takes 1-3 days) is on holidays until the 20th of Jan, so I have a bit of a wait. I thought of using a diffrent one but they all seem to have a 3-4 week wait on delivery.
I will keep you all posted.
cheers
Megan
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Hi there,
I can see three births indexed as being registered in the Sydney metro area in 1913 that may be worth following through, two are also indexed a second time, but I cannot easily see the Marrickville lad being twice indexed.
CANTERBURY DISTRICT
#2868
A Male FOUNDLING, also indexed under UNKNOWN surname and UNKNOWN male given name.
MARRICKVILLE DISTRICT
#6839
An UNKNOWN surname, Unnamed Male
BUT NO ENTRY under foundling
NEWTOWN DISTRICT
#27205
A Male FOUNDLING, also indexed under UNKNOWN surname and UNKNOWN male given name.
Re the 1898 Roy Chamberlain… there’s also one in 1897. I realise that meggles has eliminated these chaps but may I note:
RChat’s Australian Resources Board http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=399.0
then it’s NSW Child Board http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0
then the Sydney Benevolent Asylum Index (the online index only goes to 1900, but I am adding this here to help demonstrate to others following this thread some of the difficulties you may well have encountered)
On that Asylum Index:
There’s a Roy CHAMBERLAIN admitted 31 August 1897, and discharged 6 Sept 1897 and there’s a Violet Chamberlain admitted 21 August 1897 aged 20, and discharged aged 20 on same day as Roy was discharged. So, to me, the NSW BDM index gives this 1897 as #18681 and Violet is indexed as Violet E. I would expect Meggles is looking for 1912-1913 entries along that same general pattern.
So, may I also mention :
When searching on NSW BDM online, although they have not restored the usual wild card option, you can at least search for say r?y (in case the indexers in the 1930s misread the “o” for “a” etc). You only need enter 1912 – 1913 and the given name as ‘ r?y ’ to give yourself a wider spread to look through.
Cheers, JM
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WW2 enlistment
ELLIOTT ROY : Service Number - N237796 : DOB - 29 Jul 1912 : POB - SYDNEY NSW
Place of enlistment - ARNCLIFFE NSW : Next of Kin - MEGLER JESSIE
Has this find from wivenhoe been followed up?
Cheers JM
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That is where Megan sourced the year of birth.
Hi - I have a Roy Elliott born 29th July 1912 in Sydney - according to his WW2 record.
(Roy died 1997)
I am looking for a birth certificate for Roy.
cheers
Meggles
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"...all documentation has Charlotte and Matthew as the parents (of Roy)".
What are the documents that identify Roy as son of Matthew and Charlotte ELLIOTT, and can you indicate if Roy is giving this information about himself eg his marriage certificate, or if someone else is giving his parents as Matthew and Charlotte ELLIOTT eg death certificate.
The WW2 record would be useful to see how Roy identifies Jessie MEGLER.
Sometimes children moved between closely related families due to illness of mother, or family dramas etc..... which might have been happening to Jessie. Roy might have been brought up by the Elliotts but knew them to be aunt and uncle.
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That is where Megan sourced the year of birth.
Sorry Dundee, my poor wording.
I was trying to find out if there has been an application made to the NAA to have those service records digitised. It can take several months as the NAA listing shows the file has not yet been examined (by Dept of Defence in case it needs "de-dacting" .
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx for full service record
versus WWII nominal roll
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/VeteranCertificate.aspx?VeteranID=339899
Cheers, JM
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My brain has gone to sleep, must be the heat :-[
For some reason I was thinking that the next of kin was his wife so the service record would probably not offer any extra family background, but as it appears to be Jessie (nee CHAMBERLAIN) then it is essential to see what it says.
Debra :D
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Hi - I have applied for the ww2 records but they will take up to 3 months.
I have also requested the 2 marriages for Jessie Chamberlin but they will take 3 weeks.
The violet chamberlain who had Roy chamberlain was Jessie's sister which I have all the records on. She named her son Roy but he died in 1904. I have always thought Roy Elliott was named after this boy. Violet and Jessie were close sisters.
Roy Elliott never knew who his real parents were and and all the documents I have are documents which Roy would of provided this info. On Charlotte Elliott's death cert Roy is not mentioned as her child so it was common knowledge that he was not biologically hers.
The fact is that Roy Elliott has to have some evidence of birth somewhere I just need to look in the right place.
Cheers Megan
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Could it be this one? The only thing going for it is the name Roy Davis. I know Gunnedah is out of the area, but people do travel.
GUNNEDAH 1912
#29624 DAVIS, ROY father not named, mother LILLIAN H
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Roy Davis b. Gunnedah 1912 appears to have died in 1913. :(
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/17979221
- Jessie's death notice (Roy not referenced, but I don't think that says much either way)
Son Richard died in WWII:
http://www.sydneymemorial.com/registrydetails.asp?ID=387
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Hi
May be a very long shot but, there is a WW1 file for a Frederick James Oakman aka George Davis, born England, discharged in England.
Muss
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Hi everyone - not sure if I should start a new thread or not?
The marriage certificates arrived for the 2 marriages of Jessie May Chamberlain and they have her as a spinster for both marriages. The first marriage was to George Henry Davis in 1907 who was born in 1878 in Shoalhaven, NSW (father George Henry and mother Mary Carmody) The witness's at the wedding were her nephew and her brother. They were both living at Harley Hill (Berry)
So then I have looked for a death for George Davis - and potentially there is one in Sydney but in 1907. This is the one that makes the most sense, the only reason I can think that she remarried as a spinster and her maiden name in 1919 was because she was married for such a short time that it was like she was never married.......
But then I have found a George Davis in the ww1 records who was born in 1878 Shoalhaven (going by his age) and he is married to a Minnie Davis (NOK) when I look at the nsw BMD there is only one George Davis born around about this time in Shoalhaven - so is this the George that married my Jessie and then why is he now married to Minnie and why is Jessie a Chamberlain and a Spinster when she got married in 1919?????
Meggles
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Also just found the death notice of George's mother and George is listed (not mentioned as deceased)
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Have you found the marriage for George and Minnie Davis?
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There is a couple of options but the one that I think it is is in 1907 as well. They had quite a few children including a boy named Roy.
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- the George Henry Davis that married Minnie Croft in 1907 - died in 1944 - parents were George and Mary Ann. Still doesn't help me - I think I need to order the death certificate from 1907 and rule that out first - dose anyone else have any ideas?
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Hi Meggles
Glad to hear that you were able to solve this mystery.
Regards
Jennaya
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Hi
May be a very long shot but, there is a WW1 file for a Frederick James Oakman aka George Davis, born England, discharged in England.
Muss
Hi
FYI
Frederick James Oakman was my Grandfather. He was born 1894 at West Ham
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Hi - Welcome to Rootshcat
Thank you for that info - I Have solved all of my mystery now and have followed my fella through -so no connection. thank you though.
Happy Hunting
cheers
Meggles