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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Merionethshire => Topic started by: iansum77 on Tuesday 14 January 14 13:40 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to find maiden name of Jane Lloyd(b abt 1838 in Trawsfynydd) Married to William Lloyd (1941)around 1863-5. They lived in Brongaled or Frongaled St. WL was a quarry man ans they had 4 sons, Thomas b 66,John T 67, Robert 69 and William 72. John T and William emigrated to the U.S.A. in 1907 and never returned.
I an trying to find out maiden name of Jane and about parents ofJane and also parents of her husband William Lloyd.
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Hi
Tricky:
GRO index has
June q 1861, Ffestiniog, 11b. 743
Jane Williams on same page
June q, 1864, Ffestiniog, 11b, 792
Jane Roberts on same page
NWalesBMD has both of these as civil marriages.
Also showing on NWales BMD
1864 Jane Humphreys - Ffestiniog civil marriage
Nothing that I can see on Freereg.
Gadget
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1841 census has a Jane Williams in Trawsfynydd
Park Factory, New House
HO107/1427/16/11/14
James Williams, 35, wool carder,
Cathrine, 25
William, 7
Mary, 5
Jane, 3
Lowry, 3 mths
All b. County except James
Typed wrong one up :-[
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This is the one:
HO107/1427/18/5/2
Bwllgwyn
Morris Williams,40, Quarryman
Ann, 40
William, 13
Gwen, 11
Griffith, 9
Richard, 7
Jane, 3
Sarah, 6 weeks
Gadget
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In 1851:
HO107/2512/165/9
Bwlchgwyn, Trawsfynydd
Morris, widr,51, quarryman
Anne,d,24
Jane, d, 12
Sarah, d, 10
All b. Trawsfynydd
Gadget
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I've checked for the other Janes born Trawsfynydd on the 1851.
Jane Robertses showing were born circa 1835/6
HO107/2512/149/11
HO107/2512/186/1
HO107/2512/148/9
Jane Humphreys, born circa 1837
HO107/2512/188/4
So I'd say that the Jane Williams that I've given above is the most likely.
You could also get one of the sons' birth certs to verify her maiden name.
Gadget
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I did order the certificate and it is shown as Jane Roberts but i have to find out which one.
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GRO index has
June q, 1864, Ffestiniog, 11b, 792
Jane Roberts on same page
Gadget
Looks like this might be the marriage to William Lloyd. If you get this, it should give their fathers' names/occupations.
Gadget
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I did order Marriage cert and it gets more confusing.
Jane Roberts, age 25 , Spinster, Fathers name Robert Humphrey, Ag Lab.
I found baptism and was Jane Humphreys born 8 June 1836 Bap. 10 July 1836.
1841c and 1851c as Jane Humphrey and married as Jane Roberts in 1864!
She is down as spinster on Marriage cert.
Any ideas??
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Hi Ian
On first sight, I'd say that this is an example of very late patronymics - she was Jane daughter of Robert Humphrey - ie. Jane ferch/merch Robert Humphrey ie Jane Robert(s).
Gadget
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If you look at the 1851 link that I gave:
I've checked for the other Janes born Trawsfynydd on the 1851.
........................
Jane Humphreys, born circa 1837
HO107/2512/188/4
It lists
Robert Humphrey, 55, labourer, b. Trawsfynydd
Jane, w, 57, b. Beddgelert
Jane, d, 14, b. Trawsfynydd
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
Thanks for your help.
I wonder about the fact its only on Marriage cert.
Do you think its possible she married to a Roberts before but still put spinster on the Cert?
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I suggested in my previous reply that it might be late use of the patronymic form:
Hi Ian
On first sight, I'd say that this is an example of very late patronymics - she was Jane daughter of Robert Humphrey - ie. Jane ferch/merch Robert Humphrey ie Jane Robert(s).
Gadget
See this article:
http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/helachau/patronymics.htm
Gadget
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I've found a very relevant piece in the Hayes article:
As you might expect from what I have already said, in the eastern counties, Flintshire, Denbighshire and Montgomeryshire, the number of patronymic marriages after 1837 is quite small, less than 1% between 1837 and 1900, although they are to be found as late as the 1880s even in those counties. However, when we look at the western counties that now make up Gwynedd and Anglesey, the story is very different. For all marriages between 1837 and 1900, Anglesey had 7%, Merioneth 8.5% and Caernarfonshire 13% of grooms using patronymics. If we look at the period up to 1850, the proportion is about double, so that in Caernarfonshire, about one in four grooms used the patronymic. I suspect, when we take account of the marriages which I could not be sure about and those where the bride was using a patronymic, somewhere between one third and one half of all marriages in that period would have had one or both partners using patronymics. Do not forget, I am talking about marriages in the time of the great-great grandparents of most of us.
Ref as previous post.
Dropping of the ap/ferch was the interim stage between the patronymic form and the surname form.
Gadget
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Ok, thanks Gadget.
That opens up a whole new road to my research.
The plot thickens and it gets more difficult but that very interesting article makes sense and now i can understand alot more.
Thanks again.