RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: ankerdine on Wednesday 08 January 14 13:01 GMT (UK)
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I fear I have been taken in by a scam by Forces War Records. ::) :-[ :-[ :-[
My OH always checks the bank account but today I had reason to access it. I noticed several payments of £8.95 to Forces War Records going out of our account monthly. Last Spring I took up an offer by Forces War Records of £5 to access their records for one month. This I did, paying by Visa, but I couldn't find any information on the two WW1 soldiers I was searching for.
I had assumed that this was just one special offer which promoted their site.
How foolish I have been. Has anyone else been taken in like this?
This debit is not listed on my bank's list of standing orders and direct debits so apparently I couldn't cancel it on-line.
I would have preferred to donate the £100 or so to a Charity. Oh dear!
I will now attempt to cancel this payment to a very suspect website. :P
Judy
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Not nice, Judy, but I don't think it's a scam.
I see in the (very) small print it says
To ensure you receive uninterrupted access to Forces War Records, your subscription will be automatically renewed for successive periods of four weeks for your convenience. You can cancel this service by changing your profile by setting the autorenew setting to no.
http://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/subscription-rates/
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I agree with Gadget - this site is NOT a scam. Like most of the sites which offer a "try us and see" period at a reduced rate IF YOU DO NOT CANCEL then you will be debited each month/year etc. The choice is your's.
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Thanks Gadget and Bumblebee for your comments.
I just wish I could see that special offer again. It was being talked about on here, I think or, maybe, advertised/promoted here. I truly believed it was for one month only and have never received communications from them since or accessed their site since. It was of no use to me at all.
Judy
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Did you mean this one?
Did you mean something similar to this offered over the Christmas period 2013?
Don't miss out on your cut price membership!
Today is your last day to take advantage of our Christmas Special Offer; Full Access membership for 44% off our usual price. When you take up this offer, your first month will cost just £5, and give you full access to all of our records, as well as all the other benefits of being a fully subscribed member.
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No sadly, Bumblebee, it wasn't that offer. It must have been around March/April 2013 when the £5 one month offer was promoted. I notice I mentioned it on a thread on here at that time too.
Googling "Forces War Records" shows that many people have been taken in by it. Apparently it was mentioned on Watchdog though I never saw that particular programme otherwise I would have checked my account immediately.
Have now unclicked that "automatic renewal" box and am off to the bank in person to ensure that no further deductions are made.
I admit I have been completely hoodwinked and just hope this thread will enlighten other potential subscribers.
Thanks for your input.
Judy
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The more I Google this website the more people I find have been duped.
The Bank were sympathetic but, as the initial payment was by Visa and not a Direct Debit or Standing Order, they cannot currently help me. There are Trading Standards which I could approach and legal action in the small claims court.
Would this type of selling be covered by the Distance Selling Regulations?
I am in the Doghouse. ;)
There is always "Watchdog" or "Ripoff Britain".
Judy
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Forces War Records replied requesting full details of all payments, together with dates, which I then supplied from my Bank Statements.
They then said that I should have unclicked the automatic renewal of membership box which I had never seen until today. As a goodwill gesture they have offered me a refund of my last payment of £8.95 but I have not accepted this. I had requested a refund of my original £5 last April 2013 when their website failed to find any new information on my two WW1 soldiers but this was never forthcoming. I never accessed the site again from that time, believing that the offer was just for one month.
This surely is bad practice and I wouldn't recommend this website to anyone in the future, especially as one complaint has already been upheld against them by the Advertising Standards Authority, details of which have been mentioned elsewhere on this site.
Judy
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This is why I will never use my regular Visa card for online purchases. I prefer to purchase a Visa Card with a limited amount from the Post Office. Some of these have a small charge, but it is well worth it judging by what happens on the Net. The last one I got was for a value of $100 without any charge. However problem with this is that the provider doesn't tell you what the exchange amount was, and to find out what is left on the card there is a $2.00 charge.
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I agree with Gadget - this site is NOT a scam.
That depends on your definition of a scam. Clearly it is a genuine web site offering a genuine service, but if they rely for much of their income, on people taken in by their advertising and not reading the small print, that could be a valid definition of a scam. Even if it's not covered by the Distance Selling regulation it may be sailing close to the wind in terms of the Unfair Contract Terms legislation, so you could take advice around that question.
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Many companies now use Continuous Payment Authorities whereby subscriptions are renewed automatically unless the customer specifically cancels the subscription.
The Office of Fair Trading offers useful guideance -
http://www.oft.gov.uk/business-advice/treating-customers-fairly/cpa-principles/
Steve
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I have joined this site for one month and ticked the box to say I did not want payment to be automatically go out next month - I will make a double check on this . I was disappointed with the information on the site as it was not particularly useful really.
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I have joined this site for one month and ticked the box to say I did not want payment to be automatically go out next month - I will make a double check on this . I was disappointed with the information on the site as it was not particularly useful really.
GillyJ
I am glad you were not fooled by their website and I totally agree that the records I found were of no use either.
Steve, the link you posted was extremely interesting and pertinent to my case. Thank you very much.
Judy
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Whilst researching a war memorial before Armistice Day 2012 I paid for one month's subscription to this site. Not only did I not realise that I had to opt out of further payments (fortunately a friend warned me in time) but I was extremely annoyed and disappointed to discover that so far as World War 2 was cincerned it contained almost nothing which couldn't be freely obtained from CWGC. Since then I have been bombarded with regular e-mails suggesting that I rejoin because new records have become available for any number of the names I had been researching. Whilst it may not be a scam it is certainlt a rip-off and my advice would be to keep your money in your pocket.
Keith
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I had a similar experience,
Read the small print.
They will renew automatically unless you untick the automatic renewal box.
They must retain your Visa details which is a worry.
I didn't find what I was looking for.
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Thank you all, I have just checked my profile to find I am not a paid member so my access is limited
Spices
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Thanks for the heads up Judy, looks like I got caught too....have changed my profile! :-[
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I was very disappointed with the site. I too will now check my bank statements
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I am not surprised to learn others have been taken in too. ???
I've just double-checked my Genes Reunited details but I had already unclicked automatic renewal. I do allow it to be renewed every six months JUST as a standard member. Be aware though that if you buy additional credits THERE IS ALSO A BOX TO BE UNCLICKED FOR AUTOMATIC TOP-UPS WHEN YOU HAVE USED THOSE CREDITS TOO!
I notice from my bank statement that the first payment made by me (the £5 special offer payment) was to "Forces Reunited", and all subsequent payments of £8.95 were to Forces War Records. Are they different companies? Are they actually connected to Genes Reunited? Does anyone know the answer to this question?
Judy
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Hello again, Judy
It says that they are 'sister sites'
Forces War Records is the sister site of Forces Reunited, the leading British military community on the web with more than one million members and reuniting veterans since 2001, part of Clever Digit Media Ltd.
The site was created approximately five years ago upon the request of some Forces Reunited members who were looking for information on their ancestors but had come up against dead ends with the usual genealogy sites. Since inception we have gone on to add over five million name records and are currently adding over 200,000 records a month.
http://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/aboutus
Gadget
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Hi
GenesReunited has no connection with Forces Reunited or Forces war Records. GenesReunited is part of the Brightsolid stable. Findmypast is also part of the Brightsolid stable.
Andy
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Thanks Gadget and Andy.
I am still considering my position. :-\
Judy
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I have just discovered that they are taking monthly payments from me. I thought I had ticked the correct boxes. I am now going to have to find out how to get out of this.
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I also joined for a month only. Fortunately no more payments have been taken from my card. I looked for a number of my ancestors on the site but didn't find anyone at all so I was very disappointed. I have found more information on the free websites.
Chris
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Sorry for you too James. At least I am not the only one! >:(
Chrissie, keep an eye on your bank account for a while as the payments deducted were not on the same day each month.
This website should be monitored carefully.
Judy
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We have decided to seek professional advice concerning this company re their Distance Selling practices.
Juy
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Hi ankerdine
I noticed you post with interest as I registered with this company recently but I didn't sign up as I decided they couldn't provide anything I couldn't already find on free websites. I have been wondering since then if they are genuine.
Thanks for flagging this up
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I have contacted the site concerned and they have assured me that they do not actually retain credit card details on their records and that it is the bank concerned which links with the subscription chosen, but I did find that their certificate is not up to date, unless as has been suggested by another reply, that they are linked through a sister site. then information on the site seems very limited and as has been mentioned before most of this information can be found elsewhere at no cost.
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The magazine "Discover Your History" is full of ads for Forces War Records and a big article on Letters from the Front in the October edition.
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Could have fooled me.How did they renew by default without retaining my credit card details ?
I was just having a sneaky look at a teaser they sent.Don't blame the bank.
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Point taken - guess we just have to be very vigilant when visiting any sites on the internet!
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Especially during this centenary year. :(
Judy
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Thank you for bringing this to my attention, I too took out the "special offer" which fortunately in my case does not run out until early February. Because of this post I have just been in and amended my settings to remove auto renew.
Many thanks Ankerdine
Chris :-\
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Thank goodness you read this thread, Chris.
I'm having a great deal of trouble trying to get a full refund from Forces War Records. They have reluctantly refunded a few of my monthly payments but I think they took advantage of a genuine mistake by a 68 year old pensioner. :(
As a gesture of goodwill they are allowing me free access to the site until 5 February. Huh. ::) FREE??
Judy
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Hi
You are right, other sites do advise you that you have so many days left to allow you to cancel, not that site though. How many more people have been caught by the same dodge.
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A colleague has just informed me that they received an e-mail yesterday offering a £5 special offer from this website. Needless to say, the offer was not taken up. ;)
Judy
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I discovered today that 4 monthly payments had been taken from my bank when all I thought I was paying was £5 from this offer below. No mention of monthly payments whatsoever and have never had any correspondence from them about taking payments.
Last chance today to get your discounted rate for access to Forces War Records.
Visit below to get your Full Membership for just £5.
Very interesting to read this thread. Thanks to everyone that shared information for the benefit of others :)
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Whilst researching a war memorial before Armistice Day 2012 I paid for one month's subscription to this site. Not only did I not realise that I had to opt out of further payments (fortunately a friend warned me in time) but I was extremely annoyed and disappointed to discover that so far as World War 2 was cincerned it contained almost nothing which couldn't be freely obtained from CWGC. Since then I have been bombarded with regular e-mails suggesting that I rejoin because new records have become available for any number of the names I had been researching. Whilst it may not be a scam it is certainlt a rip-off and my advice would be to keep your money in your pocket.
I subbed to the site, but not only did I not find anything new, what they did have was inaccurate. The site claimed a cousin had served and had military medals. She was a civilian killed in a bombing raid and didn't have any medals. She wasn't the only one either.
They use a template common to all entries with pre entered items but don't check or edit them. It looks very much as though they are using data from other sites such as CWGC that's free of charge , cobbling it together on their site and charging for it. I had to give them a rocket up the backside to get them to stop sending me newsletters even after I'd (theoretically) stopped them. They're still listed by me as spammers and blacklisted.
If it isn't a scam, it's certainly a con. It's a pity nothing can be done to take the site down for good.
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I don't understand, quite, why you're all moaning :-\
Rule No: 1 - Read the small print first :D and
Rule No: 2 - you can search for free to see if there is anything you might be interested in, BEFORE you sign away your life. You only have to sign up if there's a record you want to look at further.
Rule No: 3 - if you have given your credit/debit card number, then take note of the timescale to cancel.
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The address of Forces War Records is P.O.Box 3645. Melksham, SN12 9AJ. Uh Oh.
Would some RootsChatter with an extensive knowledge of SN12 9AJ. perhaps born and bred in SN12 9AJ with a pedigree stretching way back in SN12 9AJ give us some idea of what is going on.
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I don't understand, quite, why you're all moaning :-\
Rule No: 1 - Read the small print first :D and
I have to agree. I dont think people are reading small print even after all the hype and different stories and warnings you hear about, people seem to still not read small print
I can understand why members of that particular site are annoyed with a few situations that have occured and personally i would not pay to join it but isnt it common sense to read rules and regulations before signing up for something. I think the people have to shoulder some of the responsibility if they havent read the fine print.
Whether you agree or disagree with the rules of that site, the thing is that they have terms and conditions outlined.
http://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/terms
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I agree. Mea Culpa.
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I also agree. Mea Culpa. But when a company is giving as an address only a P.O.Box Number some extra Mea Culpa is required.
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the material contained on the site in question is replicated from the same databases already available from other sites..... as for the most part I have found all material on the site in question can be found elsewhere mostly for free.......... a year or so ago along with some fellow rootchatters we did a comparison list of data of servicemen in my family, at the same time another rc chatterer was doing his list ... we found most entries on the site in question were found on anc, cwgc and some material was found on a historical military site......
I will also state we had the advantage of a free time period and used it quickly and effectively so as to not incurr use of credit cards etc........ so I guess we were lucky... it is unfortunate to hear that folk are having difficulty....
fastfusion
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More reason for people to read the small print. Im not saying the site is ideal, as i said earlier i personally wouldnt join it but they do have their butts covered in most aspects.
From what i can gather the most 2 things complained about are the direct debits and also the information that they have found or havent found.
In their terms and conditions it states
We do not offer any guarantee that searchers will find specific information any more than any other similar site would do
And also
Renewals of ‘Full Membership’ will be taken automatically if you paid by credit/debit card (unless you update your account to signify you do not wish this to happen), unless your current card fails in which case we will send you an email informing you of such.
There is an option to not have payment taken automatically from your profile after paying for your first term of ‘Full Membership’.
Since they have it all outlined whose fault is it if people dont read the Terms and conditions?
Read everything and you wont get caught out or ripped off.
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When using Continuous Payment Authorities, the Office of Fair Trading states that before the contract, the business should prominently disclose this to potential customers, as soon as possible.
The questions surely are .... "Is it prominently disclosed".
I would suggest that if it is displayed in the "small print" of the terms and conditions, then it dosn't appear to meet the requirement.
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...."as soon as possible"
If they are leaving you to find the terms and conditions and read them, then it is not being displayed as soon as possible. Surely it should be on the front page or at least the page where you give your card details.
I must admit that I havn't looked at the site and wouldn't want to comment on a particular organisation, but surely it is a case of whether they comply or do not. I would suggest the OFT could give anyone with a complaint clear advice as to whether it meets their requirements or not.
Steve
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I work for Forces War Records and have just read this thread, and am here to answer any questions you might have.
I first have to say though, I am astonished at the jumping on the bandwagon nature of some posts when members post as if an authority on the subject and then state complete untruths.
First off - It states on the payment page itself that the payment is 'per month' , it also states that it will be renewed but you can turn this off in your profile, exactly the same as all other leading genealogy sites work.
Then on to the matter of what records we have - If you look at our collections list, you will see we have more than 20 completely exclusive collections.
Yes, we do have the same data as some of the other sites as well as CWGC, once again, so do ALL other sites.
The data we have which is the same as the CWGC's however also has data from the IWGC memorial rolls, we're the only site that has this.
We also merge all the data we have on an individual (where possible) into one record to make it easier to find and read the info.
No, we don't have original images, unfortunately Ancestry and the ilk beat us to that one by tying up exclusive contracts with TNA stopping anyone else from being able to do that as much as we want to.
Refunds - If you contact our support department and ask for a refund we always refund the payments. It is not in our interest to have customers who are disgruntled as they only wanted to pay once. The renewal system is purely for convenience and the vast majority of our customers appreciate this. Considering we have tens of thousands of paying customers and on looking at this site there's about 10 or so customers I can count who are complaining about this, you'll take my point. Please do contact us, you'll find we are a friendly bunch!
However, we are far more than a records site, like most other sites who try to do it all. We have on-site professional military genealogy experts who can help you far more than just providing a record. Please contact our live support or email support and ask any military questions you might have.
We also have a photo upload area where we can give you info on photos of your ancestors.
We have a UK based 50 strong transcription team to not only employ UK people, but also to try and keep our data as accurate as possible. Our data goes through no less than 4 hoops to try and make the data as accurate as possible, and less than 1% of our data is inaccurate. Usually it will because the original source was inaccurate. We all now how inaccurate other sites are as their transcription teams are based abroad, we have no want to be like them and pay about 3 times as much as we could for our transcriptions because of this.
Regards our address, because of the vast amount of mail we received a PO Box is easier for us, we have nothing to hide. We will be eventing again this year at WDYTYA Live, so please do come and see us at our stand!
If you have any further direct questions I'll be happy to answer them, but I do ask that you return me the courtesy of not making statements as fact that are poorly researched.
Thank you.
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Thank you for taking the time to explain DH999 :)
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I have read DH999's comments with interest.
At last I have been refunded the ten monthly payments of £8.95 going back to April 2013 but it was by no means an easy task.
I should like to thank the following organisations who have helped me along the way.
My Bank who were so encouraging right from day one.
The Citizens Advice Bureau, whose Advice Guide on the Internet was of great help and is well worth reading.
The Advertising Standards Authority
and of course, as usual, all Rootschatters who have given me advice and support throughout this worrying period.
Remember you are never too old to learn. ;)
Judy
I did have my knuckles rapped by a bank employee though. ::) ::)
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Other websites are inaccurate because they are based abroad? maybe you can contact Salt Lake City and tell them that, your post is a disgrace.
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Other websites are inaccurate because they are based abroad? maybe you can contact Salt Lake City and tell them that, your post is a disgrace.
DH999, I believe, was implying that SOME other sites have inaccurate transcriptions because they are based abroad, not ALL. And his/her use of the word 'abroad', I believe was tactfully describing non native English speaking countries.
I believe, too, that it is also accepted that familysearch.org do have some accuracy issues with the early LDS NON-transcribed material albeit with disclaimers on the website.
I am sure everyone agrees that familysearch.org, used with care, is a wonderful & generous resource.
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it's so easy to interpret posts
To clarify: what I meant was based in the country whose records you are transcribing is obviously of huge benefit.
I don't think it's hidden knowledge that there are mistakes on other sites where the transcriber has put for example Smith in the county field and Wiltshire in the surname as they have no UK knowledge other than a few weeks training.
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I don't understand, quite, why you're all moaning :-\
Rule No: 2 - you can search for free to see if there is anything you might be interested in, BEFORE you sign away your life. You only have to sign up if there's a record you want to look at further.
I wasn't moaning and I didn't get caught for payments I didn't want to make but I was not happy with the results.
I did a search, found some entries relating to an ONS I'm involved with as well as some others which didn't give enough detail for me to be sure about. I bought a one month only subscription and was disappointed with the results because some were inaccurate, none told me anything I didn't already know and none helped me positively identify those I was unsure of or looking for.
To me the site implied they had more information than they actually did and I won't use them again.
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I first have to say though, I am astonished at the jumping on the bandwagon nature of some posts when members post as if an authority on the subject and then state complete untruths.
Then on to the matter of what records we have - If you look at our collections list, you will see we have more than 20 completely exclusive collections.
Hi DH999,
Thank you for a thorough explanation, which I am sure is very useful to members.
I do have a few questions though.
I think you are being a little unfair saying that people are jumping on the bandwagon. The posts I have read are simply people who had encountered problems. Not sure what you meant by this?
I would be very interested to know what exclusive collections you hold. Would be very useful when considering whether to visit the site.
The OFT state that Continuous Payment Authorities should be displayed prominently. I have just had a look at the site and can find no mention of them. I did manage to find recurring subscriptions in the small print of the terms and conditions. Surely this should read Continuous Payment Authority not recurring subscriptions,and should be displayed prominently, and not hidden in the terms and conditions. Just a thought and some feedback.
Steve
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I'm afraid this is yet another example where Marketing has taken hold, and ridden roughshod over the needs of the general public.! ::)
It's no good saying "the information was there all along" - what matters is peoples perceptions.
And the message they pass onto others (just like this thread).
A bit of common sense at the web design stage, putting essential information where most people can see and read it, would have saved an awful lot of bad publicity.
Just reading this thread (and other threads) just shows what Joe Public really thinks of Forces War Records.
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I work for Forces War Records and have just read this thread, and am here to answer any questions you might have.
I first have to say though, I am astonished at the jumping on the bandwagon nature of some posts when members post as if an authority on the subject and then state complete untruths.
8><
Yes, we do have the same data as some of the other sites as well as CWGC, once again, so do ALL other sites.
8><
We also merge all the data we have on an individual (where possible) into one record to make it easier to find and read the info.
8><
We have a UK based 50 strong transcription team to not only employ UK people, but also to try and keep our data as accurate as possible. Our data goes through no less than 4 hoops to try and make the data as accurate as possible, and less than 1% of our data is inaccurate. Usually it will because the original source was inaccurate. We all now how inaccurate other sites are as their transcription teams are based abroad, we have no want to be like them and pay about 3 times as much as we could for our transcriptions because of this.
8><
If you have any further direct questions I'll be happy to answer them, but I do ask that you return me the courtesy of not making statements as fact that are poorly researched.
Thank you.
Thank you for your explanation but I'm sorry that you appear to be saying anyone who has responded to say they've had a similar experience is "jumping on the bandwagon". People are the experts on their own experiences and tell the truth as they see it. Any work of any sort, be it a painting, a book/article or a website, will get positive and negative revues depending on the viewer/reader/user, etc. There's no point going off on one. There's nothing to be gained from that but plenty from to be gained in looking at why the person was unhappy and in asking them what and/or how you could do better.
Having multiple sites with the same data can be helpful where one site has missing or conflicting information, the same entry can be checked against another, especially where there are images available.
Having all the data you hold amalgamated into is useful as it saves researchers going round and round in circles hunting for information.
I seem to have found the 1% that is inaccurate. However, I stand by what I said. My cousin did NOT receive any military medals. She was a housewife who was killed in her home in a bombing raid. If she had done anything heroic enough to receive a medal, it would have been a civilian one. Virtually every entry I looked at had exactly the same medals awarded, even when I knew it wasn't so because I have the medal cards. That says a template was being used which had pre-entered data.
Now if you regard that as a "complete untruth" and making a "statement[...] of fact that [is] poorly researched", then I'm sorry. It was my experience. The inaccuracies I found make it difficult for me to trust any data on the site. I don't agree with the view the site is a scam, but to me, it is a con because the inference is there is more data available than is actually the case.
I found inaccuracies on FreeREG recently as a result of the transcriber breaking a golden rule of transcribing. I don't know if I can trust other transcribers work on the site now even though I actually transcribe for them myself! FamilySearch seem to have got their act together and have separated the Patron Submissions from Extractions. It's more reliable now but I found my 4xgt grandmother with two baptismal dates as had her baby sister. Someone found the actual images of the register on Ancestry and the dates for both ladies have been entered correctly in my software program.
The views of the author do not nor are intended to reflect the views of other authors or site.
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It's easy to interpret posts?????????
the reason why mistakes are made is the vast quantities of transcribing that happens and most people can actually see through the mistakes.
when i use my subscription to mistake making people from abroad who place county,smith name,wiltshire one thing is for certain at least they don't state that medals were given to those who were not actually entitled to them.
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I don't understand, quite, why you're all moaning :-\
Rule No: 2 - you can search for free to see if there is anything you might be interested in, BEFORE you sign away your life. You only have to sign up if there's a record you want to look at further.
I wasn't moaning and I didn't get caught for payments I didn't want to make but I was not happy with the results.
I did a search, found some entries relating to an ONS I'm involved with as well as some others which didn't give enough detail for me to be sure about. I bought a one month only subscription and was disappointed with the results because some were inaccurate, none told me anything I didn't already know and none helped me positively identify those I was unsure of or looking for.
To me the site implied they had more information than they actually did and I won't use them again.
As with any genealogy site we wont necessarily have ALL the records possible, nor indeed necessarily ALL the info available on any one record. We of course aim for this, but the reality is a long way from the aim on all sites.
There are in fact at least one well known site that actually does claim 'complete' records. Oddly in a collection where they can't possibly be complete. However one could take two different views of this as with most things it can be subjective, i.e. they have all the records they believe are possible to get, or they have all records that ever existed.
Regarding what you believe we imply, that is of course very subjective. We don't believe we imply anything that we don't have, you believe we do. Implication by it's very nature is a personal view point.
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I first have to say though, I am astonished at the jumping on the bandwagon nature of some posts when members post as if an authority on the subject and then state complete untruths.
Then on to the matter of what records we have - If you look at our collections list, you will see we have more than 20 completely exclusive collections.
Hi DH999,
Thank you for a thorough explanation, which I am sure is very useful to members.
I do have a few questions though.
I think you are being a little unfair saying that people are jumping on the bandwagon. The posts I have read are simply people who had encountered problems. Not sure what you meant by this?
I would be very interested to know what exclusive collections you hold. Would be very useful when considering whether to visit the site.
The OFT state that Continuous Payment Authorities should be displayed prominently. I have just had a look at the site and can find no mention of them. I did manage to find recurring subscriptions in the small print of the terms and conditions. Surely this should read Continuous Payment Authority not recurring subscriptions,and should be displayed prominently, and not hidden in the terms and conditions. Just a thought and some feedback.
Steve
I said jumping on the bandwagon as I felt those members would not have started their own thread to make their post, but instead when someone else started a thread they added a 'me too' post. That is of course my opinion.
Our exclusive collections are all shown on our collections page on the site here: http://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/collections/list/
Repeat subscriptions are on the payment page itself where credit card details are entered. We call it this so it is more obvious to the customer who may not know what a 'continuous authority' is.
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I work for Forces War Records and have just read this thread, and am here to answer any questions you might have.
I first have to say though, I am astonished at the jumping on the bandwagon nature of some posts when members post as if an authority on the subject and then state complete untruths.
8><
Yes, we do have the same data as some of the other sites as well as CWGC, once again, so do ALL other sites.
8><
We also merge all the data we have on an individual (where possible) into one record to make it easier to find and read the info.
8><
We have a UK based 50 strong transcription team to not only employ UK people, but also to try and keep our data as accurate as possible. Our data goes through no less than 4 hoops to try and make the data as accurate as possible, and less than 1% of our data is inaccurate. Usually it will because the original source was inaccurate. We all now how inaccurate other sites are as their transcription teams are based abroad, we have no want to be like them and pay about 3 times as much as we could for our transcriptions because of this.
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If you have any further direct questions I'll be happy to answer them, but I do ask that you return me the courtesy of not making statements as fact that are poorly researched.
Thank you.
Thank you for your explanation but I'm sorry that you appear to be saying anyone who has responded to say they've had a similar experience is "jumping on the bandwagon". People are the experts on their own experiences and tell the truth as they see it. Any work of any sort, be it a painting, a book/article or a website, will get positive and negative revues depending on the viewer/reader/user, etc. There's no point going off on one. There's nothing to be gained from that but plenty from to be gained in looking at why the person was unhappy and in asking them what and/or how you could do better.
Having multiple sites with the same data can be helpful where one site has missing or conflicting information, the same entry can be checked against another, especially where there are images available.
Having all the data you hold amalgamated into is useful as it saves researchers going round and round in circles hunting for information.
I seem to have found the 1% that is inaccurate. However, I stand by what I said. My cousin did NOT receive any military medals. She was a housewife who was killed in her home in a bombing raid. If she had done anything heroic enough to receive a medal, it would have been a civilian one. Virtually every entry I looked at had exactly the same medals awarded, even when I knew it wasn't so because I have the medal cards. That says a template was being used which had pre-entered data.
Now if you regard that as a "complete untruth" and making a "statement[...] of fact that [is] poorly researched", then I'm sorry. It was my experience. The inaccuracies I found make it difficult for me to trust any data on the site. I don't agree with the view the site is a scam, but to me, it is a con because the inference is there is more data available than is actually the case.
I found inaccuracies on FreeREG recently as a result of the transcriber breaking a golden rule of transcribing. I don't know if I can trust other transcribers work on the site now even though I actually transcribe for them myself! FamilySearch seem to have got their act together and have separated the Patron Submissions from Extractions. It's more reliable now but I found my 4xgt grandmother with two baptismal dates as had her baby sister. Someone found the actual images of the register on Ancestry and the dates for both ladies have been entered correctly in my software program.
The views of the author do not nor are intended to reflect the views of other authors or site.
Hi Connie,
I absolutely respect your points.
We of course do not want inaccuracies and a medal on our site that doesn't exist would to me sound like the record we gleaned this from to be incorrect, but of course I could be incorrect, to err is human.
I also of course understand, if you want one record, and you find that record is inaccurate it taints your whole experience. I do however honestly believe we have the most accurate records possible as we try to ensure there are extremely few human errors, and our only errors coming from the document transcribed.
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It's easy to interpret posts?????????
the reason why mistakes are made is the vast quantities of transcribing that happens and most people can actually see through the mistakes.
when i use my subscription to mistake making people from abroad who place county,smith name,wiltshire one thing is for certain at least they don't state that medals were given to those who were not actually entitled to them.
Yes, very easy to interpret posts. As we all view them from our own opinion, not necessarily that of the author. I have explained my comments which I believe were misconstrued. Have you never had a post interpreted by someone incorrectly?
I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree about mistakes though.
In my professional experience, over 80% of people doing genealogy are beginners, they have no idea what is a mistake and what isn't unless it is blatant. Worse than that, in many cases are record may not be found at all if incorrectly transcribed.
I have explained the medal situation previously, but there are many, many other mistakes someone without local knowledge, let alone local language makes.
Surely having 50 UK transcribers employed is a case to applaud, not berate!
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give yourself a medal then! professional- ;D
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I've put myself forward to answer anyone's serious queries.
If anyone else has anything they'd like to ask I'm happy to respond.
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Hi DH999,
Just one more constructive comment. As quite a number of people seem to be affected by the continuous payment renewal.(I notice there are also complaints on other forums).
In the pursuit of excellent customer service, could you not send out an automated email, in the same way many other sites operate a few days before you automatically renew? I am sure that your customers would appreciate it, and it would reduce adverse comments posted on forums.
In my book, one disgruntled customer is one too many.
Steve
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Hi DH999,
Just one more constructive comment. As quite a number of people seem to be affected by the continuous payment renewal.(I notice there are also complaints on other forums).
In the pursuit of excellent customer service, could you not send out an automated email, in the same way many other sites operate a few days before you automatically renew? I am sure that your customers would appreciate it, and it would reduce adverse comments posted on forums.
In my book, one disgruntled customer is one too many.
Steve
Hi Steve,
Quite right, this is something we updated about a month ago.
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having read the latest comments on this convo which seems to have got heated....... the site in question must have done one heck of a lot of databasing to have "exclusive " material since last my team looked.......... AND ..we will check that out ....... thoroughly but I doubt we will find anything superior as war records were fairly tightly done.
.....as for Sophia sending constant junk mail to folk maybe you could fix that problem........... :)
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As with any genealogy site we wont necessarily have ALL the records possible, nor indeed necessarily ALL the info available on any one record. We of course aim for this, but the reality is a long way from the aim on all sites.
8><
Regarding what you believe we imply, that is of course very subjective. We don't believe we imply anything that we don't have, you believe we do. Implication by it's very nature is a personal view point.
If a statement can be misinterpreted, it will be! :)
Obviously you won't have "ALL the records possible, nor indeed necessarily ALL the info available on any one record" but putting all the information /you/ hold into a single record would be helpful. Naturally some information you hold may be overlooked for one reason or another, after all humans are involved and that's not to say a computer is actually any better.
Of course, implication is subjective and because it is not objective it's important to ensure statements or comments are accurate and cannot infer or imply anything.
If this thread has highlighted anything, it's places where the site could do with some tightening up. OK, you say the subscription is shown on the payment page as being a rolling one. In the eagerness to hopefully find out more, it's liable to be overlooked, so repeat it in that the subscription will be renewed automatically unless cancelled by a specified date. Then repeat it in again in the confirmation email.
There is a site which is written by programmers without a clue on how users actually search or use the site. Every time they "improve" it, they makes more and more of a pig's ear of it. The quickest way of finding anything I want on there is to make a couple of attempts that fail and have a grumble to their support which invariably produces the required link to the information! That is not a good way to search. It might save my frustration and hair pulling but it wastes the site support staff's time. All it needs is a little attention to the search terms used by users and a lot less to how a programmer thinks the search terms should be phrased.
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Hi Connie,
I absolutely respect your points.
We of course do not want inaccuracies and a medal on our site that doesn't exist would to me sound like the record we gleaned this from to be incorrect, but of course I could be incorrect, to err is human.
I also of course understand, if you want one record, and you find that record is inaccurate it taints your whole experience. I do however honestly believe we have the most accurate records possible as we try to ensure there are extremely few human errors, and our only errors coming from the document transcribed.
You are to be commended for endeavouring to ensure your records are as accurate as possible. Any responsible site should be striving to this end. Any site that doesn't and won't listen to users isn't worth the subscription, even one at the best price.
Elizabeth's erroneous military medals only appear on your site. I've not seen any mention of any medals anywhere else.
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OK, you say the subscription is shown on the payment page as being a rolling one. In the eagerness to hopefully find out more, it's liable to be overlooked, so repeat it in that the subscription will be renewed automatically unless cancelled by a specified date. Then repeat it in again in the confirmation email.
It still comes back to the member having to shoulder some responsibility. Are people really that eager that they cant take 5 minutes to read what they are "signing" up for ??? Or they would rather be hand held through the whole process like children and keep having things repeated to them ???
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I've put myself forward to answer anyone's serious queries.
If anyone else has anything they'd like to ask I'm happy to respond.
Your one brave person ;D
Whether people agree or disagree with you i commend you on putting your hand up and replying to this thread.
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I also commend DH999 for putting a head above the parapet.
If you go to your profile on the site it is an easy step to unclick the auto renewal box as I have now done. You then get an e mail confirmation within a short time.
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In my professional experience, over 80% of people doing genealogy are beginners, [...]
I have explained the medal situation previously, but there are many, many other mistakes someone without local knowledge, let alone local language makes.
Wow! Talk about adding insult to injury! :D
In my experience, a good 80% of people doing genealogy are definitely NOT beginners. About 20% are beginners. A small percentage will fall by the wayside when they discover they can't simply pick up a weighty volume and find their entire family history all nicely printed out. Others will declare their family tree completed when they get to 1837.
There are many, many experienced researchers on Rootschat, genealogical mailing list, newsgroups and forums as well as some professionals
My own experience dates back 50 years, professionally, semi professionally and amateur.
Does "local language" mean non native English speakers or those unfamiliar with county dialects of which there are many? :)
Methinks it might be time to put away the JCB for I fear the gentleman doth protesteth too much <G>
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It still comes back to the member having to shoulder some responsibility. Are people really that eager that they cant take 5 minutes to read what they are "signing" up for ??? Or they would rather be hand held through the whole process like children and keep having things repeated to them ???
Sure anyone signing up to anything should take some responsibility for their actions. When it comes to genealogical sites, I don't believe every one does read the small print. Maybe because it is in a very small type face, because there is too much of it, because it's too complicated or any or all of the above.
I doubt anyone wants to be treated like a child but there are times when being absolutely, completely and utterly clear is necessary; especially when it comes to money. I must admit I don't much like these rolling subscriptions. Far better (IMO of course) to block access when the subscription runs out. Email reminders can be directed to a junk mail folder so be missed. A redirection to a page that says in BIG letters "Your subscription has expired" is more likely to send someone scrambling for their plastic to renew, and better for the site so there aren't threads like this one :)
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Hi DH999
Thanks for coming and answering some questions about the site. I have found the discussions very interesting. :)
I hope that we can all get along and continue this interesting discussion without things getting too heated. People are entitled to an opinion and to respond to comments - but please can we remember to treat each other with the respect Rootschat expects :).
I have a couple of queries to add if I may...
You say here "this is something we updated a month ago". What are you referring to specifically. Are you saying that the site will now be sending out reminders before a renewal is done or have I mis-understood?
Hi DH999,
Just one more constructive comment. As quite a number of people seem to be affected by the continuous payment renewal.(I notice there are also complaints on other forums).
In the pursuit of excellent customer service, could you not send out an automated email, in the same way many other sites operate a few days before you automatically renew? I am sure that your customers would appreciate it, and it would reduce adverse comments posted on forums.
In my book, one disgruntled customer is one too many.
Steve
Hi Steve,
Quite right, this is something we updated about a month ago.
And secondly, something people are really interested in is what you have EXCLUSIVELY - and I can now see from the link you gave that these are marked with a yellow star. This exclusive material does appear to have grown over recent years so thumbs up for that.
But... what I would like to clarify is what the FWR definition of "exclusive" is as some of those marked have WO National Archive References or are transcribed from books. Doesn't this mean the info is therefore available elsewhere?
Also - collections such as the 1861 Census Serving Personnel - is this really exclusive information? Is it extracted from the main 1861 Census - or is it info that does NOT appear in 1861 Census on any other site?
Thanks
Milly
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I have been doing my genealogy and sometimes work for others for about 35 years. I have only paid for (to use) three sites and the information they offer.
a. GRO London/Southport
b. Durham Records Online
c. Scotlands People/Register House, Edinburgh
One site that shall remain nameless charges according to whether the user is either a "red" member or a "green" member and non-members who have good information may have to pay to help others on the site. Needless to say I do not get involved in that site.
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Thought that this was relevant to the thread -
The Office of Fair Trading principles for Continuous Automated Payments states that before the contract......
Consumer consent to a CPA should not be assumed - such as through the use of opt out provisions. The consumer must positively indicate their informed consent to the use of a CPA. For example, where a consumer is offered a free trial, after which payment will be taken, the consumer will be asked to agree to the actual liability before any payments are taken. Failure to do so may result in the contract being considered unenforceable. They should not just be contained in "Terms and Conditions".
Source - Office of Fair Trading Website
The full OFT principles for CAP's can be found here...
http://www.oft.gov.uk/business-advice/treating-customers-fairly/cpa-principles/
If the customer is asked to agree the actual liability before any payment is taken as above, then there can be no argument after the event.
Steve
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having read the latest comments on this convo which seems to have got heated....... the site in question must have done one heck of a lot of databasing to have "exclusive " material since last my team looked.......... AND ..we will check that out ....... thoroughly but I doubt we will find anything superior as war records were fairly tightly done.
.....as for Sophia sending constant junk mail to folk maybe you could fix that problem........... :)
I'm really confused by your comments fastfusion.
Are you saying by 'tightly done' that you believe you have all British and Commonwealth records possible?
We have professional researches at TNA every working day of the week and are finding information not on any other sites almost daily.
We currently have over 1 million records waiting to be transcribed not on any other site.
Of course, new collections may have some records we and other sites may hold, but most also hold new personnel records as well.
Regarding emails, if you send me your email address and I'll ensure you are unsubscribed. I'm assuming you clicked on the link in any of the the emails you received to unsubscribe?
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I've put myself forward to answer anyone's serious queries.
If anyone else has anything they'd like to ask I'm happy to respond.
Your one brave person ;D
Whether people agree or disagree with you i commend you on putting your hand up and replying to this thread.
Thank you giblet. Just trying to show we're not monsters, and are really here to try and help!
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In my professional experience, over 80% of people doing genealogy are beginners, [...]
I have explained the medal situation previously, but there are many, many other mistakes someone without local knowledge, let alone local language makes.
Wow! Talk about adding insult to injury! :D
In my experience, a good 80% of people doing genealogy are definitely NOT beginners. About 20% are beginners. A small percentage will fall by the wayside when they discover they can't simply pick up a weighty volume and find their entire family history all nicely printed out. Others will declare their family tree completed when they get to 1837.
There are many, many experienced researchers on Rootschat, genealogical mailing list, newsgroups and forums as well as some professionals
My own experience dates back 50 years, professionally, semi professionally and amateur.
Does "local language" mean non native English speakers or those unfamiliar with county dialects of which there are many? :)
Methinks it might be time to put away the JCB for I fear the gentleman doth protesteth too much <G>
Connie,
Clearly we are not going to agree on this one, but in our opinion it was far better to employ UK speaking and based people to transcribe UK records. Hence the reason why we do and no doubt pay through the nose for it.
There are shades of grey here, but we don't believe that people whom have never lived in the UK and even worse those that are not native English speakers can be expected to be wholly accurate when transcribing UK records.
You clearly disagree. However, as I have mentioned previously, with employ professional researchers who are in TNA every day, have been in the industry almost all their working life, and of course have also used the leading genealogy websites. It was when consulting with these that we decided to base our team in the UK because of their comments about those having transcription teams abroad to be less accurate.
No idea what you last flippant comment meant, I have explained every question you have asked of me with integrity and honesty as far as I am aware.
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Hi DH999
Thanks for coming and answering some questions about the site. I have found the discussions very interesting. :)
I hope that we can all get along and continue this interesting discussion without things getting too heated. People are entitled to an opinion and to respond to comments - but please can we remember to treat each other with the respect Rootschat expects :).
I have a couple of queries to add if I may...
You say here "this is something we updated a month ago". What are you referring to specifically. Are you saying that the site will now be sending out reminders before a renewal is done or have I mis-understood?
Hi DH999,
Just one more constructive comment. As quite a number of people seem to be affected by the continuous payment renewal.(I notice there are also complaints on other forums).
In the pursuit of excellent customer service, could you not send out an automated email, in the same way many other sites operate a few days before you automatically renew? I am sure that your customers would appreciate it, and it would reduce adverse comments posted on forums.
In my book, one disgruntled customer is one too many.
Steve
Hi Steve,
Quite right, this is something we updated about a month ago.
And secondly, something people are really interested in is what you have EXCLUSIVELY - and I can now see from the link you gave that these are marked with a yellow star. This exclusive material does appear to have grown over recent years so thumbs up for that.
But... what I would like to clarify is what the FWR definition of "exclusive" is as some of those marked have WO National Archive References or are transcribed from books. Doesn't this mean the info is therefore available elsewhere?
Also - collections such as the 1861 Census Serving Personnel - is this really exclusive information? Is it extracted from the main 1861 Census - or is it info that does NOT appear in 1861 Census on any other site?
Thanks
Milly
Hi Milly,
Yes, that's correct, the renewal reminder emails.
Yes, exclusive to the web in particular. i.e. you cannot search these resources anywhere else online.
Maybe we should add a star to that comment on the webpage, however I believe that most sites use the word 'exclusive' in this fashion.
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Thankyou all for your comments and the interesting debate.
I think it is now time to lock this topic.
Milly
Armed Forces Moderator