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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: DavidJP on Sunday 02 February 14 19:32 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
I have spent years trying to find the death of my great grandmother Florence Kate Phillips (Nee' Hussey), but without success.
Until last week, it had been the case that the last record of her was my Grandfathers birth in 1923, but consulting the recently released Surrey Electoral Records on Ancestry, that has now changed. The electoral records showed that the family (including Florence Kate) lived at 137, Church Road, Mitcham until 1931 then from 1932 until 1939 at 22, Lavender Road, Mitcham. The registers for Mitcham stop in 1939.
So I now have her alive in 1939, but according to my late grandmother, her mother in law (Florence Kate was long gone by the time she met my grandfather in 1944/45. I had thought that this meant death, but I'm now beginning to wonder.
Are there any later Mitcham electoral records available to the public & if so where?
When did she die? Where? Am I missing something?
Many thanks in advance.
Kind regards
David (Currently stumped!)
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hi so when was she born?
ok found her
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a possible?? Florence kate Phillips died 1959 chatham kent vol 5b page 295
or does this address sound familiar Farley house Farley green surrey she died 5 nov 1961 a widow
probate 20 march 1962 to William james wickens assurance agent the effects of £1334.5s .7d
there are 2 others in Portsmouth
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Birth 1883 - is that the right one?
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Birth 1883 - is that the right one?
that's the one I found I think its correct
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Hi Doran54 & Groom,
Many thanks for your replies, very much appreciated.
Florence Kate Hussey was born 30th July 1883 in Mitcham.
The Farley House address is not a known address.
Her husband, my gt grandfather Robert Sydney Phillips died in 1955 in Surrey. I have yet to obtain this death cert. When finances allow, I shall.
Kind regards
David
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Hi,
Her husband, my gt grandfather Robert Sydney Phillips died in 1955 in Surrey. I have yet to obtain this death cert. When finances allow, I shall.
So three years later, I have finally been able to afford the above death cert. However, it leaves me no further forward!
Robert Sydney Phillips (1884-1955) aged 71 died at 22, Lavender Avenue, Mitcham on 2nd October 1955. However, it does not show any marital condition for Robert Sydney at all! The death was registered the following day by his middle son, my gt uncle George Ernest Phillips (1916-1979).
So, as noted in my OP they moved to the Lavender Ave address in 1932 and were there until Robert's death in 1955 or at least Robert was! So as I said above no further forward at all! I am completely stumped, I have no clue what happened to Florence Kate Phillips, if anything its getting more murky/mysterious the further/deeper I dig!
Any ideas, clues, suggestions etc would very gratefully received indeed!
Many thanks in advance.
Kind regards
David (Still Stumped!)
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Hello David
A couple of things occur to me as she was still alive and living in Mitcham in 1939 - could she have been killed during the bombing in the war, or did she leave London to avoid the blitz and die somewhere else. Even so, there should be a death record and I can't see one under Florence Kate!
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Hi Jan,
Many thanks for the suggestions, much appreciated.
The killed during the bombing in the war thought had occurred to me before, but I was never able to find anything as to whether she was or wasn't! Leaving London to avoid the blitz is certainly a possibility but as you say there should be a death record somewhere!
This is bugging the heck out of me!
My thanks again.
Kind regards
David
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Well, it doesn't look as if she died in Mitcham (Croydon registration district) as there is only one Florence and that is a Florence M who was born in 1873.
She was 56 in 1939, so probably didn't leave Robert, even if she did, I doubt if she remarried. I was hoping that Robert might have left a will, but I can't see one.
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I wonder - going back to your original post you say that according to your grandmother she had died by 1945, so if right that means a window of 6 years between Sept 1939 and 1945.
There is this death in 1944 - the right age
Deaths Dec 1944
Phillips Florence K 61 Pontypridd 11a 431
Miles from Mitcham, but could she (and perhaps Robert) have left London during the war, any idea if their house was damaged during the bombing? I know (not from experience!!) that Mitcham was bombed quite heavily due to its proximity to Croydon Airport.
Added: As far as I can see there is no Florence Phillips born 1883 in Wales in 1939.
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Hi Jan,
Thanks for checking those, I do recall checking to see whether Robert left a will or not & was pretty sure that he hadn't, never hurts to double check though!
The only other thing that I can think of that may or may not have happened is that Florence could perhaps have ended up in an institution/asylum or whatever they were calling them at that time! I wouldn't know where or how to look into that possibility anyway!
Apart from that I really cannot think of anything else! Other than maybe checking the local newspapers to see if anything shows up but that would be a long shot and a half to say the least!
I think possibly I need to check post war electoral rolls to see who was living with Robert between 1946 & 1955 & when & indeed if Florence drops off the radar as it were!
My thanks again.
Kind regards
David
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Did you see my last post, or did we cross?
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Hi Jan,
The 1944 death in Pontypridd that you've found I seem to recall coming across before & I'm sure I found that that was a woman born and bred in the same area of Wales if I remember correctly. I don't have those notes to hand at the moment though.
I may have to double check it just to be sure though!
My thanks again.
Kind regards
David
Added - I think our last posts crossed!
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Hi Jan,
any idea if their house was damaged during the bombing? I know (not from experience!!) that Mitcham was bombed quite heavily due to its proximity to Croydon Airport.
Well, I know that the house still stands, having looked at it using Google maps I think it is, viewing the street scene. I did look into the possibility of house damage & although noting a number of bombs having been dropped in the Mitcham area, there appeared to be nothing as regards Lavender Ave or roads close by as far as I recall.
Thanks again.
Kind regards
David
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It's ridiculous isn't it - Florence isn't that common a name and combined with Kate, or even K, is even less so. She has to be dead by now! I would have thought if she'd left Robert, something would have been hinted at at some point by someone in the family.
Going back to the Welsh one, that is the only time in all the records I've looked at, that the initial K is used, all the rest in censuses are plain Florence. The only Florence K Phillips I can see is in Swansea in 1891 and 1901 and was born 1887 and is single in the censuses.
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Hi Jan,
It is ridiculous, your quite right. Its made even more difficult in that although my grandparents married in 1945, they divorced in 1949/50 or thereabouts. Grandfather emigrated to Bermuda of all places in 1956, the year after his father's (Robert Sydney) death. Thereby contact with the Phillips family was lost until the very early eighties, when contact with a couple of the surviving children (a great aunt & a great uncle) was briefly reestablished.
All 4 of Robert & Florence's children are now all dead. My late mother was the only child of my grandparents marriage & with my grandmother also now gone, there is nobody left to ask.
As far as I can remember when contact was briefly reestablished my great aunt did give some info re the Phillips family to my mother over the phone but that was only concerning my mothers aunt & uncles (Robert & Florence's children) nothing about Robert & Florence themselves.
My thanks again.
Kind regards
David
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Hi,
This has got me wondering about a couple of things.
Does the government keep a record of people who are reported missing? If so, for how long?
When an unidentified body is found what kind of record is kept of the death?
Makes me think there may be more than a few people for whom there is no death record.
Jann
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I wonder as well if this is complicated as it looks (if David's grandmother is right) as if Florence died between 1939 and 1944 i.e. during WW2. I still have a feeling about the Pontypridd one - age and name fit exactly. If I were David, (when finances allow) I'd send for that certificate just to eliminate her.
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Hi Jann & Jan,
Many thanks for replies, much appreciated.
Jann, thanks for that suggestion, certainly worth considering!
Jan, I think that you're right re purchasing the Pontypridd death cert, I shall purchase it when finances allow.
My thanks again.
Kind regards
David
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The Pontypridd register office are brilliant, very helpful. If you email them (I'll check the address now) and give them the quarter you've found (they don't use the same reference numbers as GRO), plus some details such as her husband and last known address, they will look at the record for you.
If nothing matches they will tell you. Similarly they will say that address is close, or something matches but not something else and you can then decide if it's worth the risk. I do usually promise to buy the cert if it matches the info supplied though.
Due to boundary changes they may not find the entry, but again will tell you and suggest you try neighbouring offices.
email address added: registrar*AT*rhondda-cynon-taff.gov.uk [replace *AT* with @]
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Hi Deirdre784,
Many thanks for that, much appreciated, I will certainly look to email them.
Thanks again.
Kind regards
David
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That would save buying if it definitely isn't her eg the one who died wasn't married. You have her exact date of birth don't you, so that will help? Don't give her London address though as the chances are that won't be on there if she was living in Wales at the time.
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Robert Sydney Phillips (1884-1955) aged 71 died at 22, Lavender Avenue, Mitcham on 2nd October 1955.
There is a burial indexed on deceased online, Borough of Merton, 6 October 1955, of Robert Phillips. No Sydney, but yours is the only Robert Phillips death in Surrey that quarter. And the website says that for Merton generally only the first forename is available when doing a search, but that the full name will be on the register scan.
Unfortunately they no longer give us the name of the cemetery in the free index. The other free info on there is that there is one other person in the grave with Robert.
So, groom's death in Pontypridd in Dec qtr 1944, of Florence Kate Phillips (full name in new death index on GRO website).
On deceased online there is a burial indexed of Florence Phillips, 6 October 1944, Merton. Again, one other person in the grave.
It is a shortish timescale here perhaps, and, of course, the question of why was her death in Pontypridd? But the Robert Phillips burial was four days after your man's death, and I don't think the other Florence Phillips deaths in either the Sep/Dec quarters 1944 look particularly likely candidates for that Mitcham burial.
John
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So, groom's death in Pontypridd in Dec qtr 1944, of Florence Kate Phillips (full name in new death index on GRO website).
On deceased online there is a burial indexed of Florence Phillips, 6 October 1944, Merton. Again, one other person in the grave.
It is a shortish timescale here perhaps, and, of course, the question of why was her death in Pontypridd?
That looks good, John - surely too much of a coincidence for it not to be her?
Perhaps they were in Wales on holiday! However, my theory is that they left London to get away from the bombing - between January 1944 and May 1944 there was what was called The Baby Blitz, when the Luftwaffe bombed Southern England. I know my Grandmother left South London at that time and went to stay with relatives in Chester.
£1.50 to check that David - well worth it!
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If finances are tight it might be cheaper to look at the Florence Phillips burial in Merton in 1944,the register scan.
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Hi John & Jan,
Many thanks indeed for your replies, very much appreciated.
John, many thanks for that, I will definitely check that out!
Jan, looks like that Pontypridd death could be her after all, definitely going to get it now!
I will post results of one or both of the above when I get them!
My thanks to you all again for your help and assistance, it is very much appreciated indeed!
Kind regards
David
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Hi g eli,
Just missed your post as we crossed!
Thanks for the suggestion, a very good idea!
My thanks again.
Kind regards
David
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My suggestion is to look at the details from Deceased Online first as that is cheaper than getting the certificate, with any luck you will find her in the same grave as Robert!
I forget about using that site, I've just found my great grandfather's grave, so am going to buy credits to find out who the other 3 are who are buried with him. ;D
ADDED: Brilliant - my great grandfather is buried with both his parents and a brother. Thanks John!
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Hi David,
I have been following this thread and have had "a feeling in my water" as they say about the Pontypridd death for Florence ever since Jan posted it. I would certainly download the details from Deceased Online that John found as it is far cheaper than a cert - and you get an answer instantly :D
Jan, great news about finding your great grandfather's grave. I haven't searched Deceased Online for a while so I'm off for a mooch later.
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Hi all,
Update!
I went ahead and registered & paid for some vouchers and got the details as I couldn't wait, I just had to know! ;D
The result is that both Robert & Florence are buried in the same grave in London Road Cemetery, Mitcham (just around the corner from Lavender Avenue!)
But the burial register entry shows the following:
Name: Florence Kate Phillips
Age: 61
Date of Death: Oct 2nd 1944
Place where death occurred: Hospital Anne(s), Mountain Ash, Wales.
Place from where body was brought: 22 Lavender Avenue, Mitcham.
Result!!
I cannot thank you all enough, this one has bugged me for years, although I still have to work out why exactly they were in Wales, although I think that Jan's theory could well be right.
I confess I felt slightly emotional as I read the burial register entry!
My thanks to you all again, finally solving this one means a lot to me.
Kind regards
David
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That is really good David - I was sure that Wales death was her! It's lovely to be able to solve that one.
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Hi Jool,
Thanks for that, have done just that & downloaded the burial entry, as posted above.
Thanks again.
Kind regards
David
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Hi Jan,
That is really good David - I was sure that Wales death was her! It's lovely to be able to solve that one.
You're not wrong, as I alluded to before its bugged me for years, somewhere between 15 & 20 years to be precise! It does feel good to finally break this particular brick wall! ;D
Kind regards
David
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David, I'm so pleased to hear you have finally got your answer, and I can understand you feeling a little emotional about it.
Great work Jan and John ;D
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Just to add that if and when you do get the death certificate, it costs £10 from Pontypridd registration office (if indeed it is there if the death was in Mountain Ash), plus you have to post them a cheque. And it's a typed version, not an image of the register. Cheaper from the GRO.
Saying that, i do buy from the local offices if they've helped me (as many have) find an elusive death.
Good luck 😀
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David, I'm so pleased to hear you have finally got your answer, and I can understand you feeling a little emotional about it.
Great work Jan and John ;D
Thanks Jool. I knew it was her - I had a strong feeling. Perhaps Florence decided it was time that she was found. ;D ;D
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Hi all,
Having let the dust settle and all that, have been having a think & I reckon I've tumbled to why they were in Wales.
Mountain Ash where Florence Kate died is in Glamorganshire. Robert & Florence's son (My Grandfather) John Phillips was by this time an instructor in the RAF and was being posted to various places around the UK & in October 1944 he was at RAF St Athan, which is also in Glamorganshire! They are a little distance apart, Mountain Ash being a little bit north of St Athan.
So perhaps they were visiting/meeting up with my grandfather, perhaps combining it with a holiday at the same time? This I feel fits the known facts.
My thanks again for all assistance.
Kind regards
David
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The death certificate if/when you send for it may give a few more clues.
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An old thread now revived, great work Groom & others.
Enjoyed reading through the thread i.e. was curious & found this but hope it's not too upsetting for David!
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jle/
Annie
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That's interesting Annie, what a pity that they have let it get like that, even more of a pity that people have thought it necessary to scrawl graffiti everywhere.
I was just thinking, if she died there on the 2nd October, and was buried in Mitcham on the 6th, it didn't take long for them to return her body did it? Can't have been easy to arrange given it was war time.
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Hi Jan & Annie,
Jan, yep i agree that there may be some clues on the death cert, which I intend to order asap!
Annie, thanks for the link, I had already looked about to see what I could find out about the hospital & was aware that it had closed (about 2011 I think?) & am not at all surprised to see the condition of it now. I don't understand why people vandalise & spray graffiti everywhere, makes no sense to me at all!
Just as a side note, Florence & Robert both died on the 2nd Oct & were both buried on the 6th Oct, the difference being that the burials were 11 years apart! Spooky or what, or just coincidence!
Thanks again.
Kind regards
David
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Hi all,
Just a quick update to say that I have today ordered my gt grandmother Florence Kate Phillips death cert. It is due to be dispatched next Monday (3rd April). I will update further when I receive the certificate, hopefully next week!
Kind regards
David
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Hi,
I have today received my gt grandmother Florence Kate Phillips death cert.
It gives the following details:
Place where death occurred: Hospital Anne(s), Mountain Ash, Wales.
The place where she died was actually Hospital Annex, Mountain Ash, Wales.
Cause of death given as:
a.) Exhaustion
b.) Carcinoma of Breast (Breast Cancer)
The death was registered the day that she died (2nd Oct 1944) by my gt grandfather Robert Sydney Phillips. The home address in Mitcham, Surrey matches as well.
When reading the death cert, I was struck by the similarities that my grandfather & I share, (having lost my own late mother to breast cancer 16 years ago.) My gt grandmother and my mother weren't to dissimilar in age (61 and 55 respectively) & my grandfather & I both approaching birthdays when our mothers passed.
I cannot help but wonder if realising that maybe she didn't have long that she wanted to see her youngest child (my grandfather) one last time before she passed away. My grandfather having just been posted to Glamorganshire, South Wales himself (same county in which Mountain Ash is as well). Whether they did manage to see each other or not I guess I'll never know. This scenario is the only one as far as I can see that fits the facts.
My thanks to all that helped with this, your help is very much appreciated indeed. A 15 to 20 year mystery finally resolved!!
Kind regards
David
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I'm so glad that we solved that mystery and that my gut instinct told me that was her. You wouldn't really have expected to find her in Wales would you?
Sounds as if she had been suffering for some time if exhaustion was on the certificate, however, as the home address was given as Mitcham, they probably weren't living in Wales or I would have thought that address would have been on the certificate. So you could well be right that they were visiting their son, or perhaps had just gone there for a break to get away from London and the bombing.
Lovely to have been able to help solve that mystery.