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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: Nettie on Tuesday 28 January 14 10:32 GMT (UK)
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This is a friend's family line and she is having all sorts of problems researching it, namely due to all the name variations for O'Callaghan / Callaghan and the fact little is known about her grandfather's family.
Working backwards,
John Patrick O'Callaghan was born 6 October 1914 in Ballyhass, Kanturk, Kerry, Ireland (he later emigrated to Australia and she has those details)
His mother was Norah Horgan born abt 1875 (from 1911 Census)
His father was Daniel Joseph Callaghan (as per the 1911 Census)
At the time of the 1911 Census, Daniel and Norah were living in Ballyhass, Roskeen, Cork, Ireland
They had been married less than a year.
With them was John Horgan, age 9, Norah's son from a previous relationship.
Given that Daniel and Norah had a child together in 1914 and named him John as well (The above mentioned John Patrick. It is thought that John Horgan may have died in the interim.
The 1911 census also has Daniel, Norah and John Horgan being born in Co Cork. However, John Patrick was under the belief his father was born in Kerry.
I know I'm putting a lot of faith in the census, which we all know isn't always that accurate, but it's all we have to go on at the moment.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001942720/ (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001942720/)
Currently there are no confirmed BMD for Daniel and Norah, or her son, John Horgan. I have not researched Cork before so if there are any specific Cork resources / sites you think might be worth checking, please let me know.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
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Hi
I just had a look and theres a possible marriage between a Daniel Callanan and Norah Horgan in 1909, Daniel - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYDQ-LJC
Norah - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYDQ-9TG
That marriage cert would be worth getting... It may have Norahs maiden name on it..... Plus it should have their fathers names on it too which would help identify them in the 1901 Census
Does you have John Patrick's birth cert, it should have his mothers maiden name on it
I wouldn't rule out Daniel being born in Kerry, I have one man who's from Tipperary in one Census and Limerick in the other!!!
Seeing as John was 9 in 1909 I searched between 1900 and 1904 for a birth record aside from the Cashel one any of them could be possibles https://familysearch.org/search/collection/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3AJohn%20%2Bsurname%3AHorgan%20%2Bbirth_place%3ACork%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1900-1904~&collection_id=1408347&birth_place1=8%2CIreland
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Thanks, Loudam. Very much appreciated. I'll pass that on and see about the next step. :D
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Let me know if you need anymore help!!
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Thanks, Loudam, I'm sure I'll be back to you! ;D
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Hi again, Loudam and anyone else who has stopped by.
I have some more information about this family thanks to the one week turn around by the GRO...amazing the difference technology makes. Last time I ordered records I did it by snail mail and it took 3 months. By fax and return email- 7 days!
Anyway, I ordered a BC for John Patrick, marriage for Daniel and Nora and DC for John Horgan and got the following in return.
A BC for John Patrick O'Callaghan listing Daniel O'Callaghan and Hanora O'Callaghan formerly Horgan as his parents. This would tend to suggest that Nora was unmarried when she had her other son John.
A MC for Daniel and Nora, with all the details given by Loudam previously.On close inspection, however, the groom is a Denis Callanan. On Monday I will fax the GRO with the original request and record they sent and see if they can locate a Daniel / Hanora marriage or whether it is Denis and the transcription was wrong.
As for young John Horgan who we presumed died somewhere between the 1911 census and 1914, when his half-brother, John Patrick, was born (given the duplication of names) there was no record found matching those details. I have found lots of families re-using names when one child dies, but I can't recall one where the first child is still alive. Even if John Horgan had gone to live with grandparents, gone away to work etc...you wouldn't think they would give the second child the same name, would you?
Any thoughts / ideas would be appreciated-thanks.
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Hi Nettie
It would appear Norah had John Horgan out of marriage.....
You could try sending this list minus the Cashel one and ask that they only send the one with a mothers name Horgan https://familysearch.org/search/collection/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3AJohn%20%2Bsurname%3AHorgan%20%2Bbirth_place%3ACork%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1901-1904~&collection_id=1408347&birth_place1=8%2CIreland
A possible reason for 2 Johns in the Family could be that Daniels father was also a John and there would have been an obligation for him to call his first son after his father... He may have also just gone off and done his own thing too before John Patrick was old enough to remember...
If the marriage cert you got has both Denis on the marriage cert instead of Daniel then the chances are that the record was mis transcribed... If you want to send me a copy of what you got let me know and I'll send you my email!!
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Thanks Loudam, I will send you a copy, thanks. The records were also for Callanan rather than Callaghan but that name seems to have more variations than I care to think about.
I had considered that both grandfathers may have been John and looked for records for Daniel and Nora which matched but I thought that could be the wrong thing to do.
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And I'm back...
Thanks to loudam I have the correct marriage now. Daniel Callaghan full age, bachelor, labourer from Ballyrusheen, father:John Callaghan married Nora Horgan, full age, spinster, domestic servant from Ballygiblin, father: Daniel Horgan on Sep 18? 1910 at Castlemagner, Kanturk.
I have spent time looking for both fathers in both censuses but have not found one I am confident with.
As far as John Horgan, Nora's son before the marriage. None of the possibilities suggested panned out and so far we can't find a birth or death record for him.
Given Daniel's father was John, I can understand why his first child with Nora was also named John (John Patrick). Although it still seems a bit odd with John Horgan in the picture.
Anyway, if anyone has the time to see if they can find these fathers on the census I would appreciate it.
I do have Daniel and Nora(h) with her son John in 1911 in Ballyhass, Roskeen.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001942720/ (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001942720/)
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Hey Nettie
Does it say if the fathers were dead on the marriage cert??
Just thinking about John Horgans birth or rather lack of it, I wonder was he registered under his Fathers surname???
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Hi loudam, it doesn't say either are deceased, although that's not to say they weren't.
As for young John Horgan, I had been thinking the same thing, especially when Nora's father came back as Daniel and not John. I thought maybe John had been his father but have no surname to go on.
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Of course!!!! Not being labelled as dead means nothing when it comes to the marriage records!!
In terms of John Horgan, We had a similar situation where we found a baptism first with mother and fathers name, no idea that the mother was actually single, we spent a good year or so trying to track down his birth cert in his baptism name for 1887, anyway I took a chance and sent off for a birth cert in the mothers maiden name but the same date of birth and there it was!! So if you've any idea where he might have been baptised it might be worth contacting them to see if theres a baptism for him that might have his fathers name on it!!
I this particular case too it seems he was named after his father rather than a grandfather!
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I was hoping to find Nora and / or her father on the 1901 census to try and narrow down a location but to no avail.
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Hey Nettie
Just looking again, who were the witnesses on their marriage?? Nora may have been on her own as such for the 1901 Census too, servant or lodger in someone elses house...
~You could try contacting the church aswell to see if theres any additional info in the register or even if one of them were from the area they married in..
Ballyhass, Ballyrusheen, and Ballygiblin are all close to Castlemagner, Kanturk so it might be worth checking to see if they'd search the records for either Daniel or Nora or even a baptism for John Horgan.....
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hi loudam,
The witnesses were James Leary and Mary Callaghan. Mary may be Daniel's sister or it may be coincidental.
I know my friend was in Cork a couple of years ago but I don't think she got to these churches due to her sister-in-law who was travelling with them being difficult. I'll check what contact she has had with them.
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Hi just saw ur post 're horgan/o'callaghan i am a granddaughter of nora horgan my father james did have a brother john and step brother john known as jack who died in 1988 also sister Mary died 1998 both buried in castlemagnier cemetery co cork anor bro dan lived in tralee also deceased i am also trying to fill gaps in family tree and wld welcome any information
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Hi Noreen,
Lovely to hear from you.
This family is difficult one to search, especially with the name variations.
Are you in Ireland or are you living elsewhere?
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Hi Nettie living in ireland in co cork quite near the cecilstown castlemagnier area had contact with the daughter of nora horgan o'callaghan so have a fair knowledge of the family my father Jim had tried to locate his brother John before he died but was unsuccessful does this link in with the information u have Noreen
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My information (I am researching for a friend) is sketchy. However, my John Patrick O'Callaghan was born in Kanturk in 1914 and baptized in Castlemanger. He died in 1976 in Victoria, Australia. He married Joan Whelan London in 1943 and had 7 children before emigrating to Australia in 1951. If you reply to this message I can PM you and pass on my friend's direct email to discuss details which I may not know.
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Hi Nettie the information so far seems to fit what I have I wld appreciate if u can pass on those details to me and we can go from there regards Noreen
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Thanks Nettie I have got in touch regards Noreen