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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Clackmannanshire => Topic started by: fifer1947 on Monday 20 January 14 20:07 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone help with census data from 1851 Tillicoultry?
Francis was born about 1843/44 so age 7 and living with his mother Helen (Hunter) Sharp born Sauchie.
I am trying to ascertain whether Francis' father Peter Sharp (coal miner) was still alive at the time of census and whether there are any children from a previous marriage.
Helen remarried after Peter's death to Robert Gillespie (also born Sauchie) Tillicoultry on March 19th 1853.
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Hi Fifer :)
This is what I can see for 1851:
Helen Laird 43 b. Clackmanan, clackmnsh
Mary Sharp 22
Betsy Sharp 21
Thomas Sharp 19
Janet Sharp 14
Ann Sharp 8
Frances Sharp 7 son b Clackmann, clackmnsh
Helen Sharp 5
John Gilfillan 4 Months grandson b. Tillicoultry, clackmnsh
Address: O Of Coalsnaughton, Tillicoultry
Monica
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Thanks Monica ;D
Not sure that helps much since Peter isn't there and no married/widowed for Helen :-\ However that is the right age for Frank (Francis) and there's only one of them :D
The Laird is confusing. Wonder if she remarried twice?
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I did think about a possible second marriage...however, I couldn;t see the following children in 1851 in my listing :-\
Peter 1835 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBKJ-TF8
Janet 1837 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBKX-XG9
Helen 1839 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBK6-BJV ...confused about this and next one for 1839
Peter 1839 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBKJ-TFX
James 1841 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBKK-9QT
These names don't match the 1851 entry do they :-\
Monica
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Saw this http://testing.lisaandroger.com/familygroup.php?familyID=F2346&tree=John
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I think they got that from my web posting I did the research @ register house and have Helen Gillespie's death cert naming the two husbands. ;D
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I did think about a possible second marriage...however, I couldn;t see the following children in 1851 in my listing :-\
Peter 1835 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBKJ-TF8
Janet 1837 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBKX-XG9
Helen 1839 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBK6-BJV ...confused about this and next one for 1839
Peter 1839 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBKJ-TFX
James 1841 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBKK-9QT
These names don't match the 1851 entry do they :-\
Monica
No they don't match, b*gger back to the drawing board ;D
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Ahhh...you're the trailblazer then ;) ;D
This makes sense with what you have, for 1861:
Robert Gillespie 51
Helen Gillespie 56
Janet Gillespie 16
Robert Gillespie 14
Thomas Gillespie 28
Ann Gillespie 19
Francis Gillespie 17
Helen Gillespie 15
Address: 93 Blair Row, Carnock Fife
1851 still not found/confirmed then I think...
Monica
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Correct ;D Yes they moved through to Fife and Francis (Frank) married Agnes Nimmo in Saline 1862 and had 13 kids! :o
Frank died in the Kinneddar Pit Disaster in 1895 (did all the research for that for The Fife Pits site too many moons ago)
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Is this Robert Gillespie in 1851 before he married Helen in 1853?
Robert Gillespie 40 coal miner
Bell Gillespie 18
Marrion Gillespie 15
Helen Gillespie 13
James Gillespie 12
Janet Gillespie 6
Robert Gillespie 4
Address: Woodhead Of Coalsnaughton, Tillicoultry
Given the address etc., there might be something ( ???) with that 1851 entry for Helen maybe.
Monica
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That would make more sense Monica
These two match with 1961
Janet Gillespie 16
Robert Gillespie 14
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Robert Gillespie married Janet Hogg in 1830 Tillicoultry and their eldest was Isobel (Belle?) born 1833 followed by James about 1840 - all I have on him. So it looks like a match for Robert and he is a widower by the looks of things
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Well I don't know where the Helen "Laird" came from but the Thomas, Ann, Francis and Helen tie up age wise with the first entry.
I think I'd better go to bed and tackle this in the morning :P
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Just adding this 1841 census which has some similarities to that 1851 entry from yesterday:
Peter Sharp 36 coal miner
Helen Sharp 35
Peter Sharp 15
Betty Sharp 12
Thomas Sharp 9
Janet Sharp 3
Address: Milesmark, Dunfermline Fife
Monica :)
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Just adding this 1841 census which has some similarities to that 1851 entry from yesterday:
Peter Sharp 36 coal miner
Helen Sharp 35
Peter Sharp 15
Betty Sharp 12
Thomas Sharp 9
Janet Sharp 3
Address: Milesmark, Dunfermline Fife
Monica :)
Oh boy I think you've found them ;D Names/ages match perfectly
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Now to try and sort out the kids!
There were two marriages Peter Sharp/Helen Hunter one in 1824 the other in 1837 but I do wonder whether the second was just a reaffirmation of the first.
Looking at it now 20 years later it is clear the first applies.
So many children died and so many spouses the law changed in 1842 to prevent women and children under 10 from working underground, before that babies were often underground with their mothers.
Amazing to think these conditions existed a couple of years off 100 years before I was born.
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To add to your woes...and maybe the reason for the two marriages. There are two couples with the same names having children around the same time, the other in Monkland area through the 1840s just as here
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYHX-P5T up to 1856 here https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQPP-67L
Bet you with both marriages being in Clackmannan that some of those late 1830 births are for one or the other of these couples. Let me see if I can find them...
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Another coal mining family ;)
From 1841 - all showing as born Scotland:
Peter Sharp 20 coal miner
Ellen Sharp 20
Peter Sharp 2
Luke Sharp 20 coal miner
Margaret Snedden 20 Coal Drawer
Address:Thrachbush, New Monkland
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I did think about a possible second marriage...however, I couldn;t see the following children in 1851 in my listing :-\
Peter 1835 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBKJ-TF8
Janet 1837 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBKX-XG9
Helen 1839 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBK6-BJV ...confused about this and next one for 1839
Peter 1839 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBKJ-TFX
James 1841 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBKK-9QT
These names don't match the 1851 entry do they :-\
Monica
May be the reason why the anomaly on the two 1839 births with only a few months apart? The Peter b. 1839 belonged to the younger couple?
Monica
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Moving on 10yrs with the younger couple, still in Lanarkshire for 1851:
Peter Sharp 36 miner b. Clackmannanshire
Helen Hunter 30 b. Clackmannanshire
David Sharp 9 b. Airdrie, Lanarkshire
Luke Sharp 7 b. Airdrie, Lanarkshire
William Sharp 3 b. Airdrie, Lanarkshire
Ann Sharp 4 Months b. Airdrie, Lanarkshire
James Hunter 19 lodger miner b. Clackmannanshire
Christina Anderson 62 lodger Pauper On The Parish 4 A Month b. Clackmannanshire
Address:Clark St 60, New Monkland
Monica
Added: If Christina Anderson was actually mother in law, and Helen was shaving off a few years, this may be her entry https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBKQ-49Y. David looks to have been second born son to this couple, so could fit.
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Janet Paterson Sharp bn 1837 Clackmannan is one of 'mine' she married Andrew Harrower in 1859 in Clackmannan but had Helen Hunter/Sharp/Gillespie with her when Helen died in 1887 at Auchterderran Fife (Andrew was the informant on her DC)
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Let's leave the Monkland/Clackmannanshire crew aside for now, or it will get (more) confusing :P
Regarding your couple, what were Helen's parents' names from her 1887 death entry? Have you made guesses on husband Peter's parents? I see some people have a Peter and Celia (cecilia) as parents for him...not convinced :-\ I would be looking at Elizabeth Paterson for mother, father Peter.
Monica
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Cecelia too young I think Peter and Cecelia didn't marry until 1811.
Definitely Peter for father I reckon and either Mary[?] or Elizabeth. Questionable child Mary to Peter and Helen.
Helen Hunter's parents were Thomas and Helen (Paterson) Hunter.
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Peter Sharp and Elizabeth Paterson had a son Peter bn 4th Feb 1803 which looks good for my Peter.
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That's the one I was looking at yesterday https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBKF-23P
Thought it was a better fit all round too.
Monica
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I think I'm going to have to consider religion because I can't find much on Thomas/Helen Hunter. Also if I remember rightly Peter/Cecelia were LDS and went off to Utah eventually. There was a large group of LDS in Clackmannan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sharp_%28Mormon%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sharp_%28Mormon%29)