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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Pembrokeshire => Topic started by: SamnJoan on Friday 10 January 14 16:07 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone help me to trace the parents of William Harries b1817 Pembrokeshire. I believe he was married to someone called Mary.
He had children: William James Harries 1847-1906, who married Harriet Churton 1850-1917.
Mary Harries b1852
Elizabeth Harries b1858
Henry Thomas Harries b1861, who married Frances Myrtle Kinnear b1868 USA
d1944 BC Canada.
I have found a William Harries bc1817 Martletwy, Pembs in the 1871 census living with mother in law Mary Richards bc1796 Carew, Pembs - Head,
Mary Harries bc1829 Martletwy - daughter,
Martha Richards bc1862 Martletwy - Granddaughter
Henry Harries bc1865 Merthyr Tydvil, Glam - step grandson.
Have I got the right Mary for William Harries and, if so, can anyone help with his parents please?
Also, does the census mean that Mary Harries already had a daughter before marrying William, and did William already have a son Henry before his marriage to Mary?
I am confused ???
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Marriages Sep 1867
Harries William Pembroke 11a- 975
Richards Mary Pembroke 11a -975
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Marriages Mar 1842
EVANS Sarah Narberth 26- 699
HARRIS William Narberth 26- 699
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Deaths Jun 1847
Harries Sarah Narberth
26 647
Deaths Dec 1850
________________________________________
HARRIES Sarah Narberth 26 -477
Deaths Sep 1851
________________________________________
HARRIES Sarah Narberth
26 4_7
Deaths Jun 1853 (>99%)
________________________________________
Harries Sarah Elizabeth Narberth
11a 419
Deaths Jun 1854
________________________________________
Harries Sarah Narberth
11a 416
Deaths Jun 1856
________________________________________
Harries Sarah Narberth
11a 400
Deaths Mar 1860
________________________________________
Harries Sarah Pembroke
11a 463
Deaths Sep 1864 (>99%)
________________________________________
Harries Sarah Narberth
11a 445
________________________________________
Deaths Dec 1864 (>99%)
________________________________________
HARRIES Sarah Narberth
11a 552
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From my transcript of the Monkton St Nicholas Parish Registers 1711 to 1930’s I note the following
28 Feb 1817 William to William & Mary Harries of Hundleton a Shoemaker baptized by Chas Philipps
14 Mar 1819 George to William & Mary Harries of Hundleton a Shoemaker baptized by C Philipps.
16 Mar 1823 Joshua to William & Mary Harries of Hundleton a Shoemaker baptized by C. Philipps.
William & Mary Harries (nee’ unknown at present) of Monkton did not marry in the Pembroke area.
A William Harries is baptized at Martletwy on the 09 Feb 1817
1871 Mary Richards a widow continues to farm Rushmoor (abt 5 acres) in Martletwy after the death of her husband William Richards.
1861 Wm & Mary Richards have changed their trade still live at Rushmoor Martletwy whilst Wm is a Quarry man quite possibly at Landshipping quarry and mines.
1851 Wm & Mary are at Rushmoor, Martletwy William a labourer is farming 5 acres of land
1841 I suspect that William & Mary Richards reside at Carew next door to the French Flour Mill, now a tourist attraction, prior to their move just down the road to Rushmoor Martletwy.
I suspect that William husband of Mary Richards died in 3rd Qtr 1870 at the age of 74 yrs.
Henry Thomas Harries born 2nd Qtr of 1869 iNarberth Reg District s not baptized in any established church in the area of Carew - Martletwy
I note that Harriet Susanna Churton had been born in 1850 in the Oswestry area of Salop, the dau of Joseph & Harriet Churton of Beatrice Street Oswestry.
1881 shows that William J. Harries and his wife Harriet S. Harries are born in Liverpool and Oswestry respectively, which must call into question if you have the correct couple mentioned in the beginning of your thread. Ofcourse I may well be far wrong.
Not sure if I have helped or hindered your research
Rgds
Owen Ap Benfro
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Hi genechaser
Thankyou for your reply. I don't think that the William and Sarah Harries that you mention are mine, as my William's wife's name was definitely Mary - as confirmed on the 1861 Liverpool census, which includes their children.
Thanks anyway,
Joan
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Hi Orielbenfro
Thankyou for that wealth of information.
No, I'm not sure that I have the right William and Mary. I understand William was born in Pembrokeshire - information that came from an aunt, now deceased. He was definitely Welsh and moved to Liverpool before any of his children were born and, maybe but I'm don't know, before he was married.
On the 1861 census it clearly states that both he and Mary, his wife, were from Wales. William was a joiner.
I have been unable to locate a marriage for William and Mary so far.
From your information, Mary Richards does not seem to be the wife of my William Harries.
Many thanks for your help.
Joan
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do you have a copy of William James's birth cert? That would give you his mother's maiden name. This looks like the registration
William James Harris dec qtr 1847 W. Derby vol 20 pg 958
Lancashire Online Parish Clerk website has a likely baptism
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
William James Harris bp 20/10/1847 at St Peter's Liverpool, parents William & Mary living in Normington St, Toxteth and father a shipwright. Also, a baptism for Mary to same parents 4-7-1852.
And a possible marriage at the same church
William Harris, a joiner, married Mary Morgan 16-8-1846, his father James Harris, a farmer, her father William Morgan, a glover, both spouses residing at Queen Ann Street, and witnesses Thomas Harris & Ann Morgan.
GRO ref William Harris sep qtr 1846 Liverpool vol 20 pg 193 with Mary Morgan on the same page.
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well, it's not an uncommon name in Wales, but there is this William of matching age and occupation
1841 Treowen, Pembroke Dock HO107/1451/1 folio 61 pg 23
James James 25 joiner
Eliza James 5
Esther Edwards 18
William Harries 24 joiner
James Harries 22 smith
:-\
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I've had another look for Mary and think I have a possible family for her. 1851 census shows a helpful sister, although they both just have Wales as place of birth. Do both William & Mary die between 1861 & 1871? There's a possible for Henry Thomas from the 1861 census in an orphanage in 1871.
1851 73 Dublin St, Liverpool HO107/2177 folio 367 pg 76
Mary Harris head mar 32 husband at Sea b. Wales
Wm. Jas. son 3 b. Lancashire, Liverpool
Cathe. Cordon sister widow 30 b. Wales
Sarah Edwards servant 21 b. Wales
possible marriage
Catharine Morgan jun qtr 1844 Liverpool vol 20 pg 214 with Joseph Simpson Cordin on the same page
possible 1841 Lower Perry St, Liverpool HO107/568/24 folio 21 pg 1
William Morgan 45 boarding master
Mary 50
Lewis 15
Mary 20
Catherine 20
Ann 15
all not born in county
possible for sister Ann & mother Mary in 1851
3 Salthouse Lane, Liverpool HO107/2181 folio 125 pg 23
Ann Morgan head 26 victualler b. Wales, Llandilo, Carmarthenshire
Mary Morgan visitor widow 71 b. Llandilo
Thomas Jones 24 mariner b. Wales, Port Talbot
Harriet Guard 17 general servant b. Falmouth
There are possible baptisms for a similar family in Llandeilo Fawr, Carmarthenshire
baptism for Mary 12 Oct 1819
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X1RN-QLR
and in same batch there are baptisms to the same parents for
Lewis 25/6/1826
Ann bp 22/12/1822
Catherine bp 11/5/1821
Margaret bp 10/7/1814
Thomas bp 21/7/1813
problem being that William does not show as a glover on the baptisms I have access to, but he is a victualler on Margaret's. Also, I'm reliant on a transcription for the marriage details, so the glover might not be correct. If you'd believe the transcription of the 1851 census, Mary's husband was at Tea!
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Hi osprey
Thankyou so much for all that information. It has taken me a while to digest it all! I'm pretty sure you have found me the right marriage between William and Mary. It must have taken hours of digging.
No, I don't have a birth cert. for William and I have been unable, so far, to find dates of death for him or Mary. Their last child, Henry Thomas, was born 1861 so maybe his mother died in childbirth, or soon after. This would account for him being in an orphanage, poor little thing, particularly if his father was at sea. I wonder what happened to his siblings, especially Mary b1852 and her sister Elizabeth b1858.
William James Harries was born 03.10.1847, which fits with the baptism you have found, and his sister Mary was born 1852. Also, I have William as a joiner. The marriage between William Harries and Mary Morgan in 1846 seems to fit and the baptism in Llandeilo Fawr, Camarthenshire 12.10.1819 also sounds a possibility.
So it seems that Mary came from Llandeilo and William from not far away, possibly in Pembrokeshire as my husband's Aunt told me. Living at Pembroke Docks, aged 24, would also make sense of him ending up in Liverpool.
I can't thank you enough for all your help.
Joan
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Hi again osprey
Have just found 1861 census with the whole family living at Havelock Street. Everton, Liverpool:
William 44 Head
Mary 41
William J 13
Mary 9
Elizabeth 3
Henry Thomas 5months.
So it wasn't my Henry Thomas in the orphanage after all.
Thanks again for your help.
Joan
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it's the birth cert for William James that you should get if possible, that's the one I was referring to. It would confirm Mary's maiden name. William born c. 1817 wouldn't have a birth cert as civil registration didn't start until 1837.
I'm reasonably sure about Mary's maiden name as I found Catherine Morgan's marriage to Joseph S Cordin on the Lancashire bmd site.
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
The marriage took place in St Bride with St Saviour.
But as I said, I'm a bit worried about the difference in occupation, so sight of the marriage cert or parish entry may help. The William Morgan in the family I found was variously a victualler, druggist, shopkeeper and boarding (house) master, not a glover as in the marriage transcription.
Henry Thomas was 5 months on the 1861 census, so Mary didn't die at his birth. In 1871, he was in the Muller Orphanage in Bristol census ref RG10/2550 folio 47 pg 13. He could have been in far worse places, but it does mean that both his parents had died.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orphan_Houses,_Ashley_Down,_Bristol
By the 1881 census, he was a Chemist's assistant in Barrow in Furness RG11/4286 folio 55 pg 11, birthplace given as Everton both times.
There's a possible entry in 1871 for Mary as a draper's assistant, but Harri(e)s is a common name and there are several possible marriage entries for the name after 1871. Several possible marriage entries for Elizabeth as well.
Vaguely possible baptism for William, but I haven't access to the parish entry to check occupation
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X1TH-CLW
By the way, it's Pembroke Dock, not Docks, but a very likely place for a joiner/shipwright/ship's carpenter to be working.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pembroke_Dock
;)
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Hi osprey
Thankyou for those websites. The one about the Muller Ashley Down orphanage, in particular, was fascinating. Also, thankyou for putting me right about Pembroke Dock.
I'm sorry, but I misread your previous posting about Henry Thomas being in the orphanage as being on the 1861 census, so he was there after all. It seems that it gave him an excellent start in life. He emigrated to the US in 1885 - his occupation given as Druggist - where he married. Sometime between 1891 and 1914 the family moved to Vancouver, Canada, where Henry Thomas died in 1928.
Once again, thankyou for all your help.
Joan
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looks like he's the right one then, as his occupation later ties in. Grandfather William Morgan was a druggist on some of his children's baptisms as well.
Info on accessing the orphanage records here, there could be something about deaths of the parents as he would have had to have lost both parents to be admitted.
http://www.childrenscottagehomes.org.uk/muller_orphanage_bristol.html
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Many thanks for the link to the orphanage records. I shall get in touch with them and try to arrange a visit to Bristol when the weather improves in the spring.
Joan
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Many thanks for the link to the orphanage records. I shall get in touch with them and try to arrange a visit to Bristol when the weather improves in the spring.
Joan
Hi Joan
I've just found this thread - did you ever get in touch with us? I haven't got a record of Henry Thomas Harries, but do have a Henry Thomas Harris, son of William (a joiner) and Mary who married in Liverpool. Harris is the name on the wedding, birth and death certificates (although on Mary's it is spelt Harries).
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Re: Additional information about Wm and Mary Harries:
I can't answer the original question about the parents, have not located them.
I do have information about their deaths.
William Harries and wife Mary Harries and child Elizabeth all died in 1864 from diptheria. Pretty well wiped out the family.
Sons William James Harries and Henry Thomas Harries were orphaned, and eventually went to live with an uncle and were raised by him. Don't know how long before orphan status and living with uncle but that might explain any orphanage records.
Sister Mary (aka Polly) was also orphaned but to date have not found addition information about what happened to her.
My source: Oral history from grandmother and great-aunt. Henry Thomas Harries (mentioned in your original inquiry) was my great-grandfather. My grandmother married Edward William Harries (son of Henry Thomas Harries). The great-aunt was Frances Ruth Harries (daughter of Henry Thomas Harries). I don't have a lot of Harries information, but sat down with both on several occasions to ask them what they knew/remembered/had been told - and took notes.
My notes from conversation w grandmother and great-aunt state that both parents (Wm and Mary) and 4 children died in 1864 from diptheria - I don't know if there was an outbreak/epidemic at the time. Have not located death records - if it was widespread perhaps that would explain lack of documentation? I cannot verify 3 of the 4 children who died - only that the parents and child Elizabeth died, and 3 children survived (orphans William, Mary aka Polly, and Henry). To date, have not found names/dates of any other siblings.
To date I have not verified the parents of William and Mary - lots of people with same names.
Lots of information in this string, glad I happened across it today, and will study further to hopefully fill in some blanks.
Perhaps this will help some others searching the same family.
Kind regards,
eburdett
Can anyone help me to trace the parents of William Harries b1817 Pembrokeshire. I believe he was married to someone called Mary.
He had children: William James Harries 1847-1906, who married Harriet Churton 1850-1917.
Mary Harries b1852
Elizabeth Harries b1858
Henry Thomas Harries b1861, who married Frances Myrtle Kinnear b1868 USA
d1944 BC Canada.
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Welcome to Rootschat!
Hope you find something useful in this thread. There will have been death registrations even during a possible epidemic. One problem is that 1864 is before ages are given on the GRO Death index & there's more than one possible death reg for William, a possible for Elizabeth in jun qtr 1864 & a possible in Dec qtr 1864 for Mary.
:-\
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Re: Additional information about Wm and Mary Harries:
I can't answer the original question about the parents, have not located them.
I do have information about their deaths.
William Harries and wife Mary Harries and child Elizabeth all died in 1864 from diptheria. Pretty well wiped out the family.
Sons William James Harries and Henry Thomas Harries were orphaned, and eventually went to live with an uncle and were raised by him. Don't know how long before orphan status and living with uncle but that might explain any orphanage records.
Sister Mary (aka Polly) was also orphaned but to date have not found addition information about what happened to her.
My source: Oral history from grandmother and great-aunt. Henry Thomas Harries (mentioned in your original inquiry) was my great-grandfather. My grandmother married Edward William Harries (son of Henry Thomas Harries). The great-aunt was Frances Ruth Harries (daughter of Henry Thomas Harries). I don't have a lot of Harries information, but sat down with both on several occasions to ask them what they knew/remembered/had been told - and took notes.
My notes from conversation w grandmother and great-aunt state that both parents (Wm and Mary) and 4 children died in 1864 from diptheria - I don't know if there was an outbreak/epidemic at the time. Have not located death records - if it was widespread perhaps that would explain lack of documentation? I cannot verify 3 of the 4 children who died - only that the parents and child Elizabeth died, and 3 children survived (orphans William, Mary aka Polly, and Henry). To date, have not found names/dates of any other siblings.
To date I have not verified the parents of William and Mary - lots of people with same names.
Lots of information in this string, glad I happened across it today, and will study further to hopefully fill in some blanks.
Perhaps this will help some others searching the same family.
Kind regards,
eburdett
Can anyone help me to trace the parents of William Harries b1817 Pembrokeshire. I believe he was married to someone called Mary.
He had children: William James Harries 1847-1906, who married Harriet Churton 1850-1917.
Mary Harries b1852
Elizabeth Harries b1858
Henry Thomas Harries b1861, who married Frances Myrtle Kinnear b1868 USA
d1944 BC Canada.
According to the documents we hold for this family, at the time of application for admission:
The birth certificate gives the name as Harris.
The death certificates for William Harris (the name on the marriage and death certificates) and Mary Harries (the name on the death certificate) (nee Morgan) give the cause of death as typhus fever (28 Oct 1864) and typhoid fever (5 Oct 1864) respectively
The child's grandfathers were James Harris (farmer) and William Morgan (glover).
The father was a cabinet maker on board a ship sailing from Liverpool.
There was a grandmother, Harriet Harries, who lived at 7 Church Street, New Quay, Carmarthen.
Brother William James Harries (aged 18) lived at 2 Salisbury Street, Everton, Liverpool, employed as a merchant's clerk
Sister Mary (aged 15) was apprenticed to a dress maker in Swansea.
Sister Elizabeth was living with her uncles, Evan Harries (a sculptor) in Carmarthen and James Harris (a grocer) in Narbeth.