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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Clackmannanshire => Topic started by: Reiver on Wednesday 01 January 14 18:36 GMT (UK)
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Tobias Balk married Janet Vanan in the parish of Clackmannan on 19th December 1746 (per SP image). Ten months later their son John Bachop was baptised also in Clackmannan. (John Bachop lawful son of Tobias Bachop and Janet Vanan, Clackmannan (per SP Image)).
It is apparent that parish clerks had great difficulty in spelling the surname Bauchope, Bachop or similar. How should it be pronounced? But Balk, Baulk etc ?
Based on her baptism date, Janet appears to be about 15 when she married Tobias. SP provides three Tobias Bauchops who could be Janet's husband. All three baptised between 1710 and 1714 - one in Alloa, the others in Clackmannan. However a marriage between a 37 yr old and a 15 year old?
Not knowing the area could anyone suggest a iikely graveyard, please? Inscriptions recorded?
Any other thoughts please?
Regards
Reiver
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Hi Reiver
Happy New Year to you :)
Would naming pattern help with children's names maybe?
John b. 1747 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYKJ-5Z6 ...would fit in maybe with one of the birth entries you likely have seen? https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYKX-MMK
Some a/try material also shows other children for Tobias and Janet:
Andrew b. 1749
Margaret b. 1752
James b. 1755
No reference to source for these though that I can see so far :-\
Monica
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Happy New Year, Reiver and Monica! :)
Tobias and Janet appear to be my 5x greats, so I've also been pursuing the evidence to pin these two down. There is a transcription in SP of Margaret's baptism on 28 March 1752 that tallies with Monica's find, but it spells the parents' names as Tobias Bauk and Janett Vannan. However, the name of my 3x great-grandmother, Mary (daughter of John), is spelt consistently as 'Bauchop' in the transcriptions and images of SP.
So yes, Reiver, name-spelling wasn't the parish clerk's strongest point, I suppose. My guess is that they tended to spell phonetically. I've seen the Bauchop name also spelt 'Bishop', but I suspect that it is commonly pronounced with a soft 'ch', as in the Scottish 'loch', which might explain the Balk or Bauk by some clerks.
I'd be as interested as you to hear suggestions as to a likely graveyard. I've seen four Tobias's in SP who were born between 1710 and 1717, and two Janet Vannans, one born in 1700 and the other in 1731. An age difference of 14 years isn't beyond the realms of possibility and neither is a marriage at 15-16 in those days.
Regards
Ian
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And a Happy New Year to you two, Monica and Ian as well as all who read this :) :)
I'll try and do more on naming patterns but I need to discover any siblings of Janet Vannan. I've found four of their children (cannot find more ): John and the three you posted - all via SP. Incidentally, John Bachop; Andrew Balk; Margaret Bauk and James Baulk ;D The 'ch' sound as in loch does suggest a reason for the variety of spellings.
Tobias and Janet are my 5 X greats as well. Son John and his wife Margaret Duncanson were my 4 X greats.
I've found just 3 Tobias births in the period 1710 to 1717 - though there was a Thomas.
10th December 1710 son of John Bachop & Helen Henderson
31st October 1712 son of Tobias Bachop & Jean Arthur
3rd December 1714 son of John Bachope & Anna Mortimer
The first was in Clackmannan parish and the other two in Alloa (Clackmannan) parish? How do these differ please?
I think I will discount the Janet born 1700. Age 46 at marriage and then 4 children doesn't quite ring true. Marriage at 15 (baptised 1731, possibly not soon after birth] is OK but she married one of three men (in 1746) of 32, 34 or 36. The youngest one perhaps is the best candidate - for now anyway :) :)
Regards
Reiver
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Maybe another way to review this is to also look at the various Tobias Bachop (....and all its spelling variations!) who were having children 1730-1780 (or some suitable range) and try and connect these to possible births you have both found for a possible for Tobias by way of names used for children etc.
For example, there seems to be:
- Tobias Bachop and Janet Vanan...you both seem to have children for them, as showing so far.
- Tobias Bachop and a Jean Carr...familysearch has a number of children for them.
- Tobias Bachop and a Catherine Hall...from a/try trees and also here https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/MWQ7-MHR, but overall, limited, so hard to more that read and wonder ::) Their marriage entry given as being on 6 Apr 1739.
- Tobias Bachop and Jean Simpson...a marriage entry showing here in 1733 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/MWQ7-MHR
We like puzzles for sure...we must all be mad ;D
Monica
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Hi Reiver
I misread the Thomas birth as Tobias - sorry. I blame the after-effects of New Year!
I take your point about the Janet born in 1700 and I agree that a 1731 baptism does not necessarily mean a birth that year, even though it is a December baptism and the normal practice was to baptise as soon as possible after birth. Even so, a marriage at 15 was not unknown in those days.
If we are right that the 1731 baptism relates to 'our' Janet, I've found six siblings, all born to John Vannan and Bessie Lin:
1 04/10/1719 - ELIZABETH
2 25/12/1715 - ISABELL
3 31/12/1717 - JAMES
4 03/05/1713 - JOHN
5 27/03/1722 - MARGARET
6 30/05/1725 - MARY
But now I need to look at what Monica has added.
Family history is so stimulating! :)
Regards
Ian
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Ian, I think the marriage of John Vannan and Bessie Lin (great name that one!) shows in 1711. Two entries that year on SP. One in Clackmannan and one in ? (banns & marriage most likely).
From 1711 to c. 1731, a good average 20 yr range for children (poor women is all I will say :-X)
Monica
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Yes, indeed, Monica. Thank you.
To help establish some parameters, I'm clear from the OPR birth record and the statutory death record on SP of my 3x great-grandmother, Mary Bauchop (1781-1870), that her father was John Bauchop, a weaver. The only John Bauchop/Bachop I've been able to find so far is the son of Tobias and Janet Vanan/Vannan.
This doesn't rule out the possibility of another John Bauchop, I guess, but it strongly points to Tobias and Janet being the right ones.
Ian
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And then your Mary Bauchop married Michael Penman, did she? Mine did, and one of several children was William (born/baptised 1820). . . . :)
Neil
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That's right, Neil. William, who married Elizabeth Bernard and then Janet Syme? His eldest sister was Margaret (1802-1885), who married David Kirk :)
Ian
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There were three places designated for burials very close to the house of Tobias Bauchop; Greenside Cemetery, Alloa Churchyard and Alloa Cemetery, which is adjacent to the Old Churchyard. All are now closed for burials and have been for some considerable time.
It would appear there are Bauchops buried in Clackmannanshire but very few names are legible on the older headstones. There are over 50 Bauchop registered deaths in this county from 1866 to 2013.
Tullibody Churchyard: (248) (I presume this is the lair) 1827 John Archibald; Margaret Bauchop; Coalkers; (on back) plough.
Greenside Cemetery: (45) John Glen Auctioneer, Alloa. Died 21 Dec., 1877. 78yrs.Wife Margaret Bauchop died 13 Nov., 1879. 73yrs. 3rd Son William Bauchop died 27 Jul. 1906. 68yrs; 5thson. George Glen. Distiller died Yoker Nolm, Yoker. 27 Dec. 1916. 74yrs.Clackmannan Churchyard: (221)
Clackmannan Churchyard: (83) 1827 William Bauchop, Eliz. Harrower. 3 Lairs.
Reiver and landji. I think this is yours.
Clackmannan Churchyard:(221)
1825 Michael Penman, Mary Bauchop. 3 Lairs.
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Maddymoss, thanks for that information particularly about Michael Penman and Mary Bauchop. I must admit I'm not sure of the references/dates. Would 1825 be when the lair or lairs were bought? Was 1821 the number in the churchyard of the lair or lairs bought? Even more basically is a lair a grave? :)
As with Iandj I'm confident that Tobias and Janet Vanan are direct relatives - based on records.
As Monica suggested I've been looking at naming patterns. It has proved interesting but not conclusive by any stretch of the imagination.
Tobias and Janet's children in order (oldest to youngest) were John, Andrew, Margaret and Tobias (only four? :) ). Two of the three possible Bauchop families (see earlier post from me) had a John as father - he who married Anna Mortimer and he who married Helen Henderson. Janet's father was also John and she did not have any brothers called Andrew. Andrew however was the eldest son of the John B who married Helen Henerson. Two in favour of John B and Helen Henderson? So what about Margaret? A daughter of John Vannan (Janet's father) was called Margaret. Finally James. James was the eldest son - again - of John V and Bessie Lin.
On that basis, the favourite for parents of Tobias are John B and Helen Henderson. Case proved ????? ;) Their Tobias was baptised in 1710 making him 36 when he married 15 year old Janet.
oh well . . . .
Regards
Reiver
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Reiver,
I presume 1825 was when the lair/lairs were purchased. Your number 1821 is actually 221 and appears to be the lair number.
This information is contained in a small booklet entitled Clackmannanshire monumental inscriptions.
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Thanks Maddymoss for the information. I have the number as 221 but finger trouble I'm afraid.
Where can I obtain a copy of the booklet, please? The Central Scotland FHS?
Reiver
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Reiver,
I purchased the booklet 'Clackmannanshire Monumental Inscriptions' from 'The Scottish Genealogy Society' website.
Cheers.
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Many thanks for that :)
I know now what I must do.
Regards
Reiver
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Yes, thanks from me too for your help and contributions, maddymoss.
As it happens, I'm in the Edinburgh area for several days from tomorrow so I will be looking in at the SGS centre.
Regards
Iandj
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Hi all
I assume you are aware that the Bauchop house is the oldest extant house in Alloa - it is a lovely old building.
For burial records, lairs purchases etc from 1866 to present, go to www.clacksweb.org.uk/community/burialrecords. This is fairly new online;you can also use wildcards there.
From a straight search on BAUCHOP, there are 11 records in early 20th century.
Perhaps a search on possible collateral lines may help?
Wishing you all success in your endeavours
alvagirl
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Thank you Alvagirl. That's very helpful.
If I get time during the SAFHS Conference in Dunfermline, I am hoping to visit Alloa, Clackmannan and some of the other Fife locations that are part of my heritage.
Iandj
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Landj, I'll be in Dunfermline too, will pm you.
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Hi folks, first post new member from Australia.
Tobias Bauchop is my 6 x GG and I am excited to see some other relatives. I will check my records for any other details.
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A Tobias Bachop died on 26 April 1710. The house which he built for himself bears the date 1695 and the initials of himself and his wife Margaret Lapsley. It stands in Kirkgate, Alloa. I believe he may be the father of your Tobias. Tobias the elder was a famous architect and built his own house in Kirkgate, Alloa. There is a nearby cemetery called Greenside which has been surveyed and recorded by members of the Clackmannan Field Studies Society (try Google). At that time Clackmannan was the county town so events in Alloa which later became the county town may be recorded as Clackmannan. I think there was a question of pronunciation-I would pronounce it as Bocup phonetically. I have some stuff on old Alloa but am having trouble making it small enough to upload.
The Clackmannan Person
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Your information about Tobias Bauchop (or Bachop, etc) is very interesting, Clackmannan Person, not least your pronunciation of the surname, which isn't one I've heard before.
Tobias junior was my 5x great-grandfather, and I knew that his father was Tobias, the architect and the designer /owner of Bauchop House in Alloa. But I didn't know that his wife was Margaret Lapsley or that their initials were engraved in the house. A plan I had to visit Alloa this summer and see for myself didn't come off unfortunately.
You mention that Clackmannan Field Studies Society has recorded inscriptions in Greenside cemetery. Are these pre-1855 inscriptions? I have the Scottish Genealogical Society's book of Clackmannanshire inscriptions, which includes Greenside cemetery, but they seem to be by and large after 1855 when records became mandatory by law. I was wondering if the FSS held copies for sale as they don't appear in the FSS website's list of publications - unless Memento Mori (price £0.50) is what you are meaning.
Regards
Iandj
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This is the front of a leaflet which gives you an idea. My late mother was a member of the Field Studies and when she moved into a home I recovered a lot of local history material. Left Alloa in 1965 but had infrequent visits through work until I retired in 2004. I used to cycle all round the area as a kid. There is quite a bit about Tobias Bauchop through Google.
The Clackmannan Person
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www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.1131313,-3.793083,3a,90y,17.14h,86.12t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sq84zOxTewxHpAkU5nPfGHQ!2e0!6m1!1e1
Tobias Bauchop's house. If you swing round clockwise you see Greenside Church and cemetery. This was close to the then town centre which moved north over the centuries. If you look 90deg left you see St Mungo's Church and if you were to walk in that direction you cross 'The Wagon Road' which was a narrow gauge railway to carry coal from the mines about 4 miles away to the harbour which is about half a mile down Broad Street on the left.
The Clackmannan Person
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It has been some four months since the last post with information about Tobias, the builder in Alloa. I've moved house in the meantime so have had other things on my mind.
The Clackmannan Person noted the death of the builder Tobias in December 1710. Is a date for his marriage to Margaret Lapsley known? Am I right in saying there is no record of any children?
I have mislaid a number of my files.
My thinking is that our (me. landj and juggernaut :) ) Tobias was born to a John Bauchop (see earlier post) - despite our Tobias being born in 1709-10 just before Tobias the builder died.
That is, I'm anticipating another generation before possibly linking to fame. :) :) :)
Reiver
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You're back into the OPR's. There has been a church in Alloa for 400 years so maybe something. Two suggestions 1) contact the Central Scotland Family History Society (http://www.csfhs.org.uk/contact.htm) who may be able to help. 2) Tobias Bauchop was a big wheel back in the day and I imagine his life is documented somewhere its just finding the right place.
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Further to my last post I have found the following which contains at reference that may lead somewhere. This in from a Clackmannan Field Studies Society Newsletter no date but must have been prior to 2000. When my mother died in 2006 I recovered local history stuff from her flat so it is not inconceivable that someone since in the society has done "The life of Tobias Baak."
Star House, 25 Kirkgate, Alloa
The sundial is a remarkable 5 foot deep sandstone panel also described in McGibbon and Ross Vol 5 P 37.
John Dunbar in "The Historic Architecture of Scotland" writes of 25 Kirkgate as a "small but well proportioned but carefully detailed house."
George Scott Moncrieff lauds the finely pointed ashlar front in "Stones of Scotland."
The house was occupied by Bauchop's (or Baak as he was better known) descendants until being bought by a sea captain. Prom 1762 till 1786 the house gave service as a Divinity Hall of the General Associate Synod (seceders). C. 1900 the frontage was altered for the purposes of a shop. The front door used to be in the west facing wall of the North wing of the house. The present frontage is shown in a postcard of some 70-80 years ago of the "Theological Hall" as having a window where the door is now. The old door is blocked up but the posts remain.
Tobias Bauchop.
The life of this worthy citizen of Alloa was well recorded in 1874 by John Crawford in "Memorials of the Parish of Alloa."
Tobias was the son of Thomas Bauchop, both were masons to the Earl of Mar. He also had a brother who was a mason. In 1684 he married Margaret Lindsay, a very strong minded woman. In so doing he forsook his native church for that of "ye barberous, perjured ceremonymongers." When he came to build Star House it was considered that the evil looking face on the sundial was the only authentic petrified portrait of Old Nick in existence.
The Session records show that on March 14 1680 Tobias Baak was one of five masons requested to estimate for repairing the old Parish Church. Jointly with John Buchanan he submitted this bill of quantities.
Good hunting.
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Thanks Clackmannan Person for the additional information from the Field Centre. I've been back over some of my old ground but also established some material that helps me anyway :) .
From the Old Parish Registers a Tobias Bachop married a Margaret Lapslay on the 8th February 1684 in the parish of Alloa. The only birth for a Tobias Bachop that I could find over a long period was one who was baptised in 1674. Surely he couldn't have married aged 10ish (could he?). Two years on from their marriage Tobias and Margaret had a son baptised whom they called John - 1st May 1686 . This time Margaret was Lapslie. Incidentally Lapsley (etc) is at odds with the Margaret Lindsay mentioned in Crawfords 'Memorials of the Parish of Alloa' of 1874 which you referred to.
Birth years for 'my/our' Tobias suggest 1710 to 1714. In 1710 to 1714 Tobias, the mason, would have been married some 26 years when 'my/our' Tobias was baptised.
i considered in an earlier post that the parents of 'my/our' Tobias may have been a John Bauchop and Helen Henderson. I cannot find a marriage but there are six baptisms shown to them in the following years -
1696 Andrew, 1701 John, 1704 John (as 1701), Thomas 1706, Tobias 1710.
Other possible parents were Tobias and Jean Arthur. There is a marriage between a Tobias Baak and Jean Arthur in December 1701. Children?;-
1703 Catharine, 1706 Robert, 1711 Janet, 1712 Tobias
The third suggestion for Tobias's parents were John Bauchop and Anna Mortimer. Again I cannot find a marriage but children;-
1707 Margaret, 1711 Anne, 1713 Isabel, 1714 Tobias
I don't think I'm any closer to the mason of Alloa :) :)
One final thing I found of interest in the light of your comment that Tobias made about forsaking his native church. The last few words of his marriage record reads ' . . . . by . . . order from the Bishop of Edinburgh'.
Reiver
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Hello,
I am surprised to find myself interested in anything Clackmannan connected, or in any of these surnames, but I have just found a missing Argyllshire relative that married a descendant of this family.
My grandmother's cousin, Mary Stuart MCDOUGALL b. 1870 in Invernesshire (during a brief period when her parents, both natives of Mull, lived there) married Alexander Kirk BAXTER. He was the son of Alexander Kirk BAXTER (Senior) and a BEGBIE. The elder Alexander BAXTER was the son of Robert BAXTER and Mary Ann Baxter KIRK. Robert and Mary Ann must have been some sort of cousins???
I further found that Mary Ann Baxter (KIRK) BAXTER (what a name!) was the daughter of David KIRK and Margaret PENMAN, whom I see was perhaps a daughter of Michael PENMAN and Mary BAUCHOP, if I'm following this correctly.
The name Kirkgate is interesting too ... possibly named for all those KIRKs around the area?
Mary
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Hi Mary,
Some of that is right but I think you may have confused two Mary Ann Kirks. Robert Baxter (1802-1887) and my gg-aunt, Mary Ann Kirk (1804-1875) married in 1826 and had seven children, the youngest being Alexander Kirk Baxter (b.1839). Mary Ann Kirk's older brother, David Kirk (1795-1875), married Margaret Penman (1802-1885) in 1822 and they had 10 children, including Mary Ann Baxter Kirk (1842-1911). So you will see that the dates of the two Mary Anns are a generation apart. The younger Mary Ann Kirk was my great-grandmother; she and my great-grandfather moved to Denny in the mid-1860s. Robert Baxter died at Ayr in 1885 so the family was surprisingly mobile.
You are right, however, that Margaret Penman was the daughter of Michael Penman and Mary Bauchop. And you have helped me fill in a few blanks from the line of Alexander Kirk Baxter Snr for which I thank you.
Regards
Ian
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Hi Ian,
Aha, thank you - that makes more sense now!
Alexander Kirk BAXTER (the younger) married my grandmother's cousin, Mary Stuart McDOUGALL in 1902 in Maryhill, Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland. The family went to Dunedin, New Zealand. According to the website of their granddaughter, a well known NZ children's author, Alexander was born in NZ but went to Scotland (the birthplace of his parents), married Mary and brought her to NZ. Not sure how all of that came about but it's interesting.
http://tauranga.kete.net.nz/tauranga_local_history/topics/show/1408-lynley-stuart-weeks-1941
Mary
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Thank you, Mary.
I've been able to follow this through now, add a few dates and check out the link you posted. Fascinating!
It seems that Lynley Dodd (nee Weeks) is my 4th cousin and that she has had a very successful career.
Regards
Ian
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Kirkgate = gate/gait is a street. Churchstreet.
Skoosh.
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Thanks, Skoosh. I was going to say that I suspect Kirkgate is more to do with the kirk near Bauchop House than with the Kirk family. As a streetname it seems quite common in the Clackmannan/Fife area
Ian
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It has just dawned on me that the explanation, which has eluded me for so long, for baptising my g-grandmother Mary Ann Baxter Kirk must lie in this close connection with her aunt, Mary Ann Baxter (nee Kirk). Till now I have never been able to fathom where the 'Baxter' name came from. Perhaps her aunt was the godmother or the midwife?
However, Mary Ann Baxter Kirk and my g-grandfather, Alexander Simpson, seem to have followed the example by naming my grandmother, Janet Miller Simpson. I have never found a Miller in this branch of the family, so I wonder if it could be the name of a friend or midwife or godmother.
Has anyone any other thoughts?
Regards
Ian
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Ian, not a common name, if you Google, Vannan, Bo'ness, there's a connection to Robert Burns.
Skoosh.
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Tobias Balk married Janet Vanan in the parish of Clackmannan on 19th December 1746 (per SP image). Ten months later their son John Bachop was baptised also in Clackmannan. (John Bachop lawful son of Tobias Bachop and Janet Vanan, Clackmannan (per SP Image)).
It is apparent that parish clerks had great difficulty in spelling the surname Bauchope, Bachop or similar. How should it be pronounced? But Balk, Baulk etc ?
Based on her baptism date, Janet appears to be about 15 when she married Tobias. SP provides three Tobias Bauchops who could be Janet's husband. All three baptised between 1710 and 1714 - one in Alloa, the others in Clackmannan. However a marriage between a 37 yr old and a 15 year old?
Not knowing the area could anyone suggest a iikely graveyard, please? Inscriptions recorded?
Any other thoughts please?
Regards
Reiver
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There is bauchops buried in greenside cemetery Alloa clackmannanshire burials is free to view
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Spelling was inconsistent, well into the 19th century in Scotland, people wrote what they thought they heard.
Bauchop
Bau - as in football, or fitba'
ch - loch, not lock
op - I think as in operation rather than as in open, unsure