RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Mum2randa on Tuesday 21 January 14 12:58 GMT (UK)
-
Hi everyone,
I have a couple of queries and hope someone can help please.
1) On the Baptismal register an Ancestor is described as a " Gent" (London Baptism). Could a person who describes himself as such also be a Silversmith by trade?
I have some pieces on conflicting information and need to clarify which is correct - or even if they all are correct.
Are you always "born to the Gentry" or can you reach that status by climbing the social ladder after accumulating wealth?
The year I am looking at is a Baptism in 1829.
2) Two members of the same family (husband and wife), both in their mid 40`s, died in January and February 1832 in London. Not having any luck establishing what happened, but have found that there was a Cholera epidemic in the area of London they lived in. This is a possible cause. My question is, does anyone know of any lists that exist of victims of this epidemic?
Very grateful for any ideas anyone may have.
-
A person could give any occupation they wished. The title of "Gent" does not necessarily mean that they were born into the "Gentry". (one of my research lines was an illiterate sailor when apprenticed but by the time of his son's marriage he was a "gentleman")
I don't think there would be a list of those who died in the cholera epidemic. Have you found their burial record to see if cause of death is named?
-
In England, the term "Gentry" usually applied to the owner of a large landed estate, whereas the term "Gent" would refer to a gentleman.
Steve
-
Do you want to give details so rootschat can't try to help?
Jennifer
-
any thanks for the responses so far everyone. I`ll try to explain the situation and see if anyone can help any further.
The family name I`m researching at the moment is "Wintle". I am trying to prove a link between Frederick Holmes Wintle born and Baptised in 1829, to James Wintle (his Father) born 1788 to George and Eden Wintle.
Frederick Holmes Wintle is shown as a Silversmith on his marriage record to Jane Eliza Turner.
His Father, James, is also shown as Silversmith on this record.
James`s father George, is also a Silversmith. I have various douments showing the apprenticeships.
However, on the Baptismal record I have for Frederick Holmes Wintle, his Father, James, is recorded as a "Gent".
Interestingly, on this Baptismal record, there are also two other children being baptised at the same time - both the children of James at the same address, but from a different mother, but that`s another story :-)).
I will try and attach the documents for you to see. Just hoping have found the correct James Wintle.
-
Trying to reduce the files enough to post....try again..
Hooray - done!
-
Holdens Directory 1811
George Wintle working silversmith & spoon maker 3 Bell Savage Yard Lugate Hill
- Wintle Pewterer 284 Kent Street Borough
Jennifer
-
In October 1812 George at the address you have given Jennifer was indicted as follows:
275. GEORGE WINTLE was indicted, for that he, on the 6th of October , feloniously did forge and counterfeit a certain impression used by the Company of Goldsmiths, in London, in pursuance of a certain Act of Parliment, made and passed in the 4th year of our Lord the King, entitled an Act for granting to his Majesty certain duties on all silver plate, made and wrought in Great Britain, and for the making and stamping of silver plate, to wit, the mark of the King's head, upon divers silver plate, to wit, one silver table-spoon and one silver fork .
The evidence goes on and George is acquitted. Part of his defence was that he now lived in the country and had passed the business to his son James.
I also have George and James listed in various directories.
My dilemma is that do I have the correct James Wintle to connect with both his son Frederick Holmes Wintle and the Father George Wintle - Gent or Silversmith? Or, can they be one and the same?
-
I assume you have tried a process of elimination?
Wintle appears to be an unusual name - are there other Wintles in a similar area around the same time, particularly with the same first names as yours? Can you put them into family groups?
It can get confusing as you often find cousins with the same occupations marrying women with the same names and living the same areas. Sometimes 'abode' can help differentiate the families if this is included on the Parish Record.
-
Sticking to the parameters by which you posed the question....I would not be at all concerned by the description of "Gent" against the baptism record.
"Gentleman" was a self-bestowed title used by and of all kinds of tradesmen. In records it is often mixed in with the more precise description of their occupation. In the case of the baptism record, we can't tell whether the description written into the minister's notes on that day came from Wintle senior himself or from the minister, who may have been too busy to ask.
So if you think you have the right baptism, the discrepancy between "Gent" and "Silversmith" is of no consequence.
-
@ Ruskie - I am working on eliminating people from this equation at the moment. Although Wintle is not such a common name, there do seem to have been quite a few around at that time, mostly in the same or related professions, not all the records give a lot of information either. Another issue are the locations as the family either moved a lot or, didn`t live where they worked. So, it is possible I suppose that James listed as 30 North Street, City Road in a trade directory, could indeed have had a family home in Church Row.
@ horselydown86 - I do think the Baptismal certificate is correct, partly because the name of the Mother given here is Eliza Tomazine. Now James`s second marriage was to Eliza Tomazine Holmes, which is presumably why the child, Frederick Holmes Wintle, has his 2nd name as Holmes.
Reassuring to hear you think that "Gent" is of no consequence. I dare say that the Minister must have been pretty busy that day, particularly with three of James`s offspring to baptise.
Really wish I could find some reason for the death of James and his 2nd wife Eliza Tomazine. It seems strange that they should both die in their 40`s in 1832 with 1 month of each other. I can only assume it was the result of the Cholera epidemic or some kind of accident. Does anyone know if there is a website (free preferably :-)) ) where one can find obituaries? I have found Frederick the son living with an Uncle at a later date (1841 census) so the whole family didn`t succumb to whatever the cause was.
-
Have you viewed the actual burial record? There could be a clue in there. I did some parish record transcriptions a while ago and noticed some marks on the pages next to peoples names, "s.p.". Eventually I worked out that the vicar had recorded who had died of small pox!
There's a record of James Wintle, North Street, City Road in the Bancruptcy Directory 1820-1843, 20 July 1824
I've also found records of a James Wintle who is a Stamp inspector (and is still alive at the end of 1832) so be careful on getting those mixed up.
I'm going to see if I can find anything else out and will let you know.
As for the Gent/silversmith thing, I wouldn't worry. Sometimes chaps wanted to elevate their status or the vicar didn't fill the register in until the end of the year and had forgotten all the details!
-
In the death duty register I found what looks like:
Wintle, Jas. Henrietta Wintle, 3 Church Row, Kennington 2, 301
-
Hi Lisajj, can you point me in the right direction for this death duty register please? I have a death record for Henrietta (18 Jan 1826) who was first wife for James and the Baptism record for the three children shows Church Row.
I wonder if she died in childbirth and the "Wintle, Jas." may have been the son of James senior? Possibly stillborn?
-
Many thanks to everyone who has helped with ideas and such. I think I am now less concerned about the discrepancy in James occupation. I am of the opinion that as he got older and (possibly) grew his wealth, he decided to change his occupation from Silversmith to Gent to elevate his status.