RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: ln4266 on Wednesday 15 January 14 19:24 GMT (UK)
-
Hi,
This is a long shot, but am wondering if anyone knows anything about the 'Nurse child' Harold Nichol listed on Henry Banks Pamplin's census in 1911. ( Address 24 Caroline Road) There is a possibility that he may be the same Harold John Nicholls who was my great, grandfather - family history suggest that he was an orphan, and lived in Wimbledon. This census suggests that he was born c 1903, and this tallies up with what I know so far. I am trying to find out where he came from, and what he did up to 1928.
My Harold John Nicholls married Leah Gregory in 1928, (daughter of Thomas and Mary Jane Gregory of Wiltshire) and I have been able to trace her family treee quite far back.
Thanks,
Laura
-
I forgot to add, does anyone know the names of any orphanages / childrenhomes etc in the area that Harold may have come from in the eraly 1900s? Thanks.
-
From freebmd
Births June qtr 1902
Harold John Nicholls Kingston 2a 367
A nurse child was sometimes an illegitimate or unwanted child being brought up by foster parents for a small fee paid by the childs mother/family. Alternatively - if the mother had died, the father may have placed the child and paid its keep.
A copy of his birth cert will give you more info
-
Thanks for your reply. All my searching keeps leading me back to that certificate, and can't seem to find any other 'Harold John' around then, so will order it, and hope that it may be the right one.
-
When and where did your Harold die?
-
The Kingston Registration District did include Wimbledon for that period so the birth reg seems a likely one. If he died 1969 onwards - his full birthdate will be shown on his death reg hence my query above
-
Thanks, you answered my question about the reg district before I typed it!
-
I can look up his death and find his birthdate so we can see if the 1902 birth is probable
-
Thanks for your help. I'm not too sure of his death date... he was on the electoral registers in Surrey in 1965 still, and his wife Leah died in Sutton Surrey in 1984, - I think he would have died in the same area, but will have to check with my relatives as to the exact date. Sorry, that's not much to go at the moment. Just to confuse things, there is a Harold John Nicholls (Junior), who may also appear in some record searches.
-
I've managed to find a death record for 1978, with birth date of 24th April 1900, so could be that one... It had been suggested that he fought in ww1, so he may have started to alter his birthdate to try and enlist towards the end...
-
Just beat me to it but there is no birth which fits that birthdate
-
family history suggest that he was an orphan, and lived in Wimbledon.
How certain are you that he was actually born in Surrey? You may be better buying a copy of the 1928 marriage cert to see if any fathers name is given
-
I've got the copy of the marriage certificate which arrived today... Place of residence is stated as Wimbledon, and that would tie-in with the 1911 census entry. Father's name is unknown, and he married in Preshute, Wiltshire, with his brother-in-law and sister-in-law as witnesses. marriage was 7th April 1928, and he states that he is 26.
-
So it's pointing to that 1902 birth entry. The absence of a fathers name would indicate he was illegitimate.
The 1911 shows the family living in the Kingston Reg District so that 1902 birth is looking more and more likely
-
Thsnks for your help - I'll get on and order the birth certificate!
Laura
-
There is a possible birth registration for
Harold John Nicholls
June qtr 1902
Reg district Kingston
ref 2A 367
Kingston takes in Wimbledon
This possibly is your man, did he have a father showing on his marriage cert?
Hope this helps
Louisa Maud
-
Hi,
Thanks for your reply. I have ordered a copy of the birth certificate, so hope it is the same Harold Nicholls / Nichol. His father on his marriage certificate is unknown.
I'm awaiting the post!
Laura
-
Hopefully you , or another member of the family knows when Harold died, if not you might not even know if this is the right man, at later dates a birth date is shown on a death cetificate
Is it possible he was a relative of Henry Bank Pamplin?
I hope you are successful with the certificate
Louisa Maud
-
Henry Banks Pamplin didn't die till 1963, his address on probate records show he still lived at the same address as 1911 census, unfortunately I can't find who lived at the same address during 1911-1963, wondered if Harold lived there, it would have been about 1923 ish I would think would be the first time he showed on an electoral register if Wimbledon is online
Louisa Maud
-
I hadn't thought of tracing the foster parents (pamplins) address - that will be my next task!
In 1928, Harold married in Preshute Wiltshire (near home of wife) and in the 1930's they moved to Worcester park in Surrey - the family and relatives then stayed in various houses in the street until the 1960s.
Haven't yet got a date of his death, but relatives should be able to help me out with that.
thanks,
laura
-
There is this birth reg which looks like son of Harold John
Birth reg
Harold John Nicholls
mother's maiden name Gregory
Dec qtr 1929
Croyden
2a 653
and this looks like his death reg
Harold John Nicholls
born 4 Nov 1929
death reg Mar 1995
age 65
Sutton
A3B 254 1A 7
so could this be Harold John (snr)'s death reg in same district?
Harold John Nicholls
born 24 April 1900
death reg Dec qtr 1978
Sutton
15 0589
I cannot find a birth reg Jun qtr 1900 - the only one I can find is the one Louisa maud found - Jun qtr 1902
It's possible that is the birth reg - death reg's are sometimes inaccurate (yearwise) they only give the birth year as that which the informant gave - not forced to be correct
Suz
-
I think I have found them on electoral roll
1930- 1939
146 Washington Rd
Parish of Cheam
Epsom Surrey
Harold John Nicholls
Leah Mary Nicholls
Death reg for Leah?
Leah Sarah M Nicholls
born 14 Mar 1899
death reg Aug 1984
age 85
Sutton
15 279
Suz
-
Hi,
Thanks for all your help. Those birth / death dates tally for Harold Junior seem to tally, and have been able to find them still living in the area (Worcester park) up until the 1960's, along with employment records with the postal service. It's just Harold's life up until 1928 that is a bit of a mystery. Will await the post for the possible birth certificate!
Laura
Topics now merged
-
I wonder if this lad had been put into some sort of service at a young age
Also what was the Pamlins to do with him or where they just nice people to foster him as a child
Henry Banks Pamplin, his probate records shows admin to Henry Herbert Pamplin, master decorator,
I am missing 2 of mine as young lads left as orphans, to date I haven't found their whereabouts prior to marriage, they married out of a familiar area which made me think they might have been in some sort of force, I have yet to find out where, no one is alive now who would know where they were
If all else fails we have to wait for the 1921 census !!
Happy hunting
Louisa Maud
-
You suggested that he may have fought in the first world war, he must have been very young
Do you know what regiment he was in? He doesn't appear to show up online as far as I can see but if you could find out his regiment it might be a good idea to write to them
Unsolved mysteries puzzle me :-\
-
If he was only born in 1902 - is it really likely he would have been old enough to have served in WW1?
-
I also wondered about Harold being old enough to serve in WW1. Family rumour suggests that when he went to sign up, there was a problem with confirming his name, because the name he had been told was his by the childrenshome (?) was different to his actual name - which was why I thought that this could relate to the spelling of Nicholls / Nichol on the 1911 census.
If the possible death certificate suggests that he was born in 1900, could it be possible that he added on a couple of years in order to sign up, and then kept those extra years added on in the future?
Apparently when he was in WW1, a photo of him next to a machine gun was taken, and this ended up in a published book, which was in the family for years, Unfortunately this was lost in a house move many years ago - that book / photo would probably provide a lot of clues!
Wish they would release the 1921 census early!
laura
-
The Birth Certificate arrived in the post today, and it does seem that Harold Nichol is Harold John Nicholls, so thanks everyone for your help!
Harold was born on the 24th April 1902, and named Harold John Nicholls. His mother was Sarah Anne Nicholls of no occupation. He was born at 2 Thornton Road, and father is not listed. What links it all together is that Sarah gives her address as 24 Caroline Road. Now to try and work out the link between Sarah and the Pamplins, and find out who she was!
Laura
-
That is a satisfactory result, I think that is your next search, perhaps the Pamplins took the poor girl in considering her circumstances
Louisa Maud
-
I'll try and see what I can find out about the address 2 Thornton Road, and also what I can find out about the Pamplins. The plot thickens!
-
Perhaps Thornton Road was a mother and baby home, she obviously went away to have her son
Happy hunting, hope you have good results
LM
-
I think i've hit a bit of a dead end... 2 Thornton Road is inhabited by a couple in their 60s in 1901, so it is possible that Sarah Anne Nicholls knew them, and wenty there to give birth...
I can't seem to find out who was living at 24 Caroline Street during the 1901 census though - any suggestions where I could find this out online?
Thanks.
-
I can't seem to find out who was living at 24 Caroline Street during the 1901 census though - any suggestions where I could find this out online?
Address search on a census is only available on FindMyPast
http://www.findmypast.co.uk
-
Thanks. Have had a look, but have 2 famililes (Mills and Commerford) living there - No Pamplins or Nicholls's unfortunately!
-
People had a very different way of life back then. They moved around a lot as very few actually owned their own house compared to the number who paid rent.
They also took in lodgers on an ad hoc basis to either help their finances or to just help a friend etc.
Sarah may not even have been from Surrey and may have only gone there to have her baby and then returned "home".
The most obvious connection to any of the 3 families mentioned would be via their wives - but none married a Nicholls.
Sarah could have been a "friend of a friend" or a distant relative of any of the families etc - the possibilities are endless and being realistic - your chances of finding her are very remote.
What is worth bearing in mind is that Harold was born in 1902 and Sarah gave Caroline St as her address at that time
However - the Pamplin's didn't marry until Sept qtr 1903 yet Harold is with them in 1911 at Caroline St.
-
Got something - see your own reply #31 above
Ethel Pamplin was nee Cox
1901 census for Ethel - she is with parents Frederick & Emma at 2 Thornton Rd
EDIT
They were also at that address in 1891
-
Thanks for your help, I don't think I would have found that! Will have a closer look at the records!
-
Had another look - thanks for pointing out what I missed earlier! It suggests that Sarah may have been known by Ethel...
Or is it possible that Sarah wasn't Harold's Mum's real name? Would it have been easy to have given a false name when registering birth?
-
The registrar would accept whatever info was given - in those days there was very little in the way of documentary proof of ID
I have tried to find a link to the Cox's and Pamplins via marriage but there is nothing obvious.
-
It's interesting that Ether has a brother named 'Harry' although that could just be a coincidence!
-
Harry was b around 1877/78 but is not on the 1881 census with Frederick & Emma. I did wonder whether he was Harold's father but without the Nicholls connection it's virtually impossible to say.
The 1881 has a Harry Cox b 1879 Wimbledon but he is with parents Henry & Annie Elizabeth (nee Halsey)
In 1881 Frederick & Emma Cox were childless and lodgers with the West family but in the same household were several "Hope" children. One of them was the William Hope visiting them in 1901
-
Thanks for your help with this. It's a mystery how they all kneweach other, but hope I'll turn up something...
-
This weekend I came across inscribed family photos that suggest that Harold stayed in touch with the Pamplins, and may have been adopted by them - the photos are inscribed 'from your sisters'.
Still unsure of his parents though!