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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Hendo on Thursday 30 January 14 22:31 GMT (UK)
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Hi
William Ferguson (c1800) was married to Jane Hamilton (1802-1875) in Peeblesshire c1837. She was born to John Hamilton & Ann Scott in Keir, Dumfriesshire. I was able to confirm these details from her Australian death registration. I have located Jane in the 1851 & 1861 Balmaghie census. She was listed as a widow & had one daughter Annie (aged 12 & 22 respectively). Their daughter Annie was born in Peeblesshire. Jane & Annie emigrated to Victoria, Australia c1870.
I am unable to find the family in the 1841 census or a death registration for William Ferguson who possibly died in either Peebles or Balmaghie. Can anyone help solve this puzzle please.
Best regards
Rob
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Can't seem to find them either in 1841 census did you try the old parish Records on Scotlands People ? :)
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Hi Rosie17
Since posting this I did find William Ferguson in the 1841 Kilbucho, Peeblesshire census on LDS. There was nothing on ScotlandsPeople for Peebles. All the data for this census matches (age 40, born c1801) but he is unaccompanied. He should have a wife wife Jane (Hamilton) Ferguson (39 yrs) & daughter Annie (aged 2). Like you, I can't find them on any 1841 census.
I spent ages trawling through possible OPR matches on ScotlandsPeople with no luck. Jane & Annie next appear on the 1851 Balmaghie census. Jane is listed as a widow. I have the MIs for Balmaghie and William doesn't appear there. Does anyone have access to the MIs for Peeblesshire? If he died in Peeblesshire that might give us the answer.
Hope you can help.
Best regards
Rob
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Hi Rob,
The William Fergusson you refer to at Kilbucho is not alone.
He is a 40 year old Agricultural Labourer and is with 3 children Janet Fergusson age 9, William Fergusson aged 7 and Margaret Fergusson aged 4. There is also a Hannah Lamb female servant age 25 in the household. They are at Southside , Kilbucho & Glenholm.
You can look at the transcription on www.freecen.org.uk. This is a free site transcribed by volunteers.
Looby :)
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Hi Looby
Looks like it's back to the old drawing board. He not the William Ferguson I'm looking for. Perhaps the MIs might be the answer. Thanks for the info.
Best regards
Rob
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Sorry Rob :)
Have you found a definite marriage between Jane Hamilton and William Ferguson.
Strangely, I think the man on the 1841 Census was married to a Susan Hamilton.
The boy William on the Census is still in Kilbucho at the 1851 Census and his birthplace is Biggar, Lanarshire. His age 17 would make his year of birth approx. 1837 - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTL3-V51
Looby :)
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Hi Rob,
You may already have this info :)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYM3-78Z
This looks to be John Hamilton born 1810 and a brother to Jane.
This John is on the 1841 and 1851 Census at Peebles, Peeblesshire with his wife Joan and children. The family's address is North Side Eastgate End (2841) and Northgate (1851) . Wondered if their 1841 location could be a help in tracing his sister.
Looby :)
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Me again Rob :P
Wonder if this is young Ann Ferguson on the 1841 =
Dalkeith Midlothian
Address High St
John Stobie age 35 Mason Journeyman born Midlothian
Helen Stobie age28 born outside Census County
Ann Stobie age 3 wks born Midlothian
Ann Ferguson age 2 born outside Census County
Same family minus Ann Ferguson on the 1851
Dalkeith Midlothian
High Street East Wilsons Land
John Stobbie age 49 Mason born Midlothian Ratho
Helen Stobbie age 39 born Dumfries Dumfriesshire
John Stobbie age 8
James Stobbie age 6
Peter Stobbie age 4 children born Dalkeith
spellings all as transcribed on www.freecen.org.uk
And found this marriage https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYSR-D2R4
31 May 1840 at Peebles John Stobie to Helen Hamilton.
Could Helen Hamilton/Stobie be Ann's aunt?
Looby :)
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Further to Loobylooayrs sleuthing in 1861 it looks like the children of John Stobie and Helen Hamilton are boarders at Donaldsons Land, Dalkeith. Although her place of birth has been given as Dalkeith Helen Stobie would appear to be in an asylum at Inveresk. There is a death for Helen Stobie in Inveresk in 1864. Assuming knew the information her death cert should give her parent's names.
William
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Hi Looby & William
Thanks for your hard work. The Hamilton connection to the Stobie family is a great find. I need some time to take this all in. Where did Jane Hamilton go in 1841? Given the marriage of Helen Hamilton to John Stobie and Helen’s birthplace being Dumfries, it is reasonable to connect Annie with the Stobies. All Janes's siblings were born in Keir, Dumfriesshire. Something must have happened to John Ferguson (?illness) that necessitated very young Annie’s absence from the family. Jane was listed as a widow in the 1851 Balmaghie census.
I did a search on ScotlandsPeople for Helen’s marriage reg in Peebles & death reg in Inveresk (Midlothian) and came up blank. We need to connect Helen to my Hamiltons. Jane’s parents were John Hamilton & Anna Scott. I have the OPR for JohnHamilton born to John Hamilton & Anna Scott in Keir, Dumfriesshire. The other siblings (that I have) are all listed on census documents as born in Keir. I couldn’t find any other birth registrations for them. Looks like we are going to have the same problem with Helen.
Where to from here?
best regards
Rob
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Rob,
There is also a marriage record for John Stobie/Helen Hamilton at Lasswade Midlothian-
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYWN-8HX
Both entries can be viewed on www.scotlandspeople.co.uk
You would be best to try for a death certificate for Helen Stobie and see if her parents names are the same as Jane Ferguson/Hamilton.
If this is Ann/Annie living with her aunt and uncle I would suspect too that William Ferguson has already died and Jane is perhaps working somewhere.
Has she an occupation in 1851 and 1861? And are Annie and her living in the same household as anyone else?
Looby :)
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As Millmoor said a Helen Stobie died at Inveresk Midlothian 1864 . Her death cert can be viewed on Scotlands People website too.
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And just before I call it a night :P
I think you will find that there could be two more Hamilton brothers- George and James - on the 1841 and 1851 Censuses with their wives and children. Both men give Keir, Dumfriesshire as their place of birth and both live at Northgate , Peebles the same as John Hamilton. Looks like the three brothers are all living on the same street.
Unfortunately it doesn't help you locate William and Jane Ferguson on the 1841 :(
Looby :)
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Hello again
Re George, James and John Hamilton who Loobylouayr located in the 1841 and 1851 censuses there are some public trees for them on An*y which you might find interesting to look at as they contain photos and other records. A death cert for James suggests that he was the son of James Hamilton, a mason. Another suggests that John emigrated to Canada in the 1850's. Do take care, however, when using public trees as they quite often contain inaccuracies. For example to my eye Georges information after 1851 does not seem to add up.
Best wishes
William
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Hello again Rob,
I have had another thought which might help trace your missing Jane and William .
You may or may not be aware that in Scotland during this period married women sometimes retained their birth surnames and did not use their husbands. Apparently there was no legal requirement to change names. Many did ...but you can come across in the Census records a whole family -dad and lots of kids with one surname i.e. Smith and the mum with another i.e. Jones. This doesn't always mean the parents were not married.
Also it was very common on the death of a husband for a woman to revert (if she'd ever changed) to her maiden name. Therefore if William was dead by 1841 Census which I have a funny feeling he could be Jane could be recorded as Jane Hamilton.
There is one Jane Hanilton aged 40 on the 1841 Census at Newton,Midlothian ---not that far from Dalkeith :). She is living at Newton Manse and is a servant working for the Minister John Adamson. This Jane is born outside the county of Midlothian. She is not recorded at the Manse 10 years later. But the Rev. John Adamson is ....and his place of birth is Peebles! Quite a coincidence!
So could this be a widowed Jane Ferguson working (if my calculations are correct :-\ ) about 2 to 3 miles away from Dalkeith. Unfortunately due to the lack of info on the 1841 you may never be 100% sure if you've found the right woman, unless she is living with people/relatives you can connect her to.
And of course William could still be alive and the couple could be hiding ;D and working somewhere else. Looking at the English Census 1841 is another option. Finding a grave/headstone for William might be problematic. I don't know how extensively Scottish graveyards have been researched and transcribed or how available they are online. You don't know where William died?? And they like many many other Scots might not have been able to afford a stone.
Do you have the OPR of Jane and William's marriage? What record do you have of his existence?
Is Jane working as a servant /housekeeper in 1851 and 1861?
Looby :)
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Just to add that I am pretty sure that both John and George Hamilton and their families emigrated to Canada in the 1850's and were pioneer families in the township of Elma, Perth County, Ontario. They both appear in the 1861 Ontario Census with their wives who are named as Joan Bryden and Mary Small respectively. I stumbled across this by googling Hamilton Elma Perth Ontario. This might suggest that they are brothers or at the very least related.
William
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The grave of John Hamilton is on the Find a Grave site where his place of birth is given as Keir, Dumfries. It also has details of his wife and children. He died March 27 1887 in Elma.
Further to Loobylouayrs post re Jane Hamilton in Newton have you considered the possibility that Anne Ferguson was born out of wedlock? If so the kirk session records, sadly yet not online, for Peebles might shed some light.
William
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I was thinking a long the same lines that maybe they were not married but if they were good church member's there should be a baptism saying if she was illegitimate ....I have came across this on some of my researches
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Hi Rob
Just in case you hadn't seen them there are photographs of the graves of Jane and Ann Ferguson on billion graves . com.
William
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Yes, I've wondered about Annie being born out of wedlock.
But Rob states in his first post that William and Jane married in Peebleshire circa 1837 :-\
As I asked earlier, Rob, do you have the OPR of the couple's marriage ? Or the OPR of Annie's birth?
What record do you have of William Ferguson? Is it just from information provided by Jane and Annie in Australia?
Looby :)
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Hi Looby & William
(Tried to post a reply yesterday but it wouldn't work. I shall cut'n'paste yesterdays reply from a word doc.) I will then attempt to supply answeres to some of the questions posed. You may find some of them in the post below
"I attempted to find the death reg for Helen Stobie, Stobbie & Hamilton at Inveresk, Midlothian on ScotlandsPeople but found nothing. I shall try again. I also tried for the marriage reg (OPR) at Peebles for John Stobie & Helen Hamilton. Likewise – no record found. I will try again.
I have the following born to John Hamilton (c1780-) & Anna Scott (c1782-) in Keir, Dumfriesshire:
*Jane (1802-1875) (info supplied in Victorian death reg)
*Margaret (1805-1889) (infor supplied in Victorian death reg)
*John (1810-1887) -the only one with OPR Births from ScotlandsPeople.
I was aware of George & James (also born in Keir) from Peebles census record but haven’t been able to find the OPR on ScotlandsPeople. I established the connection to John & Anna for Jane & Margaret through their death regs in Victoria, Australia.
There was no occupation listed for Jane (listed as Ferguson, born in Keir, Dumfriesshire & a widow)on the 1861 Balmaghie census. She was living with just Annie (also listed as Ferguson, born in Peebles)) who was listed as a milliner. Probably supporting her 62 year old mother who was listed as head of the household.
I could not find the actual 1851 Balmaghie census document on ScotlandsPeople. I was able to get a transcription on Findmypast. Jane is listed as Ferguson widow, head of the household, no occupation & born in Keir. Annie is listed as a 12 year old scholar born in Peebles. Perhaps Jane was living on the proceeds of Williams estate. I searched for a will for William Ferguson on ScotlandsPeople and came up empty.
I will have to search for Jane on the 1841 census again. Might be lucky this time. Hope I can find her death reg as that would clinch it. What about MIs for William Ferguson? Wouldn’t they help? I have searched the Balmaghie MIs with no luck there.
Thanks for all your help
Best regards
Rob"
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Hi Rob
I have downloaded the death cert for Helen Stobie. It says parents unknown as the informant was an attendant in the asylum where she died. The entry says she was a pauper lunatic and the widow of John Stobie mason. She died of TB age 50 on 29 Jan 1864 at Millholm House Asylum Musselburgh. I suspect that it will therefore be impossible to prove that she was Jane's sister.
William
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Poor Helen Stobie.
Comfirming her marriage in Peebles will connect her to the town.
There are hardly any Hamiltons in the whole of Peebleshire at the time of 1841 Census. In fact according to Freecen there are 33 adults and children, and most of the adults were not born in the County.
The evidence connecting Helen Hamilton to Jane Hamilton is
1. They both give place of birth as Dumfriesshire.
2 Helen marrys in Peebles where there are very few Hamiltons in residence.
3. Helen's daughter is called Ann (mother's mother :-\)
4. Helen has a 2 year old Ann Ferguson with her on 1841 Census
As Millmoor says unfortunately you may never prove for certain that the women were sisters but I think there is a very good likelihood that they are connected.
to find the Stobie's marriage in OLD PARISH RECORDS on Scotlands People search Stobie John -Peebles Peebleshire and/or Stobie John -Lasswade Midlothian.
Also 1851 Census - Scotlands People has a Jane Ferguson age 50 with second person forename Anne at Balmaghie Kircudbrightshire :). You should be able to view the image.
Someone must have been financially supporting Jane at this time ( family members) if she was not working. I'm not sure about the possibilty of living off her husbands estate :-\ for ten/twenty years.
I still think William was dead pre 1841 (if he was married to Jane) and she is a widow at the time of that Census. William could have died in Peebles or Midlothian or anywhere.
Looby :)
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Hi Looby & William
Well the marriage bans from both Peebles & Lasswade (Dalkeith) were for the same couple. I assume they wanted to let both communities know. Thanks for the tip. Even though there is no birth reg for Helen (Hamilton) Stobie, nor any of John Hamilton & Anna Scott (except for son John) children, the consistency of data such as occupation (carter, mason), address (northgate or similar) & continuity of Christian names leads to the obvious conclusion that they are all related in some way. The Hamiltons in Alma confirm the link.
Is it possible to get a copy of the death registration for Helen Stobie?
I don't have a marriage reg for John Hamilton (c 1780) & Anna Scott (c1782) and the birth year was worked out on the birth date of the youngest (Jane Hamilton 1802-1875). The other thought is that perhaps John & Anna had Jane, Margaret, ?George (not sure if he is in fact a son or nephew, born in Keir) & John in Keir and the moved to Peeblesshire or Midlothian. I have searched for death regs in both areas with no luck.
Thankyou again for all your help and for suggesting the link to Dalkeith. John's son James Hamilton's wife Marion Callender was from Dalkeith. There are so many ties to Midlothian that I wasn't aware of before.
Cheers
Rob
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Hi Rob
You are welcome to have a copy of Helen Stobies death. Send me a pm.and we can arrange.
Re the marriage banns this was common practice to have the proclamation in both parishes. I think we can assume that Helens parish at that time was Peebles and Johns was Lasswade. Midlothian at that time was growing industrially with the development of the coalfield. Peebles remains a much more rural county.
Might be worth contacting the Borders FHS to see if there are any MIs for Peebles regarding John and Anna.
William
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Hi William
Thanks again for your assistance & advice. I will send you a PM.
Best regards
Rob
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Hi Rob,
Have you came to any solution as to why Jane and Annie ended up in Balmaghie when the rest of her family are in Peebles and Dalkeith?
Looby :)
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Hi Looby
At last a question I can answer (with confidence). Jane's sister Margaret Hamilton married Alexander Charters in Laurieston, parish of Balmaghie in 1829. When I couldn't locate Jane & Ann in Peebles in the 1841 census, my first thought was her sister in Balmaghie. That worked for the 1851 & 1861 census, but that was as far as I got.
Thanks again for your help.
Rob
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That explains the move to Balmaghie.
I wondered why Jane and Ann would end up there and thought there had to be a family connection.
Did Margaret and Alexander Charters go to Australia too?
Looby :)
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I am now racking my brains ???
I came across the name Chartres when looking for Jane and Annie the other day ( very similar to Charters). I almost made a post asking if the name meant anything to you. Now I can't remember where I saw it :-[ .
Going to have a coffee and a good think,
Looby :)
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Hi Looby
Yes Margaret (Hamilton) Chartres came to Bung Bong, Victoria, Australia with her daughter Agnes in 1861. Jane (Hamilton) Ferguson & daughter Ann came out a lot later, 1870. The name Chartres was an innovation from the early to mid 1800s. Prior to that & often beyond that time the original name of Charters was used. Even on some records in Australia one can find Charters for one family member and Chartres for another. The Charters family of Balmaghie has an illustrious past dating back to the 1600s. The estate was known as Duchrae then. Now known as Hensol Estate.
There is a castle/mansion and numerous farm on the estate.
Cheers
Rob
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The census for 1851 in Balmaghie has been transcribed by Maxwell Ancestry. It is a useful site for the south of Scotland. Might be worth looking at. The searches are free!
William
http://www.maxwellancestry.com/census/default.htm
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Hi Rob,
Remembered where I came across the name - and it was actually Charteris.
I found a marriage in Dumfriesshire of a Jean (Jane&Jean were interchangeable names) Hamilton to a John Charteris . But it was not your Jane.
I'd been considering an earlier marriage for Jane , wondering if she had already been widowed prior to William Ferguson. For let's face, in the early/mid 1800s Scotland, Jane was at approx 38 quite elderly :P for being a first time mum ( this comes from a Scottish lass who gave birth at 38!). But during those times most women were married young and giving birth throughout their 20's to 40's. Therefore I wondered if Annie was the result of a second marriage. But I haven't came across any evidence of that - the above Charteris couple were having children in the 1830s and 40s and are on the Censuses.
It could have been that Jane was never married , that Annie was called by her father's surname and that Jane took the surname and called herself a widow to appear "respectable". This would not have been unusual :). Have you found an OPR of either a marriage for Jane or a birth for Annie?
Might be that none exists. Not everyone was married by the parish church minister. Not all births were recorded by the parish. :( Not great for us family history researchers.
Same applies for records/MI's for John Hamilton & Anna Scott, unfortunately. Not to say there won't be any, but....good chance there's not.
Have you came across this website http://edina.ac.uk/stat-acc-scot/
Scroll down to where it reads For Non Subscribers. Browse scanned pages . Click on it. Then you can search by Parish name i.e Keir or Peebles. You will have a choice of 2 reports to read from different years - circa 1790s and 1830s/40s written by the Parish minister. They can make fascinating reading and although it's unusual for a person to be named it gives you a flavour of life and conditions in the parish (the ministers are always complaining about drink!).
The Rev. Adamson of Newton Midlothian, who I suspect Jane could be employed by at the time of the 1841 Census, has written the report on Newton Feb 1845.
*Warning* Reading these reports can become highly addictive ;D ;D. I spent hours on this site!
Looby :)
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Hi Looby & William
Thanks for the link to Maxwell Ancestry. I spent a fair bit of time on there last night. No new discoveries yet. The Jean Hamilton & John Charteris was not connected to our Charters/Hamilton family (as far as I know). The Charters family has a considerable history in the Balmaghie distict, but that doesn't mean members didn't go further afield. The name Charteris does appear in Balmaghie so there is every possibility of a connection. Ironically, Ann Ferguson (Jane Hamilton's daughter) married William Chartres in Victoria, Australia.
With reference to a prior marriage for Jane (Hamilton) Ferguson, her death registration only lists one marriage to William Ferguson in Peeblesshire, Scotland at 36 years of age. It also states that she was born in Peeblesshire & had only been in Victoria for 5 years when she died.
Interestingly, the 1851 & 1861 Balmaghie census shows her birthplace as Keir, Dumfriesshire & daughter Ann as born in Peebles, Peeblesshire. Both death registration state the opposite. The informant for Jane's death was her nephew George Henderson (my gg grandfather). The informant for Ann's death was the undertaker from Avoca, HF Glassen (as husband William had predeceased her in 1904). I believe that the census was correct (same info 10 years apart) & the informants may have got it wrong. This may leave the door open for a previous marriage in Peebles.
As you enquired previously and I'm not sure if I gave you the info, I have been unable to find a birth reg for Jane, marriage reg for Jane to William Ferguson or birth reg for Ann. I have searched both under the name Hamilton & Ferguson.
Thanks for the link the Statistical Accounts of Scotland. I have been on this site a few years ago but had lost the link. It's great & gives good description of life in the Parish.
I'll have to do some more browsing.
I have searched fruitlessly for a link between Jane Hamilton & Helen Hamilton & Keir, specifically John Hamilton & Anna Scott (Jane, Margaret & John Hamilton's parents) on Ancestry, ScotlandsPeople, LDS, etc. I even found a wife (Christina McKenzie) for John & Helen Stobie's eldest son, John on Ancestry. They were married in1866) in Cannongate, Edinburgh. Unfortunately, the only info relevant to the Hamiltons that I was able to glean from the certificate was that his parents were John Stobie (stonemason journeyman deceased) & Helen Hamilton (deceased).
I'll keep plodding on and thanks again for all your wonderful help.
Cheers
Rob
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I am descended from John Hamilton (b. 1810 in the parish of Keir, d. 1877 in Elma twp., Perth county, Ontario, Canada), son of John Hamilton and Anna Scott of Windsover, near Auldgirth in the parish of Keir, Dumfries-shire. He moved to Peebles in the 1830s where his older brothers George and James lived. He and George later emigrated to Canada in 1854, while James stayed in Peebles.
John mentioned his parents as John Hamilton and Anna at his second marriage in 1883 and also in the Scottish census records in Peebles (1851) it mentions his birthplace as Keir, Dumfries. The parish registers of Dumfries then show a John, son of John Hamilton and Anna Scott of Windsover in the parish of Keir. This John would be the brother of the emigrants to Australia.
Windsover cottages date from the early 1800s and are listed buildings. I wonder if there are any property records that give further information on our elusive couple?
Jamie Reid
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Hi William
Re the marriage of John HAMILTON to Jessie M, Ancestry has her surname recorded as NOICE. I have studied the marriage registration and it appears to read 'ANNICE'. I notice there was no death date listed for Jessie M & they married in Elma when she was 65. She was born in Scotland to William & Mary ? ANNICE. Do you have any further data that could shed some light on this issue?
The other issue with John HAMILTON, I have him as the brother of Margaret (HAMILTON) CHARTRES born in Keir, Dumfriesshire & farmers wife in Balmaghie, Kirkcudbrightshire who emigrated to Victoria, Australia in 1861 with her daughter Agnes (CHARTRES) HENDERSON & 2 grandchildren Margaret & Alexander on the Great Tasmania.
Hope this helps & am looking forward to your thoughts re NOICE vs ANNICE.
Best regards
Rob
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I will check on the Noice surname bit.
For all interested in the Hamiltons, here is some interesting information. I have in my possession the autobiography of my great-great grandfather, Thomas Smith (1836-1920) of Elma township, Perth county, Ontario. His wife was Ellen Hamilton (1844-1912), daughter of John Hamilton (1810-1887) and Joan Bryden (1807-1879). In Thomas Smith's autobiography of c. 1915, he includes some information on his wife's family, and notes that John Hamilton of Peebles had two older brothers, James and George, and a sister Ellen (namesake of his wife). He states that Ellen was married to a "Spaulding" although I have not been able to find any such record. (There is the possibility that this part of the autobiography (and "Spaulding") suffered from mis-transcription - only the typewritten version survives from the 1960s, whereas the original hand-written copy was accidentally destroyed in the 1990s by a relative in whose possession it had come to rest.)
Thus Thomas Smith was not aware of the older sisters of John Hamilton (Jane Ferguson and Margaret Muir Charters) as they were not in Peebles when Ellen Hamilton (1844-1912) was a little girl before moving to Canada in 1854 with her parents. But their relationship is confirmed from the Australian death registers.
This shows that older brother James was certainly perceived as a brother of John (1810-1887) by his daughter Ellen who would have known James when she was a little girl in Peebles. However, I'm starting to wonder if this James Hamilton (c.1791-1870) was maybe a half brother, given that there seems to be a large gap between him and Jane (born c.1802). Another possibility is that he was actually a generation further up, a younger brother of John Hamilton, husband of Anna Scott.
This James married Marion Callendar in 1820, and the entry from Edinburgh parish is as follows:
"Jas Hamilton mason St. Cutht parish & Marion Callender New Greyfriars, d. of James Callender book seller Dalkeith".
Thus all siblings seem to have left the place of their birth and moved. James was in Peebles by 1821 at the time of the birth of his daughter Grace. Perhaps George followed his older brother, leading him to settle there by 1827 when he married Mary Small. (In the parish register of Peebles for 1827, "George Hamilton, labourer in Peebles and Mary Small in the parish of Yarrow gave in their names to be proclaimed in order to marriage which was done once in Sunday 7 Jan. and twice on the 14th following and no objections offered.") John was in Peebles by about 1832 when he married Joan Bryden (no entry found). There was some reason they all moved to Peebles, but it could have just been because James moved there in the early 1820s - why that happened we may never know.
Any thoughts let me know!
Jamie Reid
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To summarize, here's what I have for the Hamiltons
John Hamilton = Anna Scott
1. James (c.1791-1870) = Marion Callendar from Dalkeith
- lived in Peebles, occupation: mason, carter
- census indicates birth in Keir, Dumfries
- death certificate indicates father was James, mason; unclear whether this is true or just lack of knowledge by informant (James' son, James)
- possibility that James's mother was not Anna Scott or even that he was a brother of purported father
2. Jane (c.1802-1875) = William Ferguson (?)
- parentage confirmed from Australian death records
- census indicates birth in Keir, Dumfries
3. Margaret (c.1805-1889) =1. John Muir =2. Alexander Charters
- parentage confirmed from Australian death records
- census indicates birth in Keir, Dumfries
4. George (c.1806-1878) = Mary Small from Yarrow
- census indicates birth in Keir, Dumfries
- lived in Peebles, occupation: carrier
- moved to Perth county, Ontario, Canada in c.1854, became farmer
5. John (c.1810-1887) =1. Joan Bryden = 2. Jessie Annice/Noice
- census indicates birth in Keir, Dumfries
- lived in Peebles, occupation: carter
- parentage confirmed from 2nd marriage record
- moved to Perth county, Ontario, Canada in c.1854, became farmer
6. Ellen, possibly married a Stobie
-Jamie Reid
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Hi James
Sorry I missed your last 2 postings. I deduced given the age difference between James and George, John etc & the 1851+ census records citing him as born in Keir, Dumfriesshire he is more likely to have been a brother to John Snr (husband of Anna Scott), rather than a son. That would probably explain, apart from his older status, why he didn't emigrate with the boys to Canada. Have you got birth records for John & Anna? Also, I have census & death regs for Helen Hamilton & John Stobie. The 1851 Dalkeith census lists her birthplace as Dumfries. Not sure on the link to Keir with her. The presence of Jane (Hamilton) Ferguson's possible 2 year old daughter Annie with the Stobie family in the 1851 Dalkeith census is a possible link.
Re the Hamiltons leaving the parish of Keir, I suspect that John (snr) & Anna died in the 1820s and the family moved to Peebles to be with uncle James.
Although Margaret's 1st born (illegitimate) child was born in Dunscore, Dumfriesshire, a couple of miles west of Winsover (what I assume was a farm). I wasn't aware of Winsover cottages. I also noticed that it was also written as Windsover. Can you share some data on this please?
Once again, sorry I missed your postings. I look forward to reading your reply.
Best regards
Rob
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Thanks Rob. Yes, I agree, James is different from the others. Either he is an uncle, or perhaps he is a half brother, the son of John's first wife (if he had one) and the informant to his death certificate, James' son James, was incorrect in naming his grandfather as James (rather than John). This seems odd, particularly given that it is the paternal grandfather, but I think I've seen that in other families where the name is known with certainty retrospectively and the informants erred.
The only birth record I have is that for John Hamilton in 1810. (Are there any others? I could not find any for his siblings.) In the parish register of Keir, Dumfries-shire, "29 March a son of John Hamilton & Anna Scott in Winsover named John". The parish of Keir is in Nithsdale. Windsover is a short distance southwest of Auldgirth Bridge and can be seen here http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=284500&y=590500&z=120&sv=Keir&st=3&tl=Map+of+Keir+Hills,+Dumfries+and+Galloway+[Hill/Mountain]&searchp=ids.srf&mapp=map.srf or here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.155916,-3.7208389,3a,75y,346.66h,80.72t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sto1CrANubiowJiSnmcnr7w!2e0?hl=en .
I do wonder if there would be any records of that farm that would show a change of tenancy historically, which could help us track the Hamilton family. It is odd that they don't seem to appear in the parish records much.
Back to James' (b. 1791) parentage. We know that his first son was James and his second daughter was Elizabeth. On the other side of the family, brothers George and John (sons of John and Anna) both had first sons John, which we know to be the name of their paternal grandfather, and second daughters Anne, the name of their paternal grandmother. It doesn't prove anything, but if we say that James was using the same pattern, then he is the son of James (matching the death record) and Elizabeth. This would suggest he is an uncle rather than half-brother. We also know that James' wife, Marion Callender, was the daughter of James and Grace ("Grizel"). James and Marion's first daughter was Grace, indicating perhaps they followed the pattern.
I would love to find more information on this family further back but they are proving elusive!
Jamie Reid
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Hi James
Interesting, my navigation to Windsover/Winsover was via Dunscore and then Dunscore East Church and NNE of Merkland. Just a different way of getting there. I guess as Margaret Hamilton had her 1st child in Dunscore, I used that place as a focal point and radiated my search throughout Keir parish from there.
The second link seems to take me to the same area, but the buildings are called Allanton Mill & Cottage. I wonder, if this is where Winsover was, why the change in name or even if the original Windsover cottage/house/farm house was demolished. The landscape fits the early maps for Allanton Mill & Windsover/Winsover.
If it has been digitised, are you willing to send me a copy of your great, great grandfather’s autobiography? My email addrerss is *
Re your question on birth registrations for John Hamilton’s (1810) siblings, none were found. As I said, the evidence I found for Jane & Margaret Hamilton was on their death registrations and the marriage reg for Jane’s daughter Annie Ferguson to William Chartres in Bung Bong, Victoria, Australia. I can forward these documents to you if you wish (just need an email address).
Re “It doesn't prove anything, but if we say that James was using the same pattern, then he is the son of James (matching the death record) and Elizabeth. This would suggest he is an uncle rather than half-brother.” I agree with your conclusion and have been thinking along these lines for some time. I believe that it’s not unusual for a grandson (James) to not know the maiden name of his paternal grandmother, but her first name? Perhaps there was a rift between James (1791) and his father/mother and they weren’t spoken of. Did you find a birth reg for James (1791)?
Anyway, good to hear from you. Look forward to sharing more ideas with you.
Rob
Moderator Comment: Email address removed to prevent spam: Please use PM system to send messages.
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Is anyone aware of the exact plot in St Andrew's where the aforementioned James Hamilton (1791-1870) is buried, I've read transcription and want to visit, he is my 4th great grandfather, seemingly his ancestry is traceable through a Scots peerage site, which I checked years back...
In addition many of us related to James Hamilton have his parents on Ancestry as James Hamilton and Agnes Bethune (Beaton)...
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I have James Hamilton's death as 4 Jul 1870 at Southgate, Peebles. He was a Carter & his father James was a Mason. The death reg however lists his birthplace as Tinwald. John Hamilton's birthplace was listed as Keir, Dumfrieshsire. Tinwald is about 17 miles to the SE of Keir, Dumfriesshire. According to FamilySearch (http://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Tinwald,_Dumfriesshire,_Scotland_Genealogy) Tinwald is near Amisfield. Ironically, Amisfield was the seat of the Charteris family & still the location of the family castle.
The death reg also lists his wife as Marion Callander (deceased). This ties in with other evidence for the Hamilton family. However, as with most of the Hamilton data, there are many missing documents.
I hope this helps. I can flick you the death registration for James if you supply your email address on the PM section.
Cheers
Rob
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Hi Rob, thanks for info, I have copies of his and Marion Callander's death certificates, however I'm not aware of this death index that gives his place of birth so would be gratefull to see it, quite bizarre that not only do we not have his mother's name officially but also his 1st daughter's name is not given, which keeps us all in limbo! Stephen
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Hello,
You may already have the following information & I've missed it while reading through your posts. ScotlandsPeople has a marriage for John Stobie & Helen Hamilton, 22nd May 1840 at Lasswade, Midlothian & 23rd May 1840 at Peebles, Peebleshire. Probably the dates the banns/proclamation of marriage were read rather than marriage date. If John & Helen lived in different parishes, their banns would be read in both parishes.
Regards, Dod.
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Hi Stephen
Apologies, I have led you up the proverbial garden path. It was actually Tinnel. The 1861 Peebles census lists his birthplace as Tinnel, Dumfriesshire. I will send it to you via your email address.
Once again, apologies for the 'Furphy'.
Best regards
Rob
Perhaps too much Xmas cheer!
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Hi Dod
Thanks but I already have the marriage banns for Lasswade & Peebles for Helen & John. However, I haven't been able to find her birth registration. Have you found it?
Best regards
Rob
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Hi
I think I can update on Windsover..we live at Hillend farm..next to Allanton Mill and Winsover cottages, Auldgirth, Dumfries. Was part of the Blackwood Estate.
I'm doing some research in who lived here etc..one name that has come up is the name Fergusson 1835 and before that James Smith 1797. But last week while in the loft I found an old shoe box lid saying Miss Hamilton on.
Please feel free to get in touch ..David
I'm sure this is your missing link..I would be interested to find out more..
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Hi David,
Thank you. Here's what I have from my notes. The square brackets are mine.
In the parish register of Keir, in Nithsdale, Dumfries-shire, in 1810, "29 March a son of John Hamilton & Anna Scott in Winsover [Windsover] named John". The land of Windsover or Windsowr Hill, near Auldgirth, comprising about 60 acres, was in the Blackwood estate of William Copland, Esq. of Colliston.
James Reid
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Hi David
Apologies, I've only just found your postings. If you're still researching, I would like to ask you about the box lid, inscribed Miss Hamilton that you found in your loft. Were there any other documents, mementos, etc in the shoe box? We are still debating the history of the Hamiltons from Keir, Dumfriesshire.
Best regards
Rob
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Thanks for reply.. Sorry I haven't researched any further , still hoping to find out more about the history and peoplle who lived and worked on our farm.....All I found so far about miss hamilton was a lid from a shoe box with her writing on, no photo's etc. We live at Hillend Farm next to Allanton Mill, Windsover. thanks again David
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Hi David
In your initial reply, you also mentioned that the name Fergusson 1835 came up in your research of previous occupants of Windsover Farm. Are you able to elaborate on this. The reason I ask is that Jane Hamilton (born Keir in 1802 to John Hamilton & Anna Scott) married William Ferguson c1837 in Peebles & had a daughter Ann c1838 (also in Peebles). By the time of the 1851 census, Jane & Ann had relocated to Balmaghie, Kirkcudbrightshire where her sister Agnes had married Alexander Chartres. Jane & Ann emigrated to Victoria, Australia in April, 1870.
I have been unable to find anything about William Ferguson other than his marriage to Jane Hamilton (mentioned in the death certificate of Jane (Hamilton) Ferguson).
Anticipating your enlightening response.
Rob