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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: NNR on Thursday 06 February 14 11:52 GMT (UK)
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Dear all,
I've written up the life story of my Great Great Grandfather's youngest brother. This was largely done to see if any descendents could be traced who might have a photograph of the man. This didn't succeed, but I did find information of two pubs he'd run - the Princess Royal on Rotcher Road (1880s-1890s) and the Druid's Hotel (1890s-1902). I was wondering if any photos of those pubs in that era exist?
Anyway, here's the life story. Hoping someone stumbles across it who can help provide some more detail/links!
James Bray (1842 - 1902) John and Rachel Bray’s youngest son was only a year old when his father died and ended up living with three of his older siblings rather than with his mother. When he was eight he was already working as a woollen billy piecer. Eventually he moved in with his mother and stepfather and in 1861, by the age of 18 was working as a woollen warper.
Early the next year, James married Ann Rothery from Underbank, who was three years his junior. According to the 1841 census, the couple had a child in 1863 (or 1870 - see below) named Clara.
In 1871, James – now a woollen weaver – was living at Underbank with his 25 year old wife Ann and their eight year (or month) old daughter, Clara.
Sadly, in early 1874, Ann died aged 27.
In 1881, James is still at Underbank and is now a 37 year old weaver. He has, apparently, remarried (although no such marriage appears to be recorded in the Huddersfield area) and his wife is called Sarah. She is 44 years old. A daughter, Clara, is listed, but her age is given as ten. Perhaps the 1871 Clara had been eight months old, rather than eight years?
During the 1880s, James has undergone a career change and, by 1891, is working as a beer seller at the Princess Royal beerhouse at the bottom end of Rotcher Road opposite Victoria Square. Clara, now apparently 21 is working as a mill hand and James, 47 and Sarah, 51 continue to live with her.
The next Spring, Clara married Thomas Barden.
By 1901, James and Sarah have moved to 30 Station Road and are now running the Druid’s Hotel, which is next to Druid’s Hall at number 28. Their grandson by Clara, Jim Barden, seven years old, is also living with them.
James died in Spring 1902 aged 59.
Druid’s Hall and Druid’s Hotel continue to be of interest, however. In 1804, James Harrop, a drysalter of Holmfirth left his estate to his four sisters; Mary Hincliff, Anne Hammerton, Sarah Dransfield and Jane Wordsworth. Jane was the wife of John, a surgeon and apothecary and her fold of land was an area of 1000 square yards and closes called Haigh Croft and Plumpton. Following her husband’s death, she sold the land to Jonathan Thorpe and Joseph Crawshaw. Joseph sold his half to Jonathan’s wife Mary and in May 1846, the Thorpes sold the land to Joseph Heeley, Job Dearnley, Jonathan Hincliffe and 18 members of the Ancient Order of the Druids for £190.
At the turn of the century the Druid's movement along with those of other Friendly Societies was falling into decline and so at a meeting held on the 17th February 1906 at which over seventy members were present, it was proposed and accepted that the Druid's Hall and buildings should be sold by public auction.
The auction of the property, took place on Thursday the 29th March 1906 and was advertised as a fully-licensed public house known as the Druid's Hotel, together with brew-house, two dwelling houses, stable, carriage house, outbuildings, yards and vacant ground and was sold in equal shares to John Edward Heap of Honley, solicitor and Daniel Stockwell, innkeeper of Upperbridge, Holmfirth, for the sum of £1150.00, the land at this time continued to be leased from the Lord of the Manor.
Daniel Stockwell, who became the innkeeper died on the 7th June 1908 and just prior to his death the hotel, stabling, and yard, were leased to William Whittaker & Co Ltd. Brewers of Bradford. The lease was signed on the 7th August 1907, however there appears to be no record of this being revoked and there is no mention of the lease when the Druid's Hotel was next sold. At the time of the sale one of the cottages or dwelling houses, was occupied by Tom Barden, the son-in-law of James Bray.
The Druid's Hotel as it was known in 1906 contained: on the ground floor - an entrance passage, commercial room, snug, tap room, filling bar, kitchen, arched ale cellar and wine and keeping cellars. On the first floor - a music room, storeroom and three bedrooms. On the second floor - a lofty well lighted hall with permanent platform, two anti-rooms, lavatory, independent stone staircase with entrance from the main road and communicating with the hotel and also an additional entrance from the back road. There were also two dwelling houses, a brew-house, a fourstalled stable with hay-loft, out buildings, yards and some vacant ground, however by this time the area covered by the hotel complex had been reduced in size to about 850 square yards or thereabouts.
The Hall was bought by the Holme Valley Lodge Masons in 1917 and remains their property to this day.
So, the descendants of James are his daughter, Clara (b. 1863 or 1870) and her son, Jim Barden (b. Spring 1894). Jim seems almost certain to be the Jim Barden who dies in late 1959 in Spen Valley aged 65. There are two marriages that could both be his:
Sep 1915 to Sarah A. Hirst
Dec 1934 to Selina Dickinson
Neither marriage appears to yield any children.
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There is a baptism of a Clara Bray 30 Oct 1870 born 20 Jun 1870 daughter of James weaver & Ann of Underbank at Holy Trinity, Holmfirth. So it look like your theory of her being 8 months rather than 8 years in 1971 could be correct. What age does she give on her marriage to Thomas Barden in 1892?
ADDED: I see she states her age as 21. I don't think, as she had lived in the area all her life & presumably knew the vicar, she could get away with that if she was actually 29.
Do you have present day photographs of the pub premises?
Josey
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Josey,
Thanks for that info - very useful! I don't have a marriage cert. for her wedding to Thomas, so don't know her age then.
Do you have present day photographs of the pubs?
The Druid's Hall (that bought up the Druid's Hotel land) sits here:
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=masonic,+holmfirth&hl=en&ll=53.57169,-1.784077&spn=0.002867,0.007242&sll=53.570161,-1.784313&sspn=0.005734,0.014484&t=m&hq=masonic,&hnear=Holmfirth,+West+Yorkshire,+United+Kingdom&z=17&layer=c&cbll=53.571629,-1.784139&panoid=LTMwsvJs-jb45GFHg11kqA&cbp=12,121.14,,0,-13.07
As for the Princess Royal, it states it was 'at the end of Rotcher Road'. The only buildings still at the end of Rotcher Road are here:
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=rotcher+road&ll=53.569625,-1.786909&spn=0.005683,0.01457&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&hnear=Rotcher+Rd&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.569656,-1.786768&panoid=MfEN4Lc8E4YEhqtyQk2fpA&cbp=12,184.24,,0,0.4
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If you pm me your email address, I will send you images of the baptism & marriage parish entries.
Have you tried the West Yorkshire Archive Service http://www.catalogue.wyjs.org.uk/, the Huddersfield Local History Library http://www.kirklees.gov.uk/events/venuedetails.asp?vID=570 or the Huddersfield Family History Society http://www.hdfhs.org.uk/?
I have a book of archive photographs of the Holme Valley compiled by Peter & Iris Bullock in 1995. If you don't have this I will look through for you.
Josey
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hi
all I can find in pics is this site which has 2 small magic lantern slides for druids hotel not a lot of detail I,m afraid .
www.slides.uni-trier.de/location/index.php?id=1504314
regards
trevor
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Just found some other kids for Clara and Thomas:
After having Jim in January 1894 (baptised March at Holy Trinity), the couple had another son, Walter, in March 1895. Walter, however, was not baptised ‘til December 1903! John is born in October 1900 and baptised in December 1903. He too appears in Oakworth in 1901. Randall followed next, in November 1903 (and baptised just a month later!) Next followed Percy Jan/Mar 1906 and Maggie (Oct/Dec 1908).
Josey, have PM'ed you, but would love it if you could look through that book! Will check out the two links, too.
Trevor - thanks for the link, but can't make it work no matter how many bits I lop off the end of it! The http://www.slides.uni.trier.de/ isn't registered yet according to my browser...?
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Trevor - Googling has led me there! Whew!
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hi
sorry my fault misread web address :-[
trevor
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Well, I think they're pretty damn good finds! Thank you. The second slide:
http://www.slides.uni-trier.de/slide/index.php?id=5016091
Has my ancestor's name above the door!!
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Comparing the photos with the street map link I see that not only did James' pub survive, but it is incorporated into the main (cental) part of the Masonic Hall! They've even still kept the lantern above the door!
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Just had a quick glance at the slides. My family are Holmfirthers (and Underbankers) going back hundreds of years, so many would have been around the village in the heyday of Bamforths. I wonder if any are pictured on the slides. Sadly, I've no way of knowing.
Regarding the pub at the bottom of Rotcher- could it have been what is now called the Nook?
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Isn't that pub's official name The Rose & Crown? I should think it's address is Towngate. I think the Princess Royal is more likely to be Rotcher cafe now.
Josey [a modern incomer sorry comer-in Holmfirther]
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When I was child, 1950's, the Rotcher Cafe was a painter&decorators shop, Hogleys ( Mr & Mrs Hogley were also teachers at Holmfirth Methodist Sunday School).
I'll ask my mum, born late 1920's at nearby New Fold, if she knows where the Princess Mary pub was.
I have gained the impression that there were a huge number of beerhouses, pubs, inns in the locality in the 1800's/ earlt 20thC. Often set up as a bit of a sideline in folks' houses and positioned to provide refreshment to workers who often had to walk several miles to and from the textile mills in the valleys.Hence the habit that wives had of waiting at the mill gates on payday to collect housekeeping money from their menfolk...
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PS- the small separate building on the left of the photo of the bottom of Rotcher, now evidently a Cobblers, used to be a tripe shop - as kids we would never go anywhere near it, with its array of entrails, stomach-linings and dubious-looking tubes!
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Have had a look at the 1881 & 1891 census- you have James at the Princess Royal Beerhouse followed by 3 dwellings at Rotcher, then it goes down onto Hollowgate.
On the previous page there is the Shoulder of Mutton and the the Ring o' Bells(landlord 1881 John Bray) Ribbleden - any pub or building which could have been the Nook/Rose&Crown seems absent.
The Shoulder is still there today. Nook being between Rotcher and Shoulder.
There are only 3 old dwellings at the bottom of Rotcher ( see photo on Stephen's link), so I'm wondering where the PR beerhouse was exactly? Could have been the Nook/R&C but I've no idea about the history of this pub but the building is very old.
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Bykerlads - I agree with Josey that the Princess Royal was on the site that's now the Rotcher cafe. The Nook (aka R&C) has been on that site since at least the 1861 census as far as I'm aware.
Interesting about the Ring O'Bells (landlord John Bray). There was a John who was James' brother. I know he did own pubs at one time. I wonder if the R O'B was one of his?
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Stephen- I can't seem to find the Rose and Crown on the 1881 census. Can you point me in the right direction please? I'd expect to find it somewhere between Rotcher and Shoulder of Mutton, Ribbleden but am unsure of exactly what order the census takers did their recording.
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I was raised in Holmfirth AND lived in a pub, not the one being discussed here, but I do agree with bykerlads post, e.g. it could have been what is affectionately now known as 'The Nook'
On the previous page there is the Shoulder of Mutton and the the Ring o' Bells(landlord 1881 John Bray) Ribbleden - any pub or building which could have been the Nook/Rose&Crown seems absent.
The Shoulder is still there today. Nook being between Rotcher and Shoulder.
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An enumerator travelling from the bottom of Dunford Road and into Rotcher would surely pass, and therefore be responsible for collecting census forms from The Rose and Crown (as known today, or 'Nook'), the Nook is an old building which would definitely have been there in 1881. I cannot see how The Rose and Crown could have been in the book of another enumerator.
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Yes, that was my thought, Libby ie that the Rose/Nook would have been recorded between the Shoulder and the bottom of Rotcher. So I was puzzled as to where is was on 1881 census.
I did ask my mum if she recalled a pub called the Princess Royal in the 1930's but she did not- she only remembered that as children they never ventured into the area around the current Nook, as it was dark, dirty and full of "rough, drunk" types.
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With regards to the rose & Crown, Holmfirth street directories have it in its current location as early as 1847. My ancestor lived above it in 1861.
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With regards to the rose & Crown, Holmfirth street directories have it in its current location as early as 1847. My ancestor lived above it in 1861.
Well how odd! The 1901 census has 'Princess Royal' Victoria Square, RG13 piece 4096 folio 41 page 1
NO other pub there!?!?
The following census names the Pub 'Rose and Crown.
Perhaps the establishment changed it's name backwards and forwards over the decades?!?!
Whatever, I'm absolutely convinced that the Princess Royal and Rose and Crown are one and the same place, all available evidence suggests this.
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the Princess Royal on Rotcher Road (1880s-1890s)
#1
So, the Princess Royal wasn't on Rotcher Road exactly by address, but in Victoria Square. Has to be the Rose and Crown, maybe your ancestor changed it's name and later another Innkeeper changed it back to it's original name?
by 1891, is working as a beer seller at the Princess Royal beerhouse at the bottom end of Rotcher Road opposite Victoria Square
From where did you glean this exact location? The 1901 census states address as Victoria Square, as opposed to opposite Victoria Square.
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My only other explanation is: the 'Princess Royal wasn't an Inn, but a beer seller's establishment - of which there were many in the 19th century - BUT if that's the case where was the Rose and Crown on census 1891 and 1901? Seems odd don't you agree that the 'Princess Royal' can be found in 1891 and 1901, cannot be found in later census, but the Rose and Crown IS on the 1911 census, however the Princess Royal isn't!
Your call Stephen, we can merely help with evidence found, up to you to evaluate the evidence - but I know how I'd interpret it.
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It seems odd that the Rose & Crown and the Princess Royal are never to be seen on the same census return - when one is recorded the other is not.
Nowadays the R&C is also called the Nook. I wonder if the tradition of dual names/name swopping for that pub started much earlier ?
If it ever stops raining here, I'll pop over to Holmfirth and have a look around and refresh my memory of what that little area looks like.
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Hi! Am fairly sure I took the 1891 info about the Royal being on Rotcher Road from the census page. Happy to be corrected tho!
I think we need someone with access to Huddersfield area street directories to take a few years between 1850 and 1920 and see which pubs are in Victoria Sq. and which on Rotcher Rd (if any!)
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Would the archived street directories be at Huddersfield Library?
ADDED: There is a list of those held at
http://www.calderdale.gov.uk/leisure/localhistory/local-studies/directories.html
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Now, here's interesting for you:
I've looked on the Lancashire Libraries on-line 19th C newspapers archive.
For the Princess Royal beerhouse ( Holmfirth but no precise address) there are 3 refs in 1890, 92, 94 all local petty sessions court cases( refusal to quit premises, serving a drunk, being drunk etc), with landlord James Bray named in the 1892 report.
For Rose and Crown ( Holmfirth but no address) there are over 90 refs between 1840 and 1895, court cases, reports of meetings, including Druids, Chartists etc.( I haven't read them all but here are a few:
Flood victims 1852.
On 15/06/1861 the landlord was William Bray. On 15/08/1863 Tedbar Earnshaw died there.
No reports at all in the 1870's.
On 25/08/1890 Arthur Beaumont of R&C won a prize in a dog show!
An inquest was held on 10/10/1890 at the R&C Hotel.
Feb 1895 , a meeting was held there.
So, at least from 1980-94 the PR beerhouse and the R&C Inn/Hotel seem to have existed concurrently.The beerhouse seemingly smaller,more disreputable than the inn/hotel.
The lack of precise address is a bit of a nuisance, I feel.
Will keep digging...
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Great finds, Bykerlads.
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Bykerlads - great research but some bad news! Last week I had been trying to find references to William Bray and the rose & crown in Holmfirth and it appears there must have been two pubs of the same name in the area of qhat could be called Holmfirth! I'll be able to provide some examples tomorrow when I'm nearer a computer (and less nearer my one year old child!)
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yes, I was beginning to wonder about the exact location of the R&C.
From the newspaper reports, it was sufficiently respectable for societies, including ladies' groups to hold meetings and dinners there and for inquests to be held on the premises. Perhaps a bit unlikely that it was near the PR beerhouse which had several brushes with the Law?
( there was also the Crown- now I think the Post Card?)
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Bykerlads, from my research it seems that the Masonic meetings took place at the "other" R+C. I *think* I was able to diacount it because its landlord - another william Bray who I had presumed was 'mine' - was still in charge a few years after "mine" had left Yorkshire.
Will check my records on this tomorrow. In the meantime, later tonight, I'll try and put my old notes on the Victoria sq. R+C on here.
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In 1861 William Bray's (born 1822) address was Higgin Bridge, Rose and Crown Inn. RG 9; Piece: 3250; Folio: 99; Page: 44
According to this site, Higgin Bridge is in Victoria Square.
http://www.usefulplaces.co.uk/near/higgin-bridge-house-victoria-square-holmfirth-hd9
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The Princess Royal has yet another address in 1871 : Victoria Street
RG10 piece 4349 folio 4 page 1
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Despite it being seemingly missing by name in census 1891, I've found indications that the R&C was indeed where the Nook is today.
On the newspapers website, I followed Arthur Beaumont of R&C, dog show winner. He was in 1891 son of Abel Beaumont innkeeper, address Holmfirth just after South Lane( no named pub!!).
1892 April- manslaughter case- death occuring after fight in R&C, Abel the landlord is witness,victim also drinking in Shoulder mentioned, after fight victim goes straight off up Rotcher, dies at home at Ward Place. The whole report gives the feeling that it all took place near the Nook.
( quite a few mentions of Abel and his pub in the papers, he served on many committees and was a councillor. Just got in a spot of bother in court with the brewery after he left the pub in 1900)
Am inclined to think that R&C and PR were near neighbours, the latter being a smaller, lowlier establishment near bottom of Rotcher.
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I found reference to a W Bray at the Rose & Crown in MELTHAM in the British Newspaper Archive. Will transcribe excerpt tomorrow [v early start in morning to take Mr Josey to the station for a week's work in L*nd*n so going to bed now].
bykerlads, yes Crown became the Postcard. I have made a list of all the pubs mentioned in the archive phot book, will post that as well tomorrow.
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Meltham! Yes, that's the other reference I found, too. That's the R+C where the Mason meetingsetc. Take place...
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Notes on Wm Bray and R&C
1842 - R&C George Higgins
1847 - Rose & Crown (George Higgins') - WB is butcher (Cartworth)
1851: Hant Row, Cartworth, WB 29, butcher, with wife and son
1854 - R&C - Joseph Lodge. WB - butcher
1858: R&C Joseph Lodge. WB butcher
1861: Rose & Crown, Higgin Bridge, 39, butcher, Cinderhills with family and Ann Charlesworth, 15 year old house servant from Hepworth
1866 - R&C Martha Dearnley. WB - butcher
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Pubs in Holmfirth mentioned/pictured in archive photograph book [Peter & Iris Bullock 1995]:
The Friendship Inn demolished] to widen Towngate
Jolly Hatters demolished] ditto
The White Hart now Brambles
The Crown now The Postcard
The George Inn [Upperbridge] now Cellar 88
Elephant & Castle [Upperbridge]
The Victoria Hotel demolished in the 1960s [?corner of Station Road & Bridge Lane]
The Nook aka Rose & Crown
The King’s Head Inn [Upperbridge] demolished 1969 after runaway lorry damaged adjacent
buildings
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Peasants and clothiers, by pupils of holmfirth sec school in the late sixties.
Lists all the above inns and notes most were closed when stricter laws came into force after the first world war
Reference to Princess Royal simply states Used to be Higgin Briff
Couldn google any reference to Higgin Briff but it threw up lots off repeated references to Higgin Brigg as a summer wine filming location
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For anyone interested in Holmfirth drinking dens the Holmfirth Civic Society have just launched a book called
Public Houses of Holmfirth - Past & Present
http://communitydirectory.kirklees.gov.uk/communityDirectory/organisationdetails.aspx?orgid=1000
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The abovementioned book is now available to download for free:
https://www.holmfirthhistory.org.uk/books/ (https://www.holmfirthhistory.org.uk/books/)