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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: trixi button on Friday 07 February 14 12:10 GMT (UK)
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Hi are there any records that may show a persons ethnic background?my great grandmother Lilian May TIlls was of mixed race(she looks to be from african descent). My grandfather who also resembled his mother was told that research was done by the famiy doctor at one stage who was intrigued to findoutthe origin of the family and he told them that their striking looks were down to a lady from mexico who was descended from a runaway slave who ha :)d married into the family.Needless to say I can find no trace of this research.I do know that lilisans siblings resembled her but both her parents Charles Tills and Roseanna Durrant were born locallyas were her grandparents CharlesTills and Louisa Lee and Daniel Durrant and Elizabeth Holmes.All from Kessingland,lowestoft,barnby areas of Suffolk.Any suggestions of where i might find info would be great.
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
Can you give some idea of a timescale please and also which country were the Tills born in
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Sometimes family stories get a bit twisted- a cousin's mother told people her daughter's striking features were the result of an Eskimo ancestor on her father's side which is certainly a surprise since we have no Eskimo connections or even ancestors who lived in that part of the world ;D
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I assume this is the family?
1891 census: Class: RG12; Piece: 1492; Folio: 40; Page: 29
38 Bevan Street, Lowestoft, Suffolk
Tills, Charles Head M 36 Painter b Barnby, Suffolk
Tills, Rose Wife F 33 b Kessingland
Tills, William Son M 13 Scholar b Kessingland
Tills, Fenella Daughter F 12 b Kessingland
Tills, Percy Daniel Son M 10 b Kessingland
Tills, Rosa Daughter F 9 b Kessingland
Tills, Lilian May Daughter F 7 b Kessingland
My family story was that we had French blood?!
Closest I have found is GG Grandfather who was born in Jersey?
His family were only in Jersey for 5 years! ;D
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Yes this is the right family
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Thankyou for your welcomeand your replies.the tills family so far syeem to originate from worlingham suffolk. charles ti tills who married louisa lee was the son of william tills and mary ann green . william was the son of william tills marriedmary ann warnes.
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the marriage and Charles / Rose ages and fathers names
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NXN7-S6J
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Rose and family 1871 census
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VFNF-XJV
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Mary ann green is the only one i have not yet found family for. she married a 2nd time after thedeath of wiliam tills to a benjamin andrews.william died1835 north cove.
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Thankyou for all the information very welcome. i know stories do get exaggerated but lilian is very african looking and her hsir has been passed down to the next three generations. She married my gt grandfather john william rands known as jack in lowestoft.she was a single mother of one at the time and he was a policeman i have a photo of him in uniform. however he was made to resign for some resign. he would never tslk about it to his son and grandson and brought hid family back to live in his home village of shotley suffolk. he and lilian had 3 boys sll of who were dark complexioned and had lilians hair.my grandad was the middle son reginald robert rands born 1911.
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Hi Trixie
Is there any family story of them being in the Caribbean / West Indies?
Your Lilian's family may have come over / been brought over from there.
Many of the black people in the West Indies have African (negro) roots.
My Billy Blue who came to Australia from England (courtesy of HM Government ;D ;D ) was of West Indian descent, as far as we can tell, probably from Jamaica. I have been told by hairdressers that I 'don't have European type hair' as it is (was!) very thick and strong and curly. I also get keloid scars courtesy of this blood line. These are thick raised scars peculiar to young girls and to people with negro blood.
And of course if any of the family lived in USA years ago, official documents usually stated whether the person was white or black or 'coloured'. They may still do - I don't know.
Dawn M
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Dear Dawn
thanks so much for your reply.
yes am starting to wonder if one of lilians ancestors wad a slave brought back to england from a plantation.there are a number of large houses in the area that used to be owned by the marquis of Bristol so she may have come into the area that way. all my resrarch is leading to mary ann green born approx 1799 as she is the only one who does not have aby family that i can find so far. how far back have you traced your billy blue. where did he come from in england.
Lilians genes are very strong.yes my father had terrible trouble getting his hair cut as the hsirdressers could not cut it because of the type of hair kept giving him bald patches.his motber in law ended up cutting it after a few tries she lesrnt how to do it. i aldo inherited the hair and i have olive skin wheras my sister is blonde with blue eyes from mothers side.my fathers hair did get straighter as he got older but still had kinks.i have a picture of myself aged about 3 with a wonderful afro.
thanks again for your reply.
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Do you have any records of Lilian's siblings or parents (photos, army records etc) which might tell you whether they too had dark complexions?
In a place like Lowestoft (a port, with people arriving from all over the world) one possibility may be that Lilian's father Charles was not her natural father, and that a family story about a throwback to an exotic ancestor was concocted to save face. However, if the other Tills children were dark-skinned that would be less likely.
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Hi avm thanks had not thought of this possibility. i do know thst percy , lilians brother had the hair as did his daughter but something i will bear in mind. thanks again.
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http://revealinghistories.org.uk/what-evidence-is-there-of-a-black-presence-in-britain-and-north-west-england.html
Also consider this; http://www.mirandakaufmann.com/blacks-in-tudor-britain.html
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Thanks youngtug will certainly look these up
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Hi Trixie
My Billy Blue was tried at Kent Assizes for stealing sugar from a ship he was unloading.
we don't know where in Britain he was living, but interestingly he called his farm in Sydney "Northampton" - there is a Northampton in Jamaica (I've been there and the area looked very like the kind of scrubby bush his Sydney farm must have looked like!) and I know of at least one person by the surname Blue who is buried in Northampton, England. So maybe he lived there.
He was maybe born around 1734/5. His burial certificate says he was 99 when he died in 1834. He claimed to have fought with Gen. Wolfe at Quebec in 1759, and to have been a Marine in King George III coronation. We have been unable to prove or disprove this as there are no records existing of who 'in the ranks' was with Wolfe, or in George III's coronation guard of honour.
With regard to skin colour telling much - I'm fair with fair complexion. Some of my cousins are dark and some are fair. I used to know a family where the father was native Burmese and the mother English - they had 4 children, the first and last were quite dusky and the two in the middle had fair skin and red hair! (I know Burmese isn't African, but just an example.)
Sometimes you can tell from a blood test. One of my Blue cousins in Canada had his DNA tested a few years back and was told he had 'deep West African roots'. So apparently there is even a difference depending on what part of Africa a person originates from.
Intriguing, isn't ir?
Dawn M
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Very! Billy sounds like he had amazing eventful life.
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Harking back to aghadowey's post, I'd heard a similar "reason" given for a child born with what we would now call Down's Syndrome, to a mother over 40, when I was young. It wasn't in my family, just the child of an sort of friend of my mother, so I've no follow-up to tell if the girl was really Down's syndrome. I suppose in former generations people got all worked up about things that no-one now would be inclined to create a fanciful reason for .... would they?
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Hi Trixi I think my Great grandma Ellen Tills was your Great grandad Charles Tills sister. Her parents where Charles and Louisa.My Great Grandma died when my Grandad Lawrence Cook was only two and.the family lost contact with the Tills side of the family
My Grandads sister had the afro hair as did her children. I am.very interested in finding out more of the History.and like you have been trying to get more information. Prehapes we could help each other
Lisa
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Welcome to a Rootschat, Lisa.
Who did your Ellen marry and where? I’m not seeing a marriage Tills/Cook marriage.
Is Ellen, Fenella, as seen on the 1891 census?
Jamjar
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When and where was Lawrence born?
Ok, think I’ve got it. :-\
COOK, LAWRENCE LEONARD mmn TILLS
GRO Reference: 1887 D Quarter in MUTFORD Volume 04A Page 894
Is it, Ellen is the sister of the Charles who married Rose, as per 1891 census?
Jamjar
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Marriage:
Dec 1852 Mutford 4a 1497
TILLS Charles
LEE Louisa
1841: Louisa with folks, John and Amy: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M73S-ZZG
1851, Louisa and daughter Ellen LEE in the LEE household: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGRL-1M8
1861 Charles and Louisa: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7DP-GRK
1871 Charles and Louisa: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFNF-ZWL
1881: No Louisa: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27D-B5J7
LEE, ELLEN no mmn
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in MUTFORD AND LOTHINGLAND Volume 13 Page 532
TILLS, ANNA MARIA mmn LEE
GRO Reference: 1853 S Quarter in MUTFORD AND LOTHINGLAND Volume 04A Page 574
TILLS, CHARLES mmn LEE
GRO Reference: 1854 D Quarter in MUTFORD AND LOTHINGLAND Volume 04A Page 566
TILLS, HARRIET mmn LEE
GRO Reference: 1856 M Quarter in MUTFORD AND LOTHINGLAND (227) Volume 04A Page 673
TILLS, BENJAMIN mmn LEE
GRO Reference: 1857 S Quarter in MUTFORD AND LOTHINGLAND Volume 04A Page 623
TILLS, WILLIAM mmn LEE
GRO Reference: 1860 J Quarter in MUTFORD AND LOTHINGLAND Volume 04A Page 681
TILLS, ISAAC JOHN mmn LEE
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in MUTFORD AND LOTHINGLAND Volume 04A Page 723
TILLS, ALBERT EDWARD mmn LELI
GRO Reference: 1863 J Quarter in MUTFORD AND LOTHINGLAND Volume 04A Page 721
TILLS, ARTHUR mmn LEE
GRO Reference: 1865 M Quarter in MUTFORD AND LOTHINGLAND Volume 04A Page 738
TILLS, MARY ANN AMY mmn LEE
GRO Reference: 1866 S Quarter in MUTFORD AND LOTHINGLAND Volume 04A Page 644
TILLS, WALTER WILLIAM mmn LEE
GRO Reference: 1868 M Quarter in MUTFORD AND LOTHINGLAND Volume 04A Page 699
1891 Father Charles with Ellen Cook: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:4F53-RZM
Deaths:
Dec 1871 Mutford 4a 487
TILLS Louisa 44
Dec 1899 Mutford 4a 669
TILLS Charles 70
Christening has mother of Louisa as Emma, but 1841 census has mother as Amy:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NRM2-YVN
Her brother George has Amy on christening:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J9S1-CKS
Death of Amy:
Sep 1850
LEE Amy Mutford 13 357
Jamjar
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My Great Grandma died when my Grandad Lawrence Cook was only two.
Now the problem with that which I have posted in the previous post is, if this is the correct connection, Ellen is still alive when Lawrence is 3 and there is a 1 year old brother in 1891.
COOK, LAWRENCE LEONARD mmn TILLS
GRO Reference: 1887 D Quarter in MUTFORD Volume 04A Page 894
COOK, AUGUSTUS LEE mmn TILLS
GRO Reference: 1890 J Quarter in MUTFORD Volume 04A Page 901
Lawrence with three siblings on the 1901: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSVD-9S4
Her death?:
Sep 1893 Mutford 4a 592
Cook Ellen Lee 42
Marriages:
Sep 1876 Mutford 4a 1113
COOK William Henry
TILLS Ellen
Sep 1896 Mutford 4a 1733
COOK William Henry
ALDOUS Emma
William with second wife and children from both marriages, 1901:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSV8-B9D
Jamjar
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I assume this is the family?
1891 census: Class: RG12; Piece: 1492; Folio: 40; Page: 29
38 Bevan Street, Lowestoft, Suffolk
Tills, Charles Head M 36 Painter b Barnby, Suffolk
Tills, Rose Wife F 33 b Kessingland
Tills, William Son M 13 Scholar b Kessingland
Tills, Fenella Daughter F 12 b Kessingland
Tills, Percy Daniel Son M 10 b Kessingland
Tills, Rosa Daughter F 9 b Kessingland
Tills, Lilian May Daughter F 7 b Kessingland
1911, including married Fenella: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7GB-VNB
1911, husband of Fenella and two children: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7GB-VLZ
Marriage:
Jun 1901 Mutford 4a 1942
TILLS Fenella
WOOLNOUGH Frederick William
BMD:
WOOLNOUGH, DOROTHY FENELLA NICOLE mmn TILLS
GRO Reference: 1901 D Quarter in MUTFORD Volume 04A Page 1140
Dec 1950 Fakenham 4b 828
WOOLNOUGH Dorothy F N
POTTER Arthur W
Jun 1977 N WALSHAM 10m1467
POTTER Dorothy Fenella N 30AU1901
WOOLNOUGH, FREDERIC CHARLES mmn TILLS
GRO Reference: 1903 S Quarter in MUTFORD Volume 04A Page 1197
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/189773818/frederick-charles-woolnough
WOOLNOUGH, ALAN REGINALD mmn TILLS
GRO Reference: 1906 M Quarter in MUTFORD Volume 04A Page 1192
WOOLNOUGH, GRACE LILIAN mmn TILLS
GRO Reference: 1910 M Quarter in MUTFORD Volume 04A Page 1083
Dec 1914 Samford 4a 1068
Woolnough Grace L 4
WOOLNOUGH, JOHN VINCENT mmn TILLS
GRO Reference: 1912 J Quarter in MUTFORD Volume 04A Page 2089
Jun 1941 Holderness 9d 197
WOOLNOUGH John V 29
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/59972608/john-vincent-woolnough
Deaths:
Mar 1925 Mutford 4a 1294
TILLS Charles 70
Jun 1938 Lothingland 4a 1205
TILLS Rose A 80
Jun 1958 Sittingbourne 5b 705
WOOLNOUGH Fenella 79
Graves:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/125516004/fenella-woolnough
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/125516006/frederick-william-woolnough
Jamjar
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Prehapes he was three and not two
The brothers and sisters you quoted are definitely his brothers and sisters as my dad Lawrence Graeme Cook has verified (he is 100 by the way)
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Prehapes he was three and not two
The brothers and sisters you quoted are definitely his brothers and sisters as my dad Lawrence Graeme Cook has verified (he is 100 by the way)
He was between 5 and 6 when mother died. ;) His birth is registered in the December quarter of 1887 and his mother’s September quarter 1893.
Wow, 100 is cool.
Jamjar
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He had a sister they called Weeza I'm thinking short for Louisa she was the one with the afro hair.I have gone back quite a way on the Tills side to Jonh Tills and Sarah Mapes I think it is 3 generations from Charles and Louisa but then get stuck.
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The unique thing is I married an African American a d have 2 Children who are interested in finding the Ancestry on my side too
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As Ellen was born pre-marriage of Louisa to Charles - there being no indication that Charles Tills is the father of Ellen - the ‘Afro hair’ would be coming from Ellen and, therefore, the LEE side.
It also means that your father may not of the Tills bloodline, but of Lee (mother) and unknown (father).
Jamjar
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Oh or who ever was the father I guess?
I didn't realise. Would the father be named on the birth certificate ?
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Wow this is really interesting!
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I’ve got myself totally confuddled now. :o
Trixi says her ancestor Lilian May Tills, daughter of Charles and Roseanna, was dark-skinned. So, for that family it’s either from Tills or Durrant.
Jamjar
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But Charles is still Ellen's half brother so Louisa Lee is still both their Granma is that right?
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Christening for Ellen with father Charles ;):
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JWVY-W5J
Jamjar
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Prehapes they had her before they married!
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They christened 5 children on the same day. I’ve added more births to the previous post. Maybe Charles gave his name as father for Ellen for consistency, or yes, he could be the father.
Jamjar