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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Flintshire => Topic started by: NNR on Wednesday 08 January 14 14:53 GMT (UK)
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Dear all,
I'm looking for a bit of help with accessing parish registers for Mold. They don't seem to be electronically accessible anywhere, yet several lines of my family tree end up there causing a little frustration on my part!
The first record relates to Thomas Forsyth, who was born in Mold c.1835 to his parents Thomas Forsyth, a Scottish born cooper, and Elizabeth Williams, "of this parish".
The second record would relate to Thomas and Elizabeth's marriage, which would - presumably - be slightly pre-1835. By all accounts, Thomas is their first born child (of three).
The third record would be the baptismal record of Elizabeth Williams herself, who was born to John and Mary Williams in Mold sometime between 1813 and 1816 according to later censuses.
A fourth record would be the marriage - although I really know not when - between John and Mary themselves. I know they had at least one other daughter (she is living with them in the 1841 census), but I don't have her name to hand at the moment.
Finally, another of my lines ends up in Mold, too. And there I'm looking for the baptism in 1811/1812/1816 (again, censuses vary!) of Edward Simon, born to Edward Simon (or 'Symon' - spellings vary). Edward Sr. was a labourer.
Any help/guidance/pointers on any of this would be most gratefully received!
Stephen
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Can't find any of the Forsyths sorry but there is this baptism at Mold:
Edward Simon 10 Nov 1811 (born 6 Nov 1811) to Edwd and Mary (it seems to suggest that Mary was formerly Williams?), of Gwyssaney.
Deirdre
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There's this one too:
Elizabeth Wiliams, daughter of John and Mary, 11 April 1813, at Mold. John was a labourer.
Can't see a marriage for John Williams in Mold.
Deirdre
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Have you checked the "Namesfromclwyd" website?
HTH,
Megran.
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Hi Stephen
Taking one at a time:
The first record relates to Thomas Forsyth, who was born in Mold c.1835 to his parents Thomas Forsyth, a Scottish born cooper, and Elizabeth Williams, "of this parish".
Could you tell us where you found this information, please? The 'of this parish' suggests it was from a parish record.
Gadget
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To help others in searching for the family, I think they are in Liverpool (West Derby) in 1851. Thomas, snr, is now dead:
HO107/2187/362/1
Gadget
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Taking things as they arrive...
Deidre - a thousand 'thank yous'! You've helped to cement two decidedly weak areas on my tree. How is it you're able to access the Mold registers, btw? Is it on paper or electronic? If it's not too difficult, would you be able to search for potential siblings of Elizabeth and Edward? Elizabeth, I know, did have a younger sister (she's living with parents John and Mary in the 1841 census on Mold High Street (or New Street)).
Megran - I don't know this site, but I'm going to go hunting now!
Gadget - I was just using old terminology for my purposes. From census data, I know that Thomas Jr. was born in Mold, Thomas Sr. in Scotland and Elizabeth in Mold. Hence writing that Elizabeth would be "of this parish" in any potential record. Sorry for confusion!
And yes, the family are in Liverpool in 1851. Thomas Sr. dying probably in 1849. In the 1841 census, both Thomas and Elizabeth are together (in Liverpool if memory serves), but young Thomas Jr. is living with his grandparents and Aunt in Mold.
Again, thanks to all - especially Deidre! - for the interest you've taken in this...
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Do you have anything on their religion, Stephen - were the younger children baptized C of E, etc.
PS - If you go to FindMyPast, you might get something. However, we're not allowed to give info from there - T & C.
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Final bit of clarification - John and Mary's other daughter, Sarah, was born c1821 according to the 1841 census.
1841 Liverpool:
Thomas Forsyth age 30 cooper born Scotland
Elizabeth age 25 not born in county
William age 2 born in county
Mary age 9mths born in county
1841 Mold:
Thomas Forsyth age 6 born in county
John Williams age 60 "
Mary William age 60 "
Sarah Williams age 20 "
Gadget - all the families were C of E by all accounts.
Unfortunately, both my young daughter and resolutely unaffected-by-inflation wage have prevented me from being a member of any paid for genealogical sites for the past few years.
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This is very odd if they were C of E, as I'm not finding anything on John and Mary's children's baptisms. Nothing on FreeReg either. I see that Mary is down as 'not born County' in 1841.
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Sorry to be devil's advocate but how sure are you that Elizabeth was the daughter of John and Mary and her surname was Williams? If the information is from the 1841 census, then this does not give relationships. I've seen many cases where the people living in the same household weren't related in the way expected.
Do you have any birth certs of the Forsyth children born after 1837 that would give mother's maiden name?
Gadget
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Gadget, you say you've not found anything on John and Mary's children's baptisms, but Deidre (above) found Elizabeth's baptism to them in 1813.
"Sorry to be devil's advocate but how sure are you that Elizabeth was the daughter of John and Mary and her surname was Williams?"
Good question! I don't have access to my notes at the moment, and this was an area I reached several years ago. If memory serves (and this link details how I got here - then it was through finding Thomas with his Mum in the 1851 census, and spying the birthplace as Mold for the first time.
1851:
Elizabeth age 38 widow born North Wales Mold
Thomas son age 16 born North Wales Mold
William son age 10 born Liverpool
Elizabeth dau age 8 born Liverpool
But there was nothing for them in 1841 until the Mold entry was found, placing him with John and Mary Williams. A check of Elizabeth's son's William Forsyth's birth certificate showed that 'Williams' was indeed the mother's maiden name. Finally, Deidre's confirmation of the baptism of Elizabeth to John and Mary confirms what I had long suspected.
Wow, that was more difficult to justify than I'd expected!
Cheers!
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Thomas Forsyth/Elizabeth Williams marriage-1833 Liverpool St Davids(can't provide further details).
Regards
Roger
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Wow, thanks Despair! (an odd sounding sentence!)
Liverpool St. David records are as yet untranscribed on the Lancs Parish Records free site unfortunately, so that 1833 reference will have to do me for now. Is that on Find My Past, then? I note that the LDS site (http://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Liverpool_St_David,_Lancashire) states that the first five years of St. David's records (up to 1832) are available for free, which is somewhat frustrating!
If I were to sign up to whichever site has the full record, what else would I be learning of the marriage? Parents' names?
Many thanks for this!
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Hi Stephen
I missed Deidre's second post - only saw the first one. Will see what it says on the image*. I think that one of the Lancashire members might be able to help with the marriage - will send a message to a couple of them to see if they can find more info.
Gadget
* would you believe that it was the only record that I didn't look at - it doesn't give much info, though :-\
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Marriage is 6th April 1833. Both 'of the parish' . Both signed. Witnesses John Mackay and John Jones
Gadget
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Gadget,
Huge thanks for the info. Shame there's nothing of any huge detail there, but much appreciated re: getting the date cemented. I would imagine that the use of St. David's church is the reason I've not yet found any baptisms for their children who were born after Thomas.
Thanks again,
Stephen
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I've found a Mary Ellen in 1840, St Peter. Thomas is given as a labourer though - do you think it's them?
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Baptism 5th November 1840 Liverpool St Peter
Parents - Thomas and Elizabeth Forsyth.
Address is Bolton Street
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I stand corrected! Had managed to convince myself I hadn't been able to find any Forsyth baptisms in Liverpool, yet I must have come across this at some point if it's a St. Peter baptism. Thanks for jogging my useless memory!
Yes, Mary Ellen is one of the 'right' ones. William (1839) and Elizabeth (b.c.1843) are the two others, although I have the birth cert. for the former.
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.... would you be able to search for potential siblings of Elizabeth and Edward? Elizabeth, I know, did have a younger sister (she's living with parents John and Mary in the 1841 census on Mold High Street (or New Street).
Margaret Simon, 9 Oct 1803 (born 6 Oct) Edward a miner, Mary formerly Mary Williams, of Gwyssaney
William Simon, 11 May 1805 (8 May)
Charles Simon, 25 Oct 1807 (22 Oct)
Mary Simon, 25 Feb 1809 (23 Feb)
Will look for others later.
Deirdre
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Wow! Thanks Deidre, really appreciated.
Is Edward listed as a miner for all of these baptisms, or just the first?
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Only listed as a miner for Margaret's baptism, others just say Edward and Mary, formerly Williams, of Gwyssaney.
Baptisms for children of John and Mary Williams at Mold (there would appear to be two or even three John and Mary Williams ::) ):
David, 26 Feb 1809 (born 18 Feb), Mary formerly Williams, abode Mold
Mary, 30 July 1809, abode Mold
John and William, 27 Jan 1810 (born 25 Jan), formerly Jones, abode Llwynegrin
William, 11 Nov 1810 (born 5 Nov), formerly Williams, abode Mold
Sarah, 1 March 1812 (born 27 Feb), formerly Jones, abode Llwynegrin
Elizabeth, 11 April 1813, John a labourer, abode Mold
Margaret, 11 April 1813, John a labourer, abode Mold
Griffith, 16 Oct 1814, John a stone cutter, abode Llwynegrin
Roger, 24 Sep 1815, John a joiner, abode Argoed
Joseph, 12 Nov 1815, John a labourer, abode Argoed
Robert, 31 Dec 1815, John a labourer, abode Mold
Edward, 6 Mar 1816, John a labourer, abode Mold
Edward, 22 Jun 1817, John a stone cutter, abode Llwynegrin
Mary, 3 Dec 1817, John a hairdresser, abode Mold
John, 27 Dec 1817, John a joiner, abode Argoed
Bella, 25 April 1818, John a labourer, abode Argoed
Barbara, 19 July 1818, John a labourer, abode Argoed
Only looked from 1808 to 1818 (5 years either side of Elizabeth) but then realised I hadn't found the Sarah from 1841, so extended a search for Sarah and found: Sarah, 13 July 1825, John a joiner, abode Argoed [this may :-\ help with the families].
I guess this means there may be more baptisms from 1818 to 1825 but there are rather a lot of Williamses to look through.
I hope this helps, or at least gives you something to work with :).
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Deidre, thanks for going above and beyond with that huge list!
The disparities between John being a labourer from Mold when Elizabeth was born, and being a joiner of Argoed when Sarah was born are going to be quite hard to get past, though!
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Looks like with the additional info I've had a hit!
Edward Simon m. Mary Williams, Bistre, Flintshire, 13/12/1802. That's about four miles away from Gwysaney...
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Looks like with the additional info I've had a hit!
Edward Simon m. Mary Williams, Bistre, Flintshire, 13/12/1802. That's about four miles away from Gwysaney...
Edward was a widower, Mary a spinster. Both signed x.
Witnesses were: Evan Griffiths, Catherine Jones and Edward Williams. All signed x.
Deirdre
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Deidre, thanks for the quick turnaround there! I look forward to doing some digging next week and see if I can find his first marriage (and maybe kids?) somewhere...
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Do you know when he was born? Just there are 2 other Edward Simon marriages in North Wales.... found these this morning but forgot to add them.
Ruthin, 23 May 1784 to Elizabeth Thomas. Both signed x.
Chirk, 20 April 1798 to Mary Winter (this Edward was also a widower). But this Edward and Mary both signed their names.
Deirdre
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Later baptisms at Mold to John and Mary Williams (is this farmer another couple?):
Joseph, 22 Oct 1820, John a labourer, abode Argoed
Margaret, 12 Feb 1821, John a farmer, abode Hendrebiffa?
Mary, 12 Feb 1821, John a farmer, abode Hendrebiffa?
Hannah, 21 April 1821, John a labourer, abode Mold
Anne, 4 Oct 1823, John a laborer, abode Mold
Mary, 29 Jan 1824, John a labourer, abode Argoed
Harriet, 23 Mar 1825, John a labourer, abode Mold
Deirdre
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If you search the 1841 census for John Williams(1785+/- 10),with a Mary(counting only wives) in "Mold" there are 5 couples who probably cover the baptisms you have found-
2 in Argoed(one a labourer,one a joiner)
1 in Hendrebiffa(a farmer)
2iin Mold(both labourers)
I have a note of the census refs if any particular one is of interest.
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger, that makes sense - I wonder where the hairdresser fits in :-\ - but probably means that we don't have the right sisters Elizabeth and Sarah...
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I thought that they were correct because Thomas Forsyth,aged 6 is with John,Mary and Sarah,in Mold in 1841,or have I misunderstood?
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger,
John was a labourer from Mold for the Elizabeth baptism I found in 1813 but a joiner from Argoed for the Sarah I found in 1825. As there were 2 labourers from Mold and a joiner from Argoed in the 1841 census I assumed this suggested they were different families :-\.
If Sarah is right (ie as with Thomas Forsyth in 1841) then the Elizabeth is likely to be wrong.
Deirdre
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I thought that they were correct because Thomas Forsyth,aged 6 is with John,Mary and Sarah,in Mold in 1841,or have I misunderstood?
Regards
Roger
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=673251.msg5183861#msg5183861
I'd say that the Sarah bpt is not the correct one.
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I'd say that the Sarah bpt is not the correct one.
Me too, having re-read the whole topic.... ::)
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Apologies-I thought you were questioning whether the correct Sarah had been identified rather than the correct baptism for that Sarah.
Regards
Roger
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Re: the Sarah living with John and mary. I suppose there's always the possibility she's a neice or daughter in law rather than a daughter? Or perhaps she is the daughter, but the right baptism hasn't been found?
As for the Edward Simon marriages, I would have expected more than two to have takwn place in the whole of north Wales in that period. However this is me assuming simon to be as common a surname in wales as it is in England. If uncommon, then the earlier marriage would certainly seem to fit the bill. With edward being married that early, it would seem unlikely we'd glean his age from the 1841 census, but I wonder if wife #2 was still around then?
Thanks for the huge amount of work that's gone into this! I look forward to wasting my lunchbreak on monday piecing the john/mary families together (to that aim, the 1841 references to the families would be really useful, Roger).
Apologies for typos - trying to do this on a 'phone!
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On firther retlection, Sarah could, of course, be another grandchild (in the 1841)...
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1841 refs as follows(with John's occupation)
1410 11/11 14 Ag Lab New Street,Mold (Sarah,Thomas Forsyth)
1410 12/23 38 Lab Fern's Yard,Mold
1410 8/7 6 Farmer Hendrebiffa
1410 2/19 16 Joiner Argoed
1410 2/4 11 Ag Lab Argoed
Regards
Roger
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Deidre,
You stated that there were
2 other Edward Simon marriages in North Wales....
Ruthin, 23 May 1784 to Elizabeth Thomas. Both signed x.
Chirk, 20 April 1798 to Mary Winter (this Edward was also a widower). But this Edward and Mary both signed their names.
However, I've found
29/4/1777, Cilcain Flintshire to Jane Williams
21/6/1801, Nannerch F to Elizabeth Williams
10/3/1802, Cilcain F to Ann Roberts
to add to these. Do you think there may be others too? I got these from familysearch.org, which doesn't include Mold, but was wondering on the likelihood of us missing anything else!
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I think the Edward Simon marriage to Mary Winter may have been mis-allocated(?) to Chirk in the database I think Deirdre uses.In the Marriage Bonds at NLW the record gives Edward Simon,wid.,bricklayer,Llangynhafal,Mary Winter at Llandyrnog 26 Feb 1798.
Also,I noticed that in an unrelated thread yesterday,there was a baptism quoted for Sarah Williams to John and Mary at Llwynegrin 1812.This is obviously some time off the 1841 census data but very close to Elizabeth's baptism
Regards
Roger
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I think the Edward Simon marriage to Mary Winter may have been mis-allocated(?) to Chirk in the database I think Deirdre uses.
Just to confirm that this is an error. I have all of the Chirk registers from Clwyd FHS and there is no marriage for this couple there.
Gadget
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Thanks Roger and Gadget, I've checked the entry and there is no parish listed on the top of the page, but given what you know, the transcription of Chirk is obviously wrong.
Deirdre
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One way of checking on a parish is to identify (if possible) the vicar/curate on the record and then check up on the Clergy database - this for a diocese and then select the parish:
http://db.theclergydatabase.org.uk/jsp/locations/index.jsp
This for a named clergy:
http://db.theclergydatabase.org.uk/jsp/search/index.jsp
Gadget
Added ~
E.G
For Llandyrnog in 1798 , the diocese is Bangor:
Clergy:
Rector was John Warren, Curate was Thomas Clough
For Chirk: St Asaph
Clergy:
Vicar - David Price Curate - Samuel Steele
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Thanks Gadget, very useful. :)
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i find this most annoying website to use..i cant find the thread on my laptop and this suddenly sends me somewhere else...if u are looking for Mary Winter and the simons family i have some info...Mary was my ggg grand mothers Elizabeths sister. Simons fam lived in Gellifor....best wishes...Karin
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Hi Karin,
To see all your notifications you just need to click on the profile button at the top of RootsChat, click on "summery" at on the right hand side you will see "email notifications" if you click on this you will see all your notifications.
When someone replies to any of your posts we do send a notification with a link to the reply, when you click on it you are taken straight to the new reply.
Hope that this helps you.
Regards
Sarah :)