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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: KentishChris on Monday 06 January 14 04:04 GMT (UK)
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Hello!
So far I've had lots of fun finding out information about my great-great grandmother, Violet Kemp Horn(e). Sometimes its with an e, sometimes it's not. This may have been the time where the family permanently dropped the E, as from my great-grandfather downwards, none of us spell our surname with an e.
Violet Kemp Thomson was born in Gourock, Scotland in 1872. I understand she went to Chile in 1896, and returned married in 1902, however she has travelled back on her own, or at least, without her husband. I have no idea why she was in Chile....
She had my great-grandfather in 1903, in Croydon, England, but this is where the story gets even more confusing!
The next record I have found for my great-grandfather is his marriage in the 1930's in Sussex, England.
However, Violet is found travelling to Sydney in 1922, (on her own again!). Her husband, William Nixon Horn, is nowhere to be found, anywhere....!!! But her last address is listed in Scotland.
So she has travelled to Sydney, but the next record I have found for her is in 1931 in Bannockburn, Victoria. She is on the 1931, 1936, 1937 and 1943 electoral lists, all in Bannockburn.
Violet is a nurse.
And then she dies in Geelong, Victoria, in 1946.
There is the story, but I am wondering whether anyone can help me why she would move to Sydney in 1922, and how she ended up in Bannockburn, supposedly without any family.
I'm extremely confused, and I have quite a few pieces of the puzzle, but something is just not quite right.
Thanks in advance!
Chris
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You may have left out bits of the story :D Where was your grandfather after his birth in Croydon? Oh yes and your Great Grandfather?
Neil
Modified, so sorry I lost a generation there or am I right?
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Do you have a copy of her 1946 Death Cert? It should give you more details (including the relationship of the informant to the deceased, as someone knew her father's names)
Violet Kemp HORNE, aged 74, father : Robt Thomson
#18598
Depth of detailed Info on Vic Death Certs is probably the best in the world :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
And Vic bdm certs are available to immediately download if you you’re your plastic card handy
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=purchaseImage
I must be positively ancient, all my great great grandparents died back in the 1800s except one who died in the late 1700s .... my grandparents were adults before New South Wales became a State.
Cheers JM
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:D Ancient yes......It took me 5 years to find out who my GG Grandfather was, it was so long ago and in another country :D
Neil
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I could not find Violet but this British in South America site could be helpful:
http://www.sabrits.co.uk/
(my grandparents lived in Paraguay from 1893 for a while). Gazania
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Australia Paraguay and the establishment of a 'collective' 1893ish
Dame Mary Gilmore was one who was part of that New Australia Movement.
"She followed William Lane and other socialist idealists to Paraguay in 1896, where they had established a communal settlement called New Australia two years earlier. At Lanes breakaway settlement Cosme she married William Gilmore in 1897. By 1900 the socialist experiment had clearly failed Will left to work as a shearer in Argentina and Mary and her two year old son Billy soon followed, living separately in Buenes Aires for about six months, and then the family move to Patagonia until they saved enough for a return passage, via England, in 1902 to Australia, where they took up farming near Casterton, Victoria."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Gilmore
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/gilmore-dame-mary-jean-6391
I am mentioning this as Dame Mary Gilmore was a single lass, who went to Paraguay, married there, went to England and then returned to Australia.... :) so there's some similarities with Violet's story
Cheers, JM
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I was thinking along the lines of a possible Missionary Nurse?
???
Neil
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I see others have suggested you get the 1946 death cert
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=667160.0
Cheers JM
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She is buried at INVERLEIGH Cemetery Victoria:
HORNE Violet Kemp 18/04/1946 age 74yrs
Father: Robert THOMSON
Mother: Unknown
Husband: William
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0xhq/
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Thanks for all your replies! :)
Luckily I have a day off tomorrow, so my mission will be to order her death certificate! Because I am only in Adelaide, it shouldn't take too long to get to me.
Something along the lines of a missionary nurse is all that I could come up with as well Neil!
She returns in 1902 to England, but George is born in November 1903. I cannot find any of them on the 1911 census, and I know nothing of their lives between 1903 and 1933 when George marries in Sussex, apart from the document saying Violet travelled to Australia in 1922.
In reply to your first post Neil, I cannot find ANYTHING on William Nixon Horn. He is listed as a chemist on George's birth certificate. I have found a William Nissen Horn, around the same area, who is a stationers apprentice a few years earlier, and is also 9 years younger than Violet. It's possible, but I doubt it.
She sailed into Valparaiso, but that doesn't mean she remains there. Although 6 years does suggest that she is there for a particular reason!
Chris
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Thanks for all your replies! :)
Luckily I have a day off tomorrow, so my mission will be to order her death certificate! Because I am only in Adelaide, it shouldn't take too long to get to me.
Chris
Hi Chris,
The state Victoria has online cert. which you can receive straight away.
http://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/home/family+history/
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Hello all,
I received Violet's death certificate this morning. I could have had it immediately, but I thought I'd wait and get it through the post instead, hence why it took a little longer!
Interesting information;
Where and When died: 18th April 1946, Geelong Hospital
Usual Place of Residence: "Braeside" Inverleigh
Occupation: Nurse
Cause of Death: Senility
When the doctor last saw deceased: 17th April 1946
Fathers Name: Robert Thomson
Mother's Name: Not Known
Informant: Les Cole, Undertaker's Assistant, Geelong West
When and Where Buried: 20th April 1946, Inverleigh Cemetery
Where born and how long in state: Scotland. 25 Years in Victoria
If deceased was married:
Where: England
At What Age: Unknown
To Whom: William Horne
Condition at date of death: Widow
Issue: No Issue
I didn't know where to start with this. Sometimes death certificates have answers, this one does not.
The main 2 things that caught my attention was that she was a widow (as I have no information on him at all!) and that she had no issue, when I know full well that she did. I understand that the information probably would have come from someone that knew her, however, surely if the person wasn't sure, it would say "Unknown", rather than "No Issue".
I have researched Inverleigh Cemetery and found her on the burial list, but she was not on the headstone list, either suggesting that she doesn't have a headstone, or that the list may be incomplete (which it does say!)
I have also researched "Braeside", which I presume is a home, but found nothing.
In the meantime of my last post, I have also managed to find Violet on electoral rolls, throughout the 1920's, 30's and into the 40's, as living in Bannockburn, Victoria, which is the suburb next to Inverleigh.
It all fits, but nothing is making sense! :)
Thanks in advance for you help!
Chris
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Violet is found travelling to Sydney in 1922, (on her own again!). Her husband, William Nixon Horn, is nowhere to be found, anywhere....!!! But her last address is listed in Scotland.
Have you searched for her husband's death at Greenock in Scotland? Perhaps they separated ie if they were together in the UK. Are their electoral rolls available in Scotland for the era. My research in Scotland only extends to the 1890's.
You need to look at the image to find an electors details not just read the division and sub division. Many electorates/divisions cover large areas.
Australian Electoral Roll
1931, 1936., 1937, 1943
HORN Violet Kemp Braeside, Inverleigh Nurse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverleigh,_Victoria
On TROVE there are death notices in 1915 for William TRUDGEON and in 1924 for his wife who both died at "Braeside" Inverleigh and there are TRUDGEON's on the electoral roll in 1931 at Inverleigh. The TRUDGEON family were enrolled to vote at Inverleigh from 1903 and were gardeners/orchardists. None of the new enrolments used the address "Braeside" just Inverleigh. The notices state residence. It was fashionable to name one's home no matter how grand or modest.
As Violet died in hospital I suggest the information was given to the undertaker by a staff member. Usual place of residence should be her last place of permanent residence. It is possible she may have been in hospital for sometime or even a nursing home.
You appear to have misinterpreted the information about photos of headstones in Inverleigh Cemetery. If there was a headstone it would be on this website.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ausvsac/Inverleigh.htm
The list below only refers to headstones and is not a complete burial list for the cemetery
or this one
http://www.ianmarr.net.au/INVERLE.HTM
Perhaps there were no funds for a headstone.
Violet did not have a will probated in Victoria.
It is possible Violet enrolled to vote in 1931 as she was approaching the age when she would have been eligible for the aged pension. I note that her occupation on the passenger list was housewife. She was contracted to land in Sydney so if the years in Victoria are correct, she appeared to have moved to that State soon after arrival.
Cheers :)
Cando
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Can you identify the source of the information you are using please?
"I understand she went to Chile in 1896, and returned married in 1902, however she has travelled back on her own, or at least, without her husband"........is this from passenger list?
"His marriage in the 1930's in Sussex, England"....do you have this certificate?
What work did ggrandfather George do....... if followed father William ie how long his father was around in his life.
Who did George marry 1933 please...I am not seeing marriage in Sussex that looks like him.
(FreeBDM).
Did George and family live/die in England or Australia?
Electoral Roll 1881 Gourock, Renfrew
THOMSON
Robert 40yrs builder and joiner b. Gourock
Agnes 33yrs b. Lochgilphead, Argyll
Violet R 9yrs b. Gourock
Rachel C 8yrs b. Gourock
Nelly A 4yrs b. Gourock
Jeannie M 7/12 b. Gourock
1891
Robert 51yrs, Agnes 44yrs, Violet 19yrs, Helen 14yrs, John THOMPSON 7yrs,
George THOMPSON 5yrs, Mary AITCHISON, niece b. Glasgow.
John and George are sons, just different spelling, and all children b. Gourock.
1891...I am not seeing any of these people....did they all move away?
IGI
Violet Kemp THOMMSON b. 20 Feb 1887 Inverkip, Renfrew Robert / Agnes AITCHiSON
Rachel Cameron THOMSON b 25 Feb 1873 Inverkip, Renfrew Robert / Agnes AITCHESON
Alice Louisa Douglas THOMSON b. 18 Aug 1874 Inverkip, Renfrew Robert / Agnes AITCHiSON
several instances of NIXON as given name in Greenock, Renfrew 1870 - 1890
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"I understand she went to Chile in 1896, and returned married in 1902, however she has travelled back on her own, or at least, without her husband"........is this from passenger list?
I found Violet travelling alone on a passenger list arriving Liverpool in 1902. I can type up the details if you think it will help.
Cando
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Possible birth and marriage
Births Dec 1903
HORN George Lamont Croydon 2a/328
Marriages Dec 1933
HORN George L Linfield E Preston 2b/1011
LINFIELD Ellen Horn E Preston 2b/1011
Cando
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And may be his death....ie if the correct George HORN.
HORN George Lamont
Born 3 Nov 1903
Death Mar 1976 72 years Hove 18/1611
A quick search and they don't appear on the 1911 census.
Cando
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Just found three online trees on Ancestry - all sourced and I think the OP may be one of the owners. So he has all this information.
Cando
Edit...and apologies JM I completely missed this link :-[
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=667160.0
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Chris you MAY be able to find something about the TRUDGEON family and even find a descendant who could tell you something about their family in that era.
My first port of call would be here...there is an Inverleigh historian with the Geelong Family History group. Nothing like local knowledge.
http://zades.com.au/gandd/index.php/geelong/gdcalend/details/25-GFHG201110
Many entries on this index for the TRUDGEON family at Inverleigh here - you need to contact the group for further information.
http://zades.com.au/gandd/index.php/databases/gddbs
Only 13 listings in Vic
http://www.whitepages.com.au/?entryType=R
Cando
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Well I've got George's birth certificate.
And his marriage is to Ellen Linfield, in Sussex.
I do not have their marriage certificate, so this might be my next step, to see if I can find any information on that!
George was in the army during WW2. Unfortunately, he died in the 1970's and I was born in 1991, and haven't had any contact with relatives that knew him, so I actually do not know what he did after the war. He died in Sussex, and as far as I'm aware he lived in the area from when he got married until he died.
With Violet going to Chile; there is a document stating she left in 1896 and arrived in Valparaiso, Chile as a Violet Kemp Thomson. There is then a document stating she then left Valparaiso, Chile, in 1902 and returned to England as Violet Kemp Horne. All dates match. Although I shouldn't assume, everything is too much of a coincidence, but at the moment, I haven't followed this section of her life anyway.
I have no documentation of William Horne at all. He is listed on George's birth certificate as father, as a William Nixon Horne, and that he is a chemist. He is listed on Violet's death certificate as husband. But that is everything I have on him. I have found nothing at all.
Concerning the headstone at Inverleigh Cemetery. Her name is found on the list of people who are buried in the cemetery that DON'T have a headstone. I have found this since my last post.
So what you are saying that "Braeside" may be the name of the home?
I will do a bit of research on the Trudgeon family, and see what I can find!
I will also get in contact with the local historian, like you say cando, there is nothing like local knowledge!
Chris
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'... there is a document stating she left in 1896 and arrived in Valparaiso, Chile as a Violet Kemp Thomson. There is then a document stating she then left Valparaiso, Chile, in 1902 and returned to England as Violet Kemp Horne."
What are these documents please. The nature of the documents might provide a clue.........immigration?..........employment?.....customs statement?....statutory declaration?.....what are they?.
Who is the informant on the birth certificate please....if he is born at a residential address can you give that information please.
Do you know if George ever travelled to Australia...or ever left England (apart from war service).
Did he pass on the name Nixon to one of his children...but don't name his children here please. It might indicate what degree of influence or contact father William had in the life of son George.
Cando.......regarding a passenger list, knowing that there is a record suits me...and thanks.
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They are immigration/passenger lists.
The informant is Violet Kemp Horn, mother, 7 Upper Grove, South Norwood, Croydon UD.
That's where he is born on the 3rd November 1903.
I do not of any travel to Australia on this whole branch of the family, and I am not aware of any travels to elsewhere. It doesn't mean he didn't though.
I have never heard the name Nixon. It was a surprise when I saw the name Nixon come through on the birth certificate! No-one in the family has the name, no-one has ever mentioned the name.
When George's birth certificate came through there were a few surprises;
1. Both parents names!
2. That William is listed as a Chemist.
Thank you
Chris
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Have you looked to see if you can find Violet and George in Scotland in 1911?
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Marriage located:
1896 William Horn, chemist, Lautaro Nitrate. Co., to Violet Kemp, eldest daughter of late Robert Thomson, builder, Gourock, at. Tatal, Chile on 17th June 1896.
- in the Greenock Telegraph 20.6.1896
Difficult to link directly as it's a pdf but use the following google search:
site:www.inverclyde.gov.uk "Violet Kemp"
ETA: http://www.rootschat.com/links/0xmg/ and the original record from Chile which I believe shows his parents as George Horn and Mary Nixon. He signs his name without "Nixon", though.
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Jorose, this is fantastic! :)
As you can probably tell, I'm a bit of a beginner with family history, and sometimes I just never know where to look!
Taltal was huge for sodium nitrate then!
Can anyone read what the residence says?
Luckily I did a bit of Spanish in school, so I've managed to work out most of it, but the writing is difficult to put together.
He was 28, she was 29.
I also cannot work out what the profession for Violet says?
Thanks again,
Chris
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For her occupation, I'm guessing "ninguna" for "none".
Perhaps the conditions in Chile did not agree with her. I can see no births or deaths in Taltal for this family - just the marriage. I would look in Scotland for the 1911 census for Violet and her son, and possibly a death for William.
Do you know where "Lamont" comes from? Is that a family name?
There are also some post office directories for Scotland here which would be worth checking:
http://www.nls.uk/family-history/directories/post-office
Interestingly there are also some Journals of the Society of Chemical Industry, of which William was a member:
1892: in Greenock:
https://archive.org/stream/journals11soci#page/n71/mode/2up
1901: last in which I find his name (still in Chile) - although the 1902 doesn't seem to have the usual list of members - 1903 definitely doesn't have him, though.
https://archive.org/stream/journals20soci#page/n139/mode/2up
So somewhere between 1901 and 1903 he was no longer a member - deceased, stopped paying his dues?
Perhaps he returned to Greenock where he had worked some years earlier - is that why Violet is there by 1922?
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This looks promising.
IGI marriage HORN George / NIXON Mary 19 Jan 1860 High Church, Glasgow, Lanark
IGI births to parents George HORN and Mary NIXON
HORN Mary Maitland 27 Feb 1861 High Church, Glasgow, Lanark.
HORN George 15 Nov 1862 Calton, Glasgow, Lanark
HORN Mary 15 Nov 1862 Calton, Glasgow, Lanark
HORN James 03 May 1864 Calton, Gladgow, Lanark
HORN Margaret Dunn 28 May 1866 Calton, Glasgow, Lanark
HORN William 15 Feb 1868 Calton, Glasgow, Lanark
HORN Robert 26 Jan 1870 Calton, Glasgow, Lanark
HORN Mary Nixon 20 Dec 1871 Bridgton, Glasgow, Lanark
HORN Helen 08 Nov 1873 High Church, Glasgow, Lanark
HORN Russell 31 Aug 1881 Denniston, Glasgow, Lanark
NIXON, Mary born 8 May 1838 Glasgow, Lanark parents James NIXON / Marion RUSSELL
Census
1871 at 6 Rochester St Glasgow
HORN, George 42 grocer, Mary 32
Eliza 4, George 8, James 6, Margaret 4, William 3, Robert 1
1881 at Bellgrove St
HORN, George 53, Mary 43,
Elizabeth M 20, George 19 clerk (lawyers), James 17, Margaret D 15, Robert 11, Mary N 9, Helen 8, Isabella 6......and....Marion NIXON 47yrs sister-in-law.
1891 at 5 Bellgrove St
HORN George 64, Mary 53,
James 26, Mary D 24, William 23 analytical chemist, Helen 17, Isabella 15, Russell 9.
1901 at 591 Great Eastern Rd
HORN George 72, Mary 63
Elizabeth SMITH 39 dau, Margaret 35, Robert 31, Mary 30, Ellen 28, Isabella 26, Russell 20, William SMITH grandson.
IGI birth
NIXON Marion 5 Jun 1834 Glasgow, Lanark parents James NIXON / Marion RUSSELL
marriage
James HORN m. Margaret DUN 20 Aug 1824 Barony, Lanark
Possible?
WILL Scotland
HORN Mary 34 Garturk St Glasgow d. 2 Aug 1920
HORN George 34 Garturk St Glasgow d. 3 Jun 1902
might have mention of son?
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Thanks Jorose and wivenhoe!
I'd made a mistake, veinticinco is 25, not sure why I said Violet was 29. So now the dates fit together! :)
William is listed as the father of George Lamont Horn, and he is born 3rd November 1903, but Violet left Chile in 1902, meaning he must have been conceived in England. Although I won't assume!
I have no idea where Lamont comes from! The name has been passed down from George Lamont Horn, but there was no mention of why or where it came from. As far as I'm aware, it's a French name..
At the moment, I'm sorting out some bank issues, so I'm going to have to wait for that to be sorted before I can start buying credits on ScotlandsPeople.
But I think I will try and have a look for any immigration records for William, and to follow on wivenhoe's research of where the Horn family ended up!
Thanks again! This story is getting more and more interesting!
Chris
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Wivenhoe,
I've just been reading and clarifying your information. It all fits, and I've been going over lots of hints on Ancestry.
I am guessing that Mary Maitland may have died as a baby, hence the 2nd Mary 18 months later.
Mary and George are twins.
There has always been a little story in the family about twins. And apparently it "skips generations".
They all seem to be doing pretty well for themselves! I was expecting a family this large in the centre of Glasgow in the 1800's to be living in poverty, but they all have very good careers! (Doesn't mean they weren't living in poverty though!)
I cannot explain how exciting it is to finally have names!
Since I took over from my late uncle 3 years ago, I have always struggled with this branch, and it's been so frustrating because it is the branch of my surname!
If you can help me find anymore, I would really appreciate it!
I'm going to spend all day looking :)
Thanks
Chris
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This website will be very useful to your research. It is a pay service and very good value. You could use the 1911 census Scotland to account for Violet Kemp Horn/e, William and son George. Similarly, the land valuation records might find William or Violet or members of the families identified here so far.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
The marriage certificate find by Jorose is very helpful...is there a witness George Thomson, who you might suspect to be a relative of Violet?
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Hello again!
So I've spent the evening translating the document myself.
23rd?? June 1896 in Taltal, Chile
Husband: William Nixon Horn, Scottish, 28 years old, Chemist, Single
Wife: Violet Kemp Thomson, Scottish, 25 years old, no profession, single
Parents of Husband: George Horn and Mary Horn nee Nixon
Parents of Wife: Robert Thomson and Agnes Thomson nee Aitchison
I couldn't translate either residency of the parents...
I could only manage 'Calle' which means street, which is where they got married, presumably the address of the only church in Taltal...
The witness is not called George Thomson. He is George T. Robertson, as he signs his name in the next section.
Taltal looks a funny little place! :)
Wivenhoe, I'm just sorting some bank issues out at the moment, so hopefully will be able to start buying credits on that soon! Will let you know of any updates!
Thanks again,
Chris
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There seem to be two witnesses - William Mills Sparkie(?) and George Thompson Robertson.
George Robertson had a child in Taltal in 1897:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KRS9-ZYF
(seems like he is an engineer, perhaps worked with William Horn).
I am at this point very sure that there were no children to the Horn family b. Taltal - I checked the image indexes and it also seems the births have been indexed - hence finding the above. This makes it very interesting that Violet apparently was childless until her return in the UK, upon which she seems to have very quickly gotten pregnant with George (perhaps named after grandfather George Horn?).
There ought to be some record of William coming back to the UK around the same time, if George was indeed his son. As he appears in the " Journals of the Society of Chemical Industry" up to 1901 as in Taltal, then disappears, it seems likely that he either left that position or passed away around this time, although unless he changed occupation entirely it seems odd that he doesn't then seem to appear somewhere in the UK as a chemist.