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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: Genie24 on Thursday 06 February 14 21:06 GMT (UK)
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I have been searching for a while for the death records of two of my great, great, great grandfathers. John Ferries born I think 3rd November 1822 Presbyterian Dromara Down, Ireland. I think he died in May 1874 in Greenock, Renfrewshire, Scotland following a death announcement in the Greenock Telegraph. Announcements states John Ferries father of John Ferries who was my great, great grandfather who was born also born in Greenock. I have been unable to find any record of him on the 1871 census but his last known address was 1 Buccleugh Street Greenock. He was a shoemaker. I am also looking for my my great, great, great grandfather Duncan McKenzie who was father of Isabella Mckenzie (wife of John Ferries Junior). He was born on 22nd February 1833 in Paisley Renfrewshire. His father was also Duncan McKenzie and his mother Margaret Brunton. I believe he died about 1860 aged only 27. He is not on the 1861 census and his wife (Ellen Dunning) has remarried and is living with her new husband John Eadie on the 1861 census. So h :-\e probably died about 1859-1860. Does anyone know of any other source other than Scotland's People that I can use to locate this information. Scotland's People is a brilliant resource and I have been able to find out very detailed information about my ancestors from them. However, there are gaps in the records and I don't know where to go to continue my research.
Julie
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1874 FERRES JOHN M 85 GREENOCK OLD OR WEST /RENFREW 564/03 0468
Looks like he did die in 1874 you can download his death registration from Scotland's People http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
1860 MCKENZIE DUNCAN M GREENOCK NEW OR MIDDLE /RENFREW 564/01 0176
1861 MCKENZIE DUNCAN MCDOUGALL M 18 GREENOCK OLD OR WEST /RENFREW 564/03 0240
Not sure which one it might be so here are both entries.
Don
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Hi Don,
Thanks for your reply. I am still unable to find the records. Are you able to search by reference number? Previously, when I searched it came up with 8 names none with surname Ferries all surname variants and none were him.Could you please tell me what to put in the search? Is it best to search by exact name. The record you gave for John Ferries states Male 85 when in actual fact he would be around 52. The records for Duncan McKenzie don't give an age. It is very frustrating trying to find these records and wasting money buying credits in the process when they don't lead to anything.
Thanks for your help.
Julie
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I am still unable to find any death records for the above. I don't know what I am doing wrong but I found out you can put the reference number but still nothing. Can anyone please tell me exactly what to put in to the search or have any suggestions about where else to look.
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In a nutshell, you go to Scotland's People, select statutory deaths, you fill in the surname, then the given name and the year. You click on "do the search" then once it propagates you pay the £7 for 30 credits then you click on "view 1 credit" than you select the individual you you want and open the one you want which will cost you 5 more credits.
Don
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Hello Genie24,
Don't put anything in Age Range or Birth Year & 2 matches come up. (Probably the 2 DonM found). I couldn't find them either when I put approx. Birth year &/or Age Range in. Hope this helps.
DonM, I don't think Genie24 was asking how to use SP website but how to find one particular person.
Regards, Dod.
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Thanks to both of you. I left out the dates and tried to view the images. No luck so had to change my viewing options to download. After all of that - both are the wrong people so back to the drawing board I'm afraid. Will keep looking though. I think Scotland's people do not have the records.
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Hi Julie
Is this the death notice you saw?:
John Ferris, father of John, died at Greenock Infirmary in May 1874. (Greenock Telegraph
26.5.1874)
www.inverclyde.gov.uk/business-and-trade/business-development/business-gateway/
I think you may have now viewed this entry? What did it say? What was the place of death?
There is no mention of an address there. How have you connected this to your John? Wondering if this death is unconnected to your John Snr....
Monica
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Julie, is this the family in 1861:
John Ferries 41 shoemaker b. Ireland
Mary Ferries 31
Rebecca Ferries 15...too early a marriage (1864) to confirm a death for father https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYWN-R98
John Ferries 6
Willm Ferries 4
James Ferries 2
Address: 1 Buccleugh St, Greenock
Last child maybe 1866? https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ7F-TR4 which fits with a possible census entry for mother Mary with daughter Mary in 1881, both showing as boarders at 1 St Andrew Square, Greenock.
1871, cannot see anything so far - wonder how they have been indexed :-\
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Thanks for your interest. The newspaper announcement was very brief and gives the place of death as Greenock Infirmary. I viewed the death that Don found on Scotland's people but I already knew it wasn't him as the age was 85 and my great, great, great, grandfather was only in his early fifties. However, I now know this is not his date of death. The record has his name as John Ferres and date of death is 24th May 1874. The announcement is two days later. Cause of death is Typhus Fever.
The interesting thing is that his residence was Drumfrochar Road where incidently one of the Ferries children was born - Robert Ferries born 1882. There may be a family connection so I need to look at this further. The announcement said John Ferries father of John Ferries so I assumed it was him,
The youngest child was as you say Mary born 7th January 1866 - later to become Mary Mitchell. Her mother died at her house in 1911. She is with them on the 1901 and 1911 census and they are indeed living at 1 St. Andrew's Square in 1881. John Ferries is alive in 1871 as he is on the census living with wife Mary, and children John, Robert and Mary. His occupation is given as labourer. I found this census on Find My Past though as it's not on Ancestry. He first appears on the 1851 Census living at 13 Cowgate, St. Lambs Land, Greenock (shoemaker). With them are 2 lodgers from Ireland. In 1861 they have moved to 1 Buccleigh St (shoemaker). He married in 1844 but is not on the 1841 census so I think he left Ireland between 1841-1844. John, his son, married my great, great grandmother on March 30th 1875 but I haven't been able to find their actual marriage record so don't know if his father was alive at that time.
Therfore, I can only conclude that he died some time between 1871 and 1881. His death record must be somewhere!
Regards Julie
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Is this son John's marriage that you mention https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYQC-B6N
The marriage is showing on SP :) The spellings are as showing on the indexed entry on the link.
Monica
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Hi! Yes that is their marriage. I have absolute proof as I have a newspaper cutting of their Diamond Wedding and the date is mentioned. They were married in the Scottish Episcopal Church, Greenock. I have just found their marriage record from Scotland's People. I printed it out a couple of years ago but couldn't find it. It shows that his father was deceased at the time of their marriage which means he died between 2nd April 1971 and 30th March 1875 - a four year period.
Julie
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Julie, sometimes happens that names are misindexed on the register for searches (I know, took me for ever to find my lovely g grandfather Patrick Tulley :-\). The sort of searches that could help now may not be available to you as I don't think you are local to relevant family history libraries. The sort of checks would be the valuation rolls for the period. SP are putting these online, but they are doing it in stages and the earliest online at the moment is 1885 (www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&2080). John Snr's death may not have been in Greenock though, he may have died elsewhere (not that I am seeing anything on a wider search that could help for now).
I was just looking at the McKenzie side. I was looking for the children to see which was the last one. You have this, but just for background here:
Isabella (who married John Ferries) 1856 www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&2080
Daniel 1858 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYYK-NY5
Were there any more after this?
Monica
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Ok, found census now for 1861 I think. Ages mis-transcribed? Surname McFarlane?:
Andrew Mcfarlane 28
Isabella Mcfarlane 29
Sarah Mcfarlane 10
Ellen Mckenzie 30 b. Ireland
John Mckenzie 10 grandchild b. Greenock
Isabella Mckenzie 4 grandchild b. Dumbartonshire
Danl Mckenzie 2 grandchild b. Dumbartonshire
Elizth Mckenzie 4 months grandchild b. Greenock
Address: 7 Smiths Lane, Greenock
1861 census was on Sunday 7 April. With Elizabeth showing as 4 months old, Duncan's death would need to have been in 1860 (if she was his child?).
Was he a shipwright? He could have died at sea...
Monica
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Those records are the correct ones. Duncan McKenzie (g.g.g grandfather) was born 22nd February 1833 in Paisley. On his daughter Isabella's birth record (my g.g.grandmother) on 26th December 1856 his occupation is Rivetter Journeyman but on her marriage record her father is Duncan McKenzie Shipwright deceased. I must admit it had never crossed my mind that he may have died at sea. The youngest of their children was Elizabeth aged 4 months on the 1861 census. Children John, Isabella, Daniel and Elizabeth. Another child Catherine died date unknown as yet. They were living at 7 Smiths Lane. They were not grandchildren of the head of house as stated. Their age confirms that but I think that Isabella may have been Ellen's sister as she was also from Ireland. Ellen is working as their housekeeper. On the 1871 Census Ellen is now married to John Eadie and has three further children Ellen, Alexander and Sarah Ann. On the 1881 census she is visiting her daughter Isabella and husband John Ferries (g.g.grandparents) in Sunderland but is now Mrs Connal. Her youngest child Sarah Ann (Isabella's step-sister) is working as their servant. She is there again as visior in 1901 and actually living with them on the 1911 census and has reverted to her name of Eadie. She is aged 78 and I assume she lived with them until her death which I also cannot find. Maybe she moved back to Scotland or she changed her name again. I had been told by a cousin when I first started searching that both Isabella's parents were deceased at the time of her marriage. It took me ages to find her. Not only does she change her name often, on various records she is Dinnin, Dunnan, Dunning, Dinyon etc. The Familysearch record for Daniel McKenzie b. 1858 states mother Dinnin. However, I go with Dunning as Isabella names one of her children Ellen Dunning Ferries after her mother.
Isabella and Daniel were both born in Dunbartonshire. I now need to find a birth for his youngest child Elizabeth to see if she was born there or in Greenock. That still may not help if he died at sea.
Regards Julie
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I struggled finding an entry for Elizabeth born late 1860. I thought she might have even been registered into early 1861 (there was one entry showing on SP in Greenock for 1861) but I think this might be that entry from SP - the only one and not connected to the family - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ7J-KV5
Monica
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Julie, don't worry about the spellings for Helen/Ellen's maiden name. Spellings were so fluid at this time that you will likely find a full range of variations for this surname. My Patrick's mother, Mary was a Dorrington from Ireland...I lost count on the number of variations on spellings. None are wrong when you have no hard fast rules on spellings of names as you do today.
Monica
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Regarding Isabella McFarlane from 1861, there are some births later that might connect, taking in to account spellings of Dunning as this Isabella shows as Dunyon:
Matthew 1864 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQGZ-WG4
Andrew 1865 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQTV-C3X
James 1870 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQTT-MB2
Can't see them in 1871 so far :-\
Monica
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I think it is very likely that Isabella is Ellen's sister and she went to Greenock to live with them after her husband's death. I can't find a birth for Sarah McFarlane though born 1851 Greenock. If that turns up with mother's name Dunyon it must be the correct one.
I have also been looking for Elizabeth McKenzie and can't find her.
Julie
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I am wondering if Elizabeth was never registered and that she died soon after the 1861 census. She is not on the 1871 census. The only McKenzie children are Isabella and Daniel. Ellen has three more children to John Eadie. Ellen, Alexander and Sarah Ann. My great, great grandmother Isabella named one of her sons Alexander Eadie Ferries. I think as she was so young when her mother married they just became her family. Times must have been so hard back then.
Julie
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Julie, a death on SP for an Isabella Young McFarlane/Dannion or Dunnion (see, spellings still all over the place!). Aged 66, she died in Greenock in 1899.
Monica
PS: A puzzle about Elizabeth :-\ I can't see a death for her between 1861-71 to explain why she is not with 'family' in 1871.
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I have just found Elizabeth's death on Scotland's People. She died on 6th September 1863 at 1, Highland Close, Greenock aged 2 3/4. Her father is named as Duncan McKenzie Rivetter (Deceased). Mother is named as Ellen Eadie formerly McKenzie maiden name Dunyon. Ellen was the informant which she did the very next day. The cause of death was Phthisis.
I will have to look at the other one. I am rapidly running out of credits!
Julie
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You do :P But it can be productively addictive...and cost effective too!
How about this entry for Helen's death down in Durham?
Helen Connell, aged 79 (born c. 1834, which is close). 2nd Qrt 1913, Sunderland, Durham. Vol 10a, pg 841.
Monica
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That sounds like a possibility. I know when I looked before I turned up very little that could be her. Where did you find it as I have just looked on FreeBMD and it's showing nothing. The City of Sunderland website is usually very good but nothing on there either.
I suppose Connel was her legal name but she must have preferred the name Eadie. Maybe because that was her children's name. The age is about right and I always maintained she died living at her daughter's house. This family research can be very confusing. I'm sure our ancestors did it on purpose! I have managed to trace her on all census records since she married even though she has tried to elude me.
Julie
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She is also showing on FreeBmd...just with a double 'll' on the Connell ::) You never forget the spelling variations. I think I write with wildcards!
Monica
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Thanks for you help Monica! I have discovered quite a lot tonight but I musn't forget I still haven't found the deaths of my two great, great, great grandfathers. I suppose I have to admit I may never find them.
Julie
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We never forget the brickwalls, Julie ;) We just go round the corners in the meantime!
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Thanks again for all the help yesterday. I thought you might be interested in an update on what I have been able to find since then.
I looked at the record you found of Isabella McFarlane and it confirmed that my suspicions were correct and she is indeed the sister of my great, great, grandmother Ellen/Helen/ Dunning/Diinin/Dinnan/Dunion/Dannion/Dunyon.......... She died on 7th November 1899 of Pneumonia. The informant was her son living at 59 Dalrymple Steet which is the street my great, grandmother was born in 1877! It confirms the names of my Great X 4 grandparents Peter and Sarah but of course the name has changed again and is Dannion. It gives Sarah's maiden name as Docherty which I didn't know so progress!!!
In addition to the death of Elizabeth, the last child of Duncan McKenzie, I also found a birth of a Thomas on Familysearch. I subsequently found a death on 26th July 1869 aged 1 1/6 years!!! Actual age 13 months of Hydrocephalus. Ellen's 2nd husband died aged 52 years old on 14 September 1871 at 6:15 a.m. at Old Gravity Dock. Cause of death disease of the heart. I assume he had just turned up for work and dropped dead. Now I need to find a death for her 3rd husband as I feel sure he also died soon after or they divorced as she reverted to the name Eadie. I am feeling such empathy for her! My husband will kill me if he knew how much I am spending on credits etc though !!!
If there is anything I can help you with please don't hesitate to ask. I am always grateful to those like you who are prepared to search for someone like me who is totally unrelated to them,
Regards Julie
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Julie, you are going great guns on this (or is it SP units :P ;D). Once it starts to unravel a bit, a lot of information comes together quickly. To be honest, you have to do it this way, in quick spurts, as this is the way you can keep it all in your head and make the big leaps.
The death of the Thomas you mentioned was an Eadie (for a moment, I thought Duncan was still about!).
When did Ellen marry James Connell? I can see it on online trees mid 1870s, but can't see it on SP. Did Ellen show as widowed in 1881 whilst staying with the Ferries?
Monica
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Hi Monica!
Yes I am quite pleased with what I have found so far. Unfortunately, the Scottish census don't show the images so details are missed but on the 1881 census, when she is visiting her daughter in Greenock, she is just shown as visitor Mrs Connal. On the 1891 census she is visiting a friend Catherine Britton at 105 Main Street, Glasgow. Helen Connell female. In the 1901 census she is again visiting her daughter in Sunderland Ellen Connell Visitor widow. On the 1911 census Ellen Carlie (mis-transcribed Eadie) mother-in-law, widowed resident. So documentary evidence only confirms that she is a widow arpund 1901 when she is most probably widowed in 1881.
Regarding her marriage to Connell. I am afraid I have an awful habit of adding data to my tree and forgetting to add the source so 1. I don't know where I got the name James from and 2. where I got the date 1875 from. Probably someone else's tree but I have no documentary evidence to support this.
Regards Julie
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Julie, in 1881, Helen is still showing as married so James Connell still about... Although I have struggled to find marriage from general searches on SP still.
I thought she might not have had a legal marriage, which might explain why she showed as still Eadie in 1911, but that is just guesswork, and because I can't find the marriage, which makes my active brain overwork ::)
Monica
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Hi Monica,
I thought you might be interested to hear how my research has progressed since you so kindly helped me a few weeks ago.
The death record for Duncan McKenzie that I thought was the wrong one, I now think is the correct one. I printed it off then realised I had paid for it twice as I had it in my file from when I first started researching. I had dismissed it as he was the wrong age and the parents were not the ones I had in my tree (Duncan McKenzie and Margaret Brunton). His age was 35 giving his date of birth as 1825 when I had 1830. The address was 5 Highland Close, Greenock. However, when I have delved deeper with his wife Ellen (Dunnning/Dunyon....etc the list is endless) I have found her marriage to John Eadie on 4th August 1861. The address they both give is Highland Close. Also the death record (6th September 1863) of her daughter Elizabeth born after her father's death gives an address of 1 Highland Close, Greenock. Surely this is not just a coincidence. His occupation was Boilermaker and the cause of death was Pneumonia. I think that Duncan and John Eadie may have been friends or worked together. John was a widow when he married Ellen.
This means that all of the information I have in my tree going back from Duncan McKenzie is incorrect so I am now working on that. His parents names on the death record are given as John McKenzie (Railway Labourer) and Isabella McKenzie maiden name McGregor. This makes complete sense as Ellen and Duncan's first two children are named John and Isabella so it is all now falling in to place.
So even though I have found out the answer to the mystery of my great X 3 grandfather's death, I now have further questions. Where was he born? ( I originally thought he was born in Paisley). Where did they live? I am struggling to find them on the census records. Duncan McKenzie was a very common name. Who was John Eadie's first wife? Where did they live? Were they living near Ellen and Duncan.
I am inclined to agree with you regarding Ellen's third marriage to Connell. She married some time between 1871 and 1881 and he died some time between 1881 and 1901. I don't think I will ever find an answer to that. I am also unable to find a marriage or any evidence of children, even though Ellen would have still been of child bearing age.
I am also working on the possibility of three other siblings of Ellen living in Greenock at that time. I put Dunyon in Familysearch and an Elizabeth, Matthew and Rose Ann cropped up. I am trying to find them on census records to establish if they too were born in Ireland.
The quest continues!
Julie
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Hi Julie
Great to hear the updates :)
Is the death you mention for Duncan the one that Don mentioned early on (1860 - MCKENZIE DUNCAN in GREENOCK NEW OR MIDDLE, ref. 564/01 0176)?
Duncan and Ellen married in 1850 didn't they. Have you found them on the 1851 census? I thought this might be them that year, although the transcript likely has erred on Duncan's age?
Duncan Mckenzie 76 Labourer Sugar House b. Ireland
Helen Mckenzie 25 b. Ireland
John Mckenzie 1 Month b. Greenock
Address: Market Street Allisons Land, Greenock Middle
A bit of a worry about possible range of occupations for Duncan: Rivetter, shipwright, boilermaker and possibly a labourer in a sugar house (from above).
Just for background here, is this Ellen and second marriage household in 1871:
John Eadie 52 b. Dysart, fifeshire
Ellen Eadie 40 b. Ireland
Ellen Eadie 7
Isabella Eadie 14...McKenzie
Daniel Eadie 13...McKenzie
Alex Eadie 5
Sarah Ann Eadie Under 4 Months
Address: 7 Broad Close, Greenock
From the children's names, Alexander and Sarah Ann were John and Ellen's children and Isabella and Daniel from the McKenzie marriage.
From the 1861 marriage where John showed as widower, what his address and parents' names? Witnesses' names? Did John's marriage age match what you have on his death etc. Just trying to see if we can find him in earlier censuses.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Yes that is Ellen and her first child John living at Market Street, Greenock. I think that the Duncan McKenzie aged 76 is Duncan's grandfather Sugar House Labourer or they have made a mistake with the age and it should read 26. I also found a Duncan McKenzie on the 1841 census living at 24 Market Street but he was 9 years old which would mean he was born around 1832 in Greenock. I thought I had found her son John on the 1871 census but his parents were the wrong ones. I got his marriage record from Scotland's People and his address was Market Street so I think may be connected. It is possible that there was another branch of the family in the area. They tended to name their children with the same names.I can't find a marriage for a John McKenzie and Isabella McGregor or a birth for Duncan. The one on Familysearch had parents Duncan McKenzie and Margaret Brunton. I believed this to be him but his death record proves otherwise. The only one on Familysearch is not in that era. I can't find John's birth either so think they may not have registered him but his age on the 1851 census shows him as 4 months so must have been born January 1851.
That is Ellen on the 1871 census with John Eadie. John, her eldest has moved out, so just Daniel and Isabella (my great, great grandmother) to her first marriage and Alexander and Sarah Ann John's children. They also had an Elizabeth (Duncan's child born after his death) and Thomas (John's child). Both died in infancy. I found their death records. John's parents were Thomas Eadie born 1787 Fife and died 1857 St. Clair Town. His mother was Margaret Philip 1786-1861 Fife.
I don't think this is going to be easy.
Julie
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Frustrating fun!
Looking at the 1851 transcript for that McKenzie family shows Helen as wife, so very likely Duncan's age has been mistranscribed as does happen. I tried searching the entry on FreeCen http://freecen.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl as their coverage of 1851 is continuing to gather pace, but couldn't see that entry unfortunately.
If this entry is the correct one, then you have an Irish element, which as always makes things very tricky. With Duncan having died by 1861, the 1851 census is the only one that you can be certain of that it is him. Still worried about all the multiple occupations for him though as they are all quite different, and shipwright and rivetter would require an apprentice time.
Unfortunately, pre 1855 in Scotland is always tricky. Only about a third of births and marriages were recorded (deaths even worse).
Monica
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Is this the death you seek?
Duncan McKenzie (boilermaker) age 35 died 12 JUL 1860 in Greenock, he was married but spouse not identified. Informant was his father John McKenzie (railway worker). His mother was Isabella McGregor.
Don
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Hi Don
I think that is the one that you mentioned earlier and Julie says she has now reviewed, with the details both of you have added.
Julie, I think this is John Eddie in 1861, just before his marriage a few months later:
Ann Mcintyre 40
Janet Mcintyre 12
John Mcintyre 10
Ann Mcintyre 8
Archibald Mcintyre 6
John Addie 43 Ship Carpenter boarder b. Dysart Fife
Brakan Addie 33 boarder b. Dundee, loffberrey (?Broughty Ferry). She shows as female on the transcript. Could this be his wife??? Would have to have died anon for him to marry Ellen by August.... ::) I also don't have to mention about spelling variations: Eadie/Eddie/Addie etc...~!
Address: 1 Williams St, Greenock Middle
Monica
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Julie, when do you have the marriage for John Eddie to Ellen?
I think the 1861 census entry I posted is as follows:
A John Eddie married a Barbara Smith in 1852 in Angus https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTVT-Q6G
No children from the marriage that I can see on Family Search - except perhaps this one post 1855 where the family surname may have been mistranscribed https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ4F-KYM
Barbara Smith/Eddie died on October 26th (I think on day) in 1861. Wife of John Eddie, a ship's carpenter, living at 1 Highland Close Greenock. Her parents, Alexander Smith, a mason and Jane Ritchie. John husband reported the death.
Monica
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Ahh...marriage for Helen and John in 1862 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYQC-J43 Unusually for this time, she showed under her married surname rather than maiden name.
So the above, with details of a Barbara Smith, could fit.
Monica
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Sorry Don and Monica, I didn't realise you had been posting replies as I didn't get the usual e-mails to notify me.
Yes Don the death record was the one you found for me. I had looked at it before but dismissed it as age and parents weren't correct. It turns out that it was my tree that was wrong. The address at time of death confirms it.
Monica the ages of both Duncan and John Eadie seem to match. John's matches his age at marriage and death and Duncan's matches the 1851 census (if it is him) and age at death.
I have now found all of the birth records for Ellen's children both to Duncan and John Eadie. I did this by leaving out the mother's name in the search. I was hoping her first child John's birth record in Greenock would show a name and occupation of father. However, it is pre 1855 so just shows name. The next two children Isabella and Daniel were born in Dumbarton. Maybe he served his apprenticeship there. The rest are born in Greenock either in Highland Close or Broad Close. I was really hoping to find Ellen and Duncan's marriage. I have it on Family search 1850 but not on Scotland's People. I am puzzled about this. That may have shown his occupation and parent's names. The records have revealed a few things. I did look at the witnesses on the Eadie marriage but it meant nothing until now. I had already found evidence that Isabella McFarlane was a Dunyon so was her sister. I found a Rose Ann Dunyon, Matthew Dunyon and Elizabeth Dunyon on Familysearch and thought they too could be siblings. I am still working on Matthew but Rose Ann and Elizabeth I think may be cousins. or related in some way. On Ellen and John's marriage record one of their witnesses was Henry Bonner. He married Rose Ann Dunyon in 1861. They were living at 3 Broad Close. On John's (first child) birth record Elizabeth Dinnan was sponsor. Rose Ann's parents were John and Margaret Dunning and Elizabeth's were Patrick Dunning and Sarah Docherty. Ellen and Isabella's were Peter Dunyon and Sarah Rafferty (crossed out) Docherty . I feel certain that Dunning is the correct spelling as it was passed down to Ellen's grandaughter Ellen Dunning Ferries. Elizabeth also married in 1861 and lived at 4 Highland Close right next door to where Duncan McKenzie died.
I am absolutely delighted that you found a marriage for John Eadie to his first wife. Her address at time of death 1 Highland Close suggests that Ellen moved in with him after their marriage. The possible census record sounds correct. I have seen a few mis-transcriptions on Familysearch so Addie and Caddie are feasible. It shows his wife was 10 years younger than him, The address - William Street is where my great X 2 grandparents were living on one of the censuses. I need to get a Greenock map which shows the old streets. I have one but it is Greenock West. I need Greenock East.
Another strange thing. I found one of the daughters of Rose Ann and Henry Bonner - Catherine Bonner on the 1881 census visiting a family at 3 Cameron's Court. Another visitor was a John Connell!!! He was a Labourer in a boatyard and born in Ireland about 1842 so a lot younger than Ellen but not impossible. She was also visiting a friend on the 1881 census. May be a clue to her third husband. I am having to do quite a bit of adjustment to my tree.
I appreciate your help. You have really helped me to break down the brick walls. Considering I was told by a cousin when I first started researching that Ellen (my great X 3 grandmother )was dead at the time of her daughter's marriage in 1875, I now seem to know all about her!
Julie
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...I was really hoping to find Ellen and Duncan's marriage. I have it on Family search 1850 but not on Scotland's People. I am puzzled about this. That may have shown his occupation and parent's names....
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYQZ-3QX this is the marriage isn't it? There is a marriage showing in the OPRs on SP. I searched for a marriage for a Helen Dunnan and a Duncan Mckenzie and it does seem to show on SP with the matching details from FS.
I wouldn't hold out much hope that the OPR entry will be much more than a one liner with just their names sadly. At best, you may get the bride's father's name :-\
I am not good with maps for Greenock. From NLS though, there is this one from 1857 http://maps.nls.uk/view/74415991 Not sure if this help you now.
Monica
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Hi Monica! Yes you are right it is there. I don't know why I didn't find it. I think I was just certain it would be in the catholic registers and I should have used the spelling on Familysearch. I didn't use it I used the name variant and other options. Obviously this is something you just get better at as you go along. I agree, I don't think there will be any extra details that would help me further. I will look at it though soon. I think I have spent enough on credits this week!!! You found a death for Barbara Eadie (Smith). The address proves it was John's wife. Did the record show the cause of death?
Thank you for the map. It shows some of the streets my ancestors lived in: Buccleugh, Vennel, Cowgate, Shaw, Sugarhouse Lane etc. I just wanted to see where these streets were in relation to each other. I am going to order another old Alan Godfrey map.
You have shown that with a little help and determination the seemingly impossible is possible. I am so grateful.
I am now going to try and concentrate on Ellen's family from Ireland. I am assuming they came in the potato famine. Did they come as young adults without their parents or did they come too? If they came as children they may show on the 1841 census but after that not much chance. I will try on the immigration records. Irish records are hard to find. I have a few to trace.
My biggest challenge was one of my great, great, grandfather who was born in Sweden. Once again someone from this forum, who lives in Sweden saw my plight and looked at the Swedish records for me. He helped me trace back to the mid 1700s.
I have a lot of information now to help me get further.
Julie
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Julie, you are so enjoying this all...and that is what this research is all about...sheer passion and obsession!
You won't find anything on immigration type records from Ireland to the mainland. At that time, the whole of Ireland and mainland UK was one country. People just hopped on boats to get around and no records to cover that.
My main Tulley line came over from Ireland from the early 1850s. Maybe concentrate on what you have found so far in Scotland for possible Dunning family for Helen...and from there, branch out back to Ireland armed with more possible names.
Monica
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Post getting long :P which is a good thing ;D
Can you perhaps do a little summary of the possible Dunning family/relatives you have found so far for Helen?
Monica
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Yes you are right about the passion and obsession. My family have no interest whatsoever in my findings and think I am completely nuts. I have got back quite far with many lines in my tree but it is the personal lives I am most interested in. I find it very fulfilling to find out about my past. It makes everything make sense.
Good advice about the Irish element. It is clear you have a lot more experience than me,
What I have so far re possible family of Ellen (g.g.g.grandmother)
Confirmed sister Isabella Dunyon (Dunning) born around 1832. If born same place as Ellen this would be Londonderry. Same parents as Ellen - Peter Danion (Dunning) and Sarah Docherty. Married Andrew McFarlane (b.1833 Stirling - before 1899) Isabella was a widow when she died. You found the link to her death record which proves the relationship. They had at least 4 children:
Sarah 1851 (on 1851 and 1861 censuses)
Matthew - 13th May 1864 (long gap maybe more in between)
Andrew - 1st October 1865
James - 28th March 1870 - All were born in Greenock
Rose Ann Dunyon (Dunning - possible cousin) born around 1826
Parents John and Margaret Dunning (on marriage record)
Married Henry Bonner 8th April 1861 (Henry was witness at Ellen and John's marriage)
Living at 3 Broad Close at time of their marriage. They had at least 6 children:
Mary Ann 26th June 1861
Twins Catherine and Henry - 31st March 1863
Hugh - 7th August 1865
Margaret (1) - 26th April 1867
Margaret (2) - 13 June 1871 - All born Greenock
Elizabeth Dunyon (Dunning) (Sponsor at John McKenzie's baptism)
Parents Patrick Dunning and Sarah Docherty
married John O'Neill 17th June 1861 Greenock - living at 4 Highland Close
Died 21st March 1887 at 62, Vennel Street, Greenock widow of John (Watt Library Greenock Telegraph death announcement)
Had at least 4 children:
Sarah - 10th August 1862
Catherine - 5th Oct 1864
Elizabeth - 7th March 1867 (died 13th May 1902 15 Shaw Street - Watt Library Greenock Telegraph death announcement)
Patrick Edward - 2nd Nov 1868
Also Matthew Dunion (Dunning) ??? Not sure about him. Parents John Dunion and Mary J. Beattie.
Married Helen Kelly 9th July 1854 Greenock. Isabella has a son Matthew. Just thinking about family names.
Apart from Isabella McFarlane (Dunning) and Catherine Bonner (found on 1881 census with John Connell) no census records found yet. All records obtained from Familysearch, Scotland Select Births and Baptisms, Scotland Select Marriages, Scotland's People Births, Marriages and Deaths.
I have a lot of work to do!!!
Julie
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Julie, regarding Isabella and Andrew McFarlane, I think this might be their marriage/banns here in 1850 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYQF-D9R
Long gap between daughter Sarah and then Matthew in 1864. Tried again (which is how I found the marriage/banns ::)) but still can't see any more children for them via Family Search.
Monica
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Reading through your notes, we have potentially two sisters of Ellen, living their lives in Greenock? Isabella who married Andrew McFarlane and Elizabeth who married John O'Neil.
I think this is Elizabeth on the 1871 census:
John Oneil 40 labourer b. Ireland
Elizabeth Oneil 30 b. Ireland
Sarah Oneil 9
Catherine Oneil 6
Elizabeth Oneil 4
Edward Oneil 2
Address: 21 So Cage St, Greenock
Monica
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Guess what?!
Sarah Docherty, wife of Patrick Dunyon died in Greenock in 1872. Her ages are all over the place. I think this is her in 1871. The whole transcript is a bit of a mess on the details (no point adding occupations as they are a jumble ::)):
Sarah Dinming 60 b. Ireland
Peter Haggett 60 boarder b. Ireland
Peter Haggett 15 boarder's son b. Greenock
Andrew Mc Karlsan 51 son in law, labourer b. Ireland ...guessing this is meant to be McFarlane (husband of Isabella) b. Ireland
Sarah Mc Karlsan 19 b. Greenock grandchild
Peter Mc Karlsan 15 b. Greenock grandchild....we didn't have him before (remember we had a big gap up to Matthew and Peter doesn't show at home in 1861 when Ellen was there with her children at her sister Isabella McFarlane).
Sarah died the following year, in 1872 - aged 51 8) - at the same address as above, 24 Market Street Greenock. Widow of Patrick Dunyon, a labourer. Her son in law, John O'Neil (husband of Elizabeth that you have already) reported her death, now living at 51 Crawford Street. He didn't know the name of her parents :-\
Monica
Added: There is an Isabella McFarlane b. Ireland aged 35 in 1871 who shows as a patient at the Greenock Hospital and Infirmary. A possible for Isabella, if husband is with her mother in 1871....where are the rest of their children though for 1871 I wonder?
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Monica! You are an absolute genius! How did you do it? Since I've been researching, I always believed my great, great, great grandmother Ellen Dunning had come from Ireland on her own. Now it seems like at least her mother and siblings came with her. I haven't had time to look at all of this new evidence properly as we have had family for dinner tonight but I think the documents you have sent are definitely connected to them. The census for the family state address Market Street. This is where Ellen and Duncan are living on the 1851 census. I can't wait to look at the Scotland's People records to find out the details. I am particularly interested to find out how they died'
Isabella's son Peter that you found is clearly named after his great grandfather.
I am humbled to know how selflish people like you are spending your own time researching to help someone like me who is a complete stranger.
Julie
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Sorry that was supposed to read selfless.
Julie. X
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I understood, don't worry ;D
Monica
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I have now looked at more Scotland's People records. At last I have Duncan McKenzie and Ellen Dunning's marriage record. As you said it doesn't give any information about father's names or occupations but it gives Duncan's occupation as Sugar Baker. On the 1851 census it gives Dunan McKenzie aged 76!! occupation as Labourer Sugar House. I think he must have left Greenock to go to Dumbarton to learn a trade. Isabella Dunning (Dingan) and Andrew McFarlane's marriage record gives her father's name as Peter Dingan Labourer. Her death record gives his name also so she is definitely Ellen's sister. Elizabeth Dunning (O'Neill) died aged 44 of heart disease. Her father was Patrick Dunning - looks like Cattle Scaler. I think Sarah Docherty has married Peter Dunning and after his death married his brother Patrick. Do you agree? It is making a mess of my tree though. She was living at 24 Market Street, Greenock at the time of her death from Chronic Bronchitis Pleuritis. This is the same address Ellen, Duncan and baby John Were living on the 1851 census. I also have a Duncan McKenzie living there on the 1841 census with father John McKenzie and several siblings. His father was born in Scotland though and a seaman. I will have to investigate this. I told my mother yesterday of these findings. She was fascinated. I always said I would do my family tree when I retired. Now I am so glad I have done it now whilst my parents are still alive. They have given me so much information. I could never have got started without their help. My mother remembers her grandmother talking about the Eadies.
Julie
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Her father was Patrick Dunning - looks like Cattle Scaler. I think Sarah Docherty has married Peter Dunning and after his death married his brother Patrick. Do you agree? It is making a mess of my tree though.
Patrick & Peter are the same person :P A common first name variant, see here www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=patrick
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Oh no! I have changed my tree to show the '2nd' marriage and daughter ELizabeth to that marriage. Never thought it could be the same person. Means Peter/Patrick may have died in Greenock. I had Isabella on 1871 census in Greenock Infirmary and also wondered where the children were. I know James survived to adulthood as he was the informant of her death and iI have a census records for him.
Julie
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Julie, I couldn't easily see Matthew, Andrew or James McFarlane in 1871. The closest for 1881 for one of the boys was for James:
James McFarlane 12 b. Greenock. Address: 13 Captain St Greenock, Industrial School - see here www.workhouses.org.uk/IS/Scotland.shtml Doesn't look like records have survived to be able to follow up as to why James (if the right James) was there for 1881.
Monica
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Julie, made a post here on error (trouble with keeping multiple tabs open :P). You can tell I have kept your post open all day ;D
Monica
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That's OK. Just doing the usual trawling through records and trying to fix my tree. Been changed so many times.
I thought I found Ellen's parents Peter/Patrick and Sarah on the 1851 Census living with a son Matthew. I am still looking into the Matthew I found on Familysearch. The name came up as Dining. Peter b. 1809 Sugarhouse Labourer, Sarah b. 1813 and Matthew b. 1835 Labourer. They were living at 26 Market Street, McAllister Land. Only trouble is all of their births were in Greenock not Ireland. Peter died before 1862 as he was deceased on Ellen's marriage record to John Eadie. Finding a death is not easy though with the variety of spellings.
Julie
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That is a great entry for 1851 that you have found!
Peter Dining 42 Sugarhouse Labourer b. Greenock
Sarah Dining 38 b. Greenock
Matthew Dining 16 labourer b. Greenock
Address: Mcallister's Land Market Street 26, Greenock
Sometimes censuses show incorrect info...ages & birth places etc. I think this may be one of those instances ::)
From the entry we had earlier, in 1871, we had Sarah aged 60 born Ireland.
Wonder if we can find them in 1861. From Ellen's marriage, as you say, best bet would be a death for Patrick post 1855-1862. The 1861 census might help at this stage.
Monica
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I agree about the transcription errors. This just has to been Ellen's parents living just a couple of doors away on the 1851 census and both father and son working in the sugar factory. Remember Ellen's daughter was living in Sugarhouse lane at the time of her marriage.I just wish the original images were available to view. I will continue to search for an 1861 entry.
I have pinpointed a 14 month window for Peter/Patrick's death. He was alive at his daughter Elizabeth's marriage on 17th June 1861 but deceased on 4th August 1862 at daughter Ellen's marriage to John Eadie so should show on the 1861 census. Scotland's People is showing nothing for those dates in Greenock but a few elsewhere. I need to be a bit more certain before I gamble my credits away.
Regarding Matthew Dunning (Dinnen) the mysterious and possible brother of Ellen. His death record states that he died on the 5th March 1879 aged 53 years widow of Ann Malone 55 Shaw Street Greenock. The informant was Patrick Dinnon (Dunning) son who may have been named after his grandfather. No parents names are given.
I have been kept busy by this part of my tree and been distracted by my original focus Duncan Mckenzie my great X 3 grandfather. I need to find him living with parents John McKenzie and Isabella McGregor. Whether they were born in Ireland or Scotland remains a mystery.
Julie
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Success! I have found an entry on the 1861 census for Peter Dillon (Dunning) yet another spelling of their name living at 24 Market Street, Greenock which is their address on other census records. He was born around 1811 in IRELAND and was a labourer in a shipbuilding yard. His wife Sarah b. 1808 IRELAND
daughter Elizabeth b. 1843 IRELAND and son Peter b. 1856 GREENOCK, SCOTLAND. This means that the family moved from Ireland to Scotland between 1843 and 1856 so won't be on the 1841 census.
The 1851 census shows a Matthew aged 16 but has clearly married and moved out before the 1861 census. The record states he was born around 1835 Scotland but he was obviously born in Ireland about 8 years before they arrrived in Scotland.
I feel I am getting closer but now need to find a death for Peter/Patrick.
Julie
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Don't know whether it's relevant that the 1891 census shows Hugh DINNEN of Ireland 67 sugarhouse labourer living at 55 Drumfrocher Rd Greenock.
That and your other sugar references are already on the Sugar Refiners and Sugarbakers Database at www.mawer.clara.net, but the Greenock map and sugarhouse info at www.mawer.clara.net/loc-greenock.html may be of help.
Bryan
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Thanks Bryan,
Yes I think Hugh Dinnen may be connected. I am looking in to it.
I have found the Sugar Refinery database very useful. The Duncan McKenzie showing on there I think they have his age incorrect. I think it is a census transcription error and it should read 26 not 76.
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Back to the Dunning/McKenzie research after a week or so trying to 'fix' my dad's side - with the help of Rootschat of course!
I was encouraged by the discovery of my great, great, great, great, grandparents living in the same street (Market Street) as my great, great, great grandparents Ellen and Duncan McKenziewere living in 1851. I dug a little further and tried a new way of researching. I don't know why I haven't done it before and all of you experienced people probably do it all of the time. I just put the addresses Market Street and Highland Close into the search without a name or date and found a Matthew Dinan (Dunning?) living at 6 Highland Close. That is right next door to where my great, great grandfather Duncan McKenzie died and his family were living prior to his death in July 1860. It states he was a General Labourer and was born in 1843 Ireland. He was living with wife Margaret and children Mary, Julia and James. I think this may be Ellen's brother. I also found a Bridget Docherty born 1806 living at McAllister's Land Market Street 26 living with husband George and children Patrick and Bridget. All born in Ireland. In another dwelling in McAllister's Land Market Street 26 I found a Nancy Docherty born 1791 Ireland Lodger. My great X 4 Sarah's maiden name was Docherty. I think these may be related in some way. I also found a Patrick Docherty living at 2 Highland Close in the 1861 census living with wife Catherine and children Margaret, Roseanne, Patrick, William, James and Dennis. The same family appear on the 1871 census living at Dalyrymple Street. I wonder if McAllisters Land Market Street and Market Street are the same place or different addresses.
This leads me to think that not only Ellen arrived from Ireland but her parents, brothers and sisters, grandparents and possibly great grandparents came too.
I still haven't found Peter Dunning death or anything about Duncan and his parents Duncan McKenzie and Isabella McGregor.
Julie
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Julie, I think all your suggestions are likely in terms of how you are looking at possible connected people. Given names and location/addresses, hopefully you can make further inroads via death certs maybe?
Monica :)
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Hi Monica and all who responded to my posts almost a year ago. You may recall I was trying to find the deaths of two of my great x 3 grandfathers. I thought I would update you on what has happened since then.
Whist researching, I quite literally stumbled upon other possible members of the family living in the same street - Market Street, Greenock in numbers 24 and 26. I have recently returned to this part of my tree and hope to find more.
Monica, you may recall you found a death registration which may have been my great x 3 grandmother Ellen Connell (nee Dunning). She was staying with her daughter and son-in law on the 1901 and 1911 census so I assumed she had moved from Scotland to live there permanently but I couldn't find a death record. The record was for Helen Connell and the age was near enough but I didn't want to risk buying the certificate for it not to me her. I have a contact who has been helping me find burial records in Sunderland so I asked him to look. I was delighted when the record came back for Eleanor Connal and the address was her daughter's which confirmed it. Ellen's name has been mis-transcribed all of her life in so many different ways. This was the proof I needed so I sent of for the death certificate and it arrived today. The cause of death was Cerebral Haemorrhage age 79 so this may mean a change in the date of birth I had or maybe they just didn't know her age. The informant was my great x 2 grandfather, her son-in-law. I also now know that her husband (3rd marriage) was to a John Connell - Stoker in Ship Yard but I have never been able to find anything about him. I did find a possible census record where he is visiting with a known relative but nothing definite. That record stated a birth 1842 in Ireland so would be a lot younger than her.
I also found the deaths of both her parents Patrick/Peter Dunning and Sarah Dunning (nee Docherty) Patrick died in 1867 at 24 Market Street from pneumonia and Sarah died in Sep 1872 from Bronchitis pleuritis also at 24 Market Street. The death records also gave a name of my great x grandfather Matthew Dunning a farmer. Sarah's doesn't give a Christian name for her father just Docherty Farm Labourer. I found a Nancy Docherty living in Market Street who I think could possible be her mother. I think that is maybe as far back as I can expect to go as that is 1700s and Irish records so hard to find. I do hope however to find more about the members of the family who came from Ireland to settle in Greenock.
I thought I had come up against a brick wall and would never break it down but thanks to you Monica and everyone else who responded to my post, I have managed to get so far.
Thank you all so very much.
Julie
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Julie, well done for working so hard and keeping going! Obsessive love we have for all of this on our lines ::) ;D Also sometimes we do the same on other people's lines too... ;)
I followed all of that and can see how you have made the steps in the research of late.
The name Ellen is open to so many variants, see www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=ellen
Monica
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Just a quick update for anyone who followed or responded to this post I started 4 years ago in particular Monica. She stayed with me whilst jumping through all the hoops to reach my objective and gave me so much encouragement and advice.
Well four years on, I am still tying up loose ends with this part of my tree but wanted everyone to know that my research, with the help of everyone here, has been proven to be correct.
I have two DNA matches who are descendants of John Dunning the brother of my great x 4 Patrick Dunning and have been in touch with them.
I started out trying to find the death records of my x2 grandfather Duncan McKenzie and x 3 grandfather John Ferries. I had found possibilities but wasn't sure. The death record for John gave the wrong age (85) when he was in fact 56. The Duncan McKenzie death record didn't match the parents I had for him in my tree but it was my tree that was wrong. Both records were correct.
I now have burial records and locations for both of them in Greenock Cemetery. John is interred with 6 others including his wife my great x 3 grandmother Mary (nee McLachlan) two sons, a daughter-in-law, nephew and an infant buried there prior to him purchasing the Lair in1858.
Duncan McKenzie was buried in common ground and unfortunately the record does no specify where but I know it is one of three areas of the cemetery.
Robert Ferries (son of John Ferries above) is buried nearby with his second wife - the first being buried in the Ferries Lair.
My great x 4 grandparents Patrick and Sarah Dunning (nee Docherty) are also buried there with John Eadie their son in law and my great x 3 grandmother Ellen Dunning's 2nd husband who died at Graving Dock together with an infant grandson (son of John Eadie and Ellen Dunning).
My great x 4 grandfather James McLachlan (father of Mary McLachlan above) is buried with his 2nd wife Isabelle (Blair) and two sons - William and James who was the husband of Jessie McIntosh of the Sandyford murder fame. Also buried with them is his grandaughter Eliza or Elizabeth aged 3 years 6 months, daughter of John Ferries and Mary McLachlan who I had no knowledge of I have a photgraph of this grave and hope to get some of the others soon.
Unfortunately, I cannot trace my great x 3 grandmother Elizabeth McLachlan (nee McClure) as she died before Greenock Cemetery opened sometime between 1827 and 1830. That is my next challenge!
I traced Duncan McKenzie's parents marriage and subsequent baptisms of him and his siblings but haven't found their deaths yet (another challenge).
It just goes to show that if your persevere and leave no stone unturned, most brick walls can be broken down.
Many thanks once again to all.
Julie
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Hi Julie
How amazing that you have found such comprehensive records for the burials on so many of the family.
Great news too that you have managed to make the DNA connections that you have.
Sounds like you are still full energy to continue.... ;)
Monica :)