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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: VillageDuckpond on Wednesday 05 February 14 17:06 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to trace descendants of James and Dorothy GRAVES (nee LASHLEY). James was a Gunner in the Royal Artillery and stationed in the British West Indies until about 1870. To my knowledge they had 8 children - all born in the British West Indies. Can anyone help me please?
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Hello,
you don't give any names so, to help people:
1871 988/15/25
Sheerness Barracks
James Graves 40 yrs Gunner R A b Walmer Kent
Dorothy Graves 29 yrs b Barbados
Alfred Graves 14 yrs
James Graves 11 yrs
Louis Graves 10 yrs
Herbert Graves 8 yrs b Trinidad
Saban (Laban?) Graves 6 yrs
Maria Graves 4 yrs
William A Graves 2 yrs
children born Barbados except Herbert
Do you have the family post 1871? What do you know of them - marriage etc?
regards
heywood
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If heywood has the right James Graves, then he appears to have been baptised at St Mary's Church, Walmer on 12 April 1829, son of Mary Graves, a single woman. The fact that he was baptised there does not necessarily mean he was born there and he should have been born in 1831 if the age was recorded right in the census (which it often wasn't).
If this is the right Mary, The only Mary Graves baptised anywhere near that time was at St Leonard's in Deal (the adjoining town) on 31 Jan 1813 to John & Mary Graves. He was a Mariner of Sandy Lane in Deal.
This is not conclusive but may be of some help.
Kind regards
AJ
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AJ100, many thanks for your reply.
I was in the process of writing a long missive in reply to heywood when I was alerted that there was another reply to my original question and now cannot find it! Typical!
Last year I printed off several pages from www.gravesfa.org with 3 generations of information, a lot of blank spaces and mention of the 1871, 1881 and 1891 censuses but I am now trying to make head or tail of it all.
My adoptive mother was the daughter of Alfred Graves by his second marriage but no mention was ever made of this big family so as you can imagine it has all been quite a voyage of discovery!
Any pointers in the right direction would certainly be greatly appreciated .
PS Many thanks for the information about James GRAVES (Snr) ...fascinating
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Hello VillageDuckpond
Glad the information was of use. It's fascinating and very frustraying tracing families back through the years, not helped by the lack of information and the mis-transcibing of information.
I am in the middle of a vast project involving just that and I have learnt never to trust what is on the internet. The info is put on there in all good faith but errors occur and the original source is often wrong. I rely solely on Parish Records, which themselves are often incorrect but are the nearest thing to accuracy that exists, prior to the introduction of Birth Certificates.
If you know where your ancestors were born or baptised, then may I suggest doing exactly what you have done here - ask for someone in that town to look at the records and find the answer.
If you think the John & Mary Graves I mentioned might be your ancestors, then I have found their marriage. At St Leonard's Church, Deal 15 July 1812 John GRAVES married Mary WOOD. Witnesses were Henrietta SMITH & James GRAVES.
Regards
AJ
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Hello again AJ100, that was a very quick reply and thank you again.
Oh dear ... yet another James GRAVES as a witness this time at John and Mary's marriage in 1812! I love doing family history but do wish they wouldn't keep repeating the christian names - it makes life so complicated!
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Am I right then that you have the info from censuses and now are looking at children and their marriages and children etc - a lot of research. :)
Here is 1881 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQ4Y-X27 which shows Eugenia born 1872 so maybe they returned after 1871 census to the West Indies.
AJ100 has given you some good info there going back and I don't want to repeat what you already have so won't put any info from later censuses yet.
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Hello VillageDuckpond
Actually it helps repeating Christian names as you can sometimes link families. There were only two Graves families in Deal at the time and as James was witness to John's wedding, he was very likely a relative, possibly brother as he was having children at the same time as mary was born.
Neither John or James were born in Deal but I have details of James children if you get that far
Good Luck
AJ
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There is a Marriage Reg, for a Mary GRAVES, Dec 1837, Eastry, 5 215
One the possible Male Spouses is missing.
John TOWN Marriage Reg, Dec 1837, Eastry, 5 216
No Female Spouses are shown
1851 Census
Paradise,
Sandwich, Kent
HO107/1631/91/15
John TOWN, age 9, Head, Mar, Sexton, born not known
Mary Town, 45, Wife, Mar, born Mongcham
James GRAVES, 22, Son, Unm, Ag Lab, born Deal
William Town, 18, Son, Unm, Ag Lab
George Town, 16, Son, Unm, Ag Lab
Edward Town, 8, Son, Scholar
Alfred Town, 6, Son, Scholar
Robert Town, 2, Son
Town Boys all born Sandwich
1861 Census Mary Town is born c 1811 Mongeham and John Town born c 1801 Sandwick! (Sandwich)
Alfred/Robert are still there, Johns Occp is now a Thatcher.
James Graves is not with them.
1871 Mary Town is born c 1807 Mongsham, John and Son Robert are with her.
1881 John Town is Widowed born c 1799 Eastry, Robert is with him.
Death Reg;
Mary TOWN, June 1876, Eastry, 2a 495, age 69 (Birth c 1807)
Trish :)
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1841 looks like James Graves is under Town;
1841 Census
Jacobs Church Yard
(Next to Paradise Garden)
St Mary, Sandwich, Kent
HO107/494/15/St Mary
John TOWN, 40, Sexton
Mary, 30
Sophia, 15
JAMES, 12**
John, 11
William, 9
George, 7
Looks like John was Widowed when marrying Mary Graves;
SOPHIA BENT Town Baptised 13 June 1824 St Mary's, Sandwich, Kent
Parents JOHN/ELIZABETH
JOHN JAMES, 30 July 1826 (probably died)
JOHN, 03 Jan 1830
ELIZABETH, 13 May 1831
WILLIAM, 25 Nov 1832
GEORGE, 21 Dec 1834
(Familysearch.Org)
Trish :)
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Oh dear another illeg. birth which can make researching further back harder;
MARY Graves, Christened 31 May 1807, Great Mongeham, Kent
Mother ELIZABETH Graves
(Familysearch.Org)
Another possible Familysearch.Org;
EIZABETH Graves Christened 30 Oct 1785 , Great Mongeham to THOMAS/ELIZABETH
Siblings;
WILLIAM, 04 July 1784
MARY, 06 Jan 1788
JAMES, 28 Feb 1790
ANNE, 08 May 1791
SARAH, 20 Oct 1792
ABIGAIL ALICE, 01 May 1796
AFFERY (Female), 06 May 1798
James GRAVES Married Elizabeth PERKINS, 4 January 1784, Great Mongeham, Kent
Familysearch also has the Marriage as;
24 January 1784, Northbourne, Kent
Not sure what that means, Banns and then actual Marriage date I presume.
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I am trying to trace descendants of James and Dorothy GRAVES (nee LASHLEY). James was a Gunner in the Royal Artillery and stationed in the British West Indies until about 1870. To my knowledge they had 8 children - all born in the British West Indies. Can anyone help me please?
Children of James Graves & Dorothy Ann Lashley all born Barbados.
7 in total.
Alfred, 1857, James 1859, Herbert 1862, Laban 1865 (this is the only record on Family Search)
Maria 1867, William Adolphus 1869, Eugenie 1872.
Cant see a marriage record for James & Dorothy Ann Lashley in Barbados.
James died in 1924 Cambridge UK. Dorothy died in 1911. :)
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Marriage, Northbourne
1784 24th Jan By Banns
James GRAVES. B, Great Mongeham
Elisabeth PERKINS. S, otp.
Witnesses: Richard SOMES?, Sarah KEMP
Only one other GRAVES marriage in Northbourne, in case it's useful:
1791 12th Oct By Banns
Peter GRAVES. B, Lit Mongeham
Mary SLAUGHTER. S, otp
Witnesses: Vincent LADE, Richard PARKER
Betty
James GRAVES Married Elizabeth PERKINS, 4 January 1784, Great Mongeham, Kent
Familysearch also has the Marriage as;
24 January 1784, Northbourne, Kent
Not sure what that means, Banns and then actual Marriage date I presume.
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Have you had a chance to look over this yet VillageDuckPond?
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Sincere apologies for not getting back to all who have contacted me re the above James GRAVES .... to be absolutely honest I feel overwhelmed with all the information and need time to sit down quietly to get to grips with it. So please don't think I am not grateful I certainly am ....just pretty busy at the moment ....
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Fair enough as we say here in Oz.
When you have time to take it all in feel free to ask more questions as we are all more than willing to help.
Trish :)
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James Graves of Walmer joined the army on Jan 31, 1853@ Canterbury, Kent; served for a total of 21 years and 304 days according to military records (Chelsea pension records) and was stationed in the West Indies for nearly nineteen of them. He was discharged on Nov 30, 1874 having never received a single promotion during his lengthy service. Arthur, the eldest of his eight issues, was born on Nov 11, 1856 in Barbados and dipped there on Mar 14, 1857 according to military records (National Archives); my great great grandfather, Laban Graves, was born on June 9, 1864 on the same island and dipped there too on Sept 17, 1864.
After leaving the army James Graves moved to Portsea, Hants where he according to the 1891 and 1901 Census returns worked as either a "general labourer" or a "labourer in shipyard". His death certificate, of which I have a copy, shows he passed away whilst at work (at the docks) on Jan 9, 1911 of "heart failure" and "old age". My 82-year-old ancestor was buried five days later @ the Royal Victoria Hospital, nr. Southampton.
I haven't found any evidence he actually ever wed Dorothy Lashley. I have carefully studied the relevant military records during his time in the West Indies, but to no avail. And as British regimental records were scrupulously kept even then, especially on all things matrimonial, I can only conclude they never were legally man and wife.
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I am fascinated to learn that your ancestor James GRAVES of Walmer is buried at the Victoria Hospital near Southampton, England. I have him as being buried in Cambridge, England. I wonder if we are talking about the same one?
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Hello again,
my mistake I did mean Alfred and not Albert. As regards the Australian lady I haven't been in contact with her; all the research so far has been pretty much a solo venture. Mixed in with a little bit of oral history from my 100-year-old grandmother, not that she has been a great help especially with dates. She is usually off by around fifteen years.
If I can help you in any way please just ask. I have solid info on: James himself and complete info on five of his eight issues. My knowledge on Louis, Maria, and Eugenia are more sketchy unfortunately. For example, regarding their third son Louis my suspicions are he died in the West Indies. I can't prove that however the manner in which he just seemed to have disappeared without a trace after the 1871 Census, coupled with the insalubrious nature of the West Indies, leads me to believe he could have perished over there. Certainly the enumerator didn't miss any of his siblings from the following census!
One final point your grandfather, Alfred (not Albert!) died in 1938; he was the first to arrive and the last to leave.
I Look forward to hearing from you soon,
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Hello again Bariloche, first of all I don't understand the term 'dipped' in your message?
May I suggest you have a look at www.gravesfa.org/gen005.htm? There are quite a few mistakes but at the beginning I found it useful. For example, it gives you a guide to what happened to Maria and Eugenia and you will see that there were two sons after James (b c 1860) who I presume both died.
From the information I have I am trying to work out which line of the family your wonderful grandmother comes from. You can always send me a private message if you don't want to make it public.
The Australian lady I have sadly lost touch with is related to Ann Christine Taylor GRAVES (daughter of Herbert Laban GRAVES b 29 December 1899) who emigrated to Australia. Do you know this side of the family?
Shall look forward to hearing from you perhaps tomorrow.
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hi again,
dipped means baptised.
James Graves (junior) was born on May 3, 1858 in Jamaica and dipped on Nov 17, 1860 in Barbados.
He died on May 19, 1922 (aged 64) @ home: 59 Wood St, Woolwich, London 11 room private house). Buried on May 22, 1922 @ Charlton Cemetery. He married Annie Beatrice Moore on June 26, 1887 @ St George, Bloomsbury, London. He sired eight issues from the spuriously born Mabel Lucy (1885-1915) to Beatrice Irene (1900-86). Of all his eight only two passed their thirtieth birthdays (Beatrice Irene and Amelia Louise) and four of them didn't even survive beyond infancy including all three of his sons. (I do find this family tree habit quite emotionally draining sometimes!)
By profession he was an overseer (supervisor) of a laboratory @ Royal Arsenal. Royal Arsenal @ Woolwich was a huge company that specialised in the development and production of ordnance and munitions. With him being an overseer in the lab perhaps he was involved in development side of the business. Of course his namesake father served as a gunner with the RA. And it is not unreasonable to imagine his son's interest in this field were formed during those times.
He left £172 12s to his widow (not really a princely sum for the times) and the 11-room private house (of which I know little about).
I hope this is of some help. It is only an abridged version of my findings but at least gets you started on James jnr.
Tomorrow I will cover William Adolphus and his sixteen children.
kind regards
D
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Hello.
Sorry to revive a dead post, but I've stumbled across this on Google whilst researching into James Graves and his ancestors. I'm a descendant of him down William Adolphus and would love to get some extra information from you. I spoke to the Australians ladys daughter back in 2021 briefly but stopped looking into my tree and just decided to give it another go now!
It looks like i'm not able to message you directly. So if you could message me that would be fantastic.