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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Forfarian on Friday 07 February 14 14:05 GMT (UK)
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John Paterson Hogg was born in Larbert in 1859 and died in Glasgow in 1933. He was variously described as a lawyer and solicitor. He married first Christina Morrison Bruce (1858-1890) and had three children. Apart from a death certificate for their daughter Isabella (b 1883, married and outlived Arthur Samuel Rice 1893/4-1942), I have all the relevant birth, marriage, and death certificates and census information about them.
Some time after the 1891 census, John married Dorothy Phillips. According to the 1911 census, Dorothy was aged 47, born in England, and had been married 17 years. Their son James was aged 11, born in England. I have not found a marriage record. Nor have I found a birth record for the son, James Augustus Paterson Hogg, or a listing in the 1901 census.
James Augustus Paterson Hogg died in Edinburgh in 1973, and his death certificate says that he was born on 26 January 1900. He married Mary Craig Wallace in 1963, and I have Mary's birth, marriage and death certificates. However he was also previously married to a Margaret, surname unknown, and all attempts so far to find a marriage record have been unsuccessful.
He too was a lawyer. He was a partner in a legal practice in Glasgow in 1926, and in a firm in Edinburgh between 1957 and 1965. He served a short service commission in the HLI and was promoted Lt on 1st Nov 1948 with seniority 24th Aug 1939 (I don't really understand this either!)
Can anyone suggest where I might find
- the marriage record of John Paterson Hogg and Dorothy Phillips
- the birth record of James Augustus Paterson Hogg
- the marriage record of James A P Hogg and Margaret
- the death record of Isabella Chalmers Bruce Hogg or Rice?
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Hi
There is a marriage to a Mary Phillips in St Andrews Church, Fulham on 8 Jan 1894. He is a 34 year old widower, solicitor of Larbert . Father James Hogg builder. Mary is 30 and a spinster of 10 Fairholme Road . Father Ralph Phillips solicitor. The image is in the London marriages collection on a*cy.
William
Should have written Ralph Phillips gentleman.
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Thank you, MILLMOOR. I had noted that marriage on FreeBMD but discounted it on the grounds that Mary and Dorothy are rather different, but with those details, it looks as if it must be right. I'll follow it up.
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Thanks also from me, MILLMOOR! I had a possible marriage for a Dorothy Phillips and James Patterson Hogg in 1899 from FreeBMD Index that I thought might have been them. Just goes to prove how important it is to see the original certificate.
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...He served a short service commission in the HLI and was promoted Lt on 1st Nov 1948 with seniority 24th Aug 1939
A mention here from 1919 www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31282/supplements/4688/page.pdf - may explain his WW2 involvement.
Ah, just found his WW1 service papers. Enlisted August 1918, James A P P Hogg, a student (Glasgow Uni?), living at Abercorn Rothesay (gosh he was tall for the times at 6ft+!). As mentioned, his birth year shows as 1900 (he shows as aged 18 plus 7mths, with an enlistment early August 1918 fits with that Jan 1900 birth date). His father is given as NOK (had mother died by now?).
Was James A P P the only son from the marriage going by the 1911 entry?
...According to the 1911 census, Dorothy was aged 47, born in England, and had been married 17 years. Their son James was aged 11, born in England...
Monica
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- the death record of Isabella Chalmers Bruce Hogg or Rice?
Am I right in thinking that a daughter Phyllis b. 1912 married a Colin Campbell Horsfall from England?
5-- Isabella Chalmers Bruce HOGG-791 (1886- ) Broomage Knowe,Larbert,STI,SCT
sp-Arthur Samuel RICE-859 (1886-1942) ,Dundee,ANS,SCT
6-- Phyllis RICE-672 (1912- ) ,,,SCT
sp-Colin CAMPBELL-HORSFAL-671 (1910- ) ,,,ENG
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hogg/families2.html
Due to lack of Scottish death for mother Isabella, wondered whether she died in England? This entry fits well:
Isobel Chalmers B Rice b. 31 Jul 1886/aged 84. Reg date Sep 1970 in Wandsworth London. Vol. 5e, pg. 1378
Monica
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- the marriage record of James A P Hogg and Margaret
A guess only, from what I am seeing from general searches.
A marriage between a James Hogg and a Margaret Byrne in Blythswood Glasgow in 1934
A death for a Margaret Byrne/ Hogg in Edinburgh in 1950. I think there may be a problem with the age recorded...shows likely blank?
Monica
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Just downloaded his service records - thanks Monica.
Forfarian will probably be able to confirm your other queries.
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Am I right in thinking that a daughter Phyllis b. 1912 married a Colin Campbell Horsfall from England?
Yes. That tree is one I submitted many years ago. I don't actually know where they were married, but I do know that Colin had a second daughter by a Japanese wife, Itsuko Sekiguchi, and died in Japan in 1970. Phyllis died in London in 1996, and her death listing gives her DoB as 4 September 1914, but again I don't know where she was born. Her father Arthur Samuel Rice was half Greek and born in Smyrna/Izmir, which is now in Turkey.
Thank you for all the other pointers. I will follow them up.
Was James A P P the only son from the marriage going by the 1911 entry?
Yes.
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A marriage between a James Hogg and a Margaret Byrne in Blythswood Glasgow in 1934
I have actually looked at every marriage of a James Hogg to a Margaret in Scotland between 1916 and 1963. This James H was an iron works labourer, the son of John H, iron tube screwer, and Janet Longmuir.
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Forfarian, you are very thorough always so just asking the obvious questions really!
Re James Augustus b. 1900, have you checked for wills & testaments to check for any mention of any children (are you expecting children from his first marriage?!). Death notices, etc? Guess nothing of note to help you in respect of who the informant was to his death?
Any addresses for him through the later years to help you check for voters rolls etc?
Monica
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Further details here www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=65702911 and www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2843735/RICE,%20ARTHUR%20SAMUEL
Sure you have this, just the gathering of data here with the family details.
Monica
Added: Much better photo here from RC member apanderson http://scottishwargraves.phpbbweb.com/scottishwargraves-ftopic229-0.html From Anne's photo, likely only daughter from this marriage? Line right at the bottom.
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I have yet to check for a will - it's something that has to be done in the NAS. And that will have to wait until I find my reader's ticket, which I carefully put somewhere so safe before I went to New Zealand that I now can't find it :(
I have seen and photographed the stone in Larbert Kirkyard. Major Rice actually died on Larbert golf course of a heart attack, not on the field of battle. There was only ever the one daughter. My mother and her cousin both knew the Rices quite well, though they lost touch later on. Phyllis was their second cousin, and I have family albums with photographs of all of them.
The informant on J A P Hogg's death certificate was a friend, Dorothy Ramsay.
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Update: I just searched for given names James Augustus, no surname, birth in March quarter on 1900. Lo and behold, there is a birth of James Augustus P Paterson in Scarborough! So I have e-mailed the North Yorkshire registrars to ask them if this is indeed James Augustus Paterson Hogg. I would also like to ask if the birth has been incorrectly indexed ???
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1st of me reading this thread but can feel the shock & excitement ;D
Isn't it a great feeling when determination takes over & wins ???
You're lucky Forfarian where the middle name Augustus is concerned.
With such a long name he could easily have been recorded with only the initials of the middle names.
Annie
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You're lucky Forfarian where the middle name Augustus is concerned.
With such a long name he could easily have been recorded with only the initials of the middle names
Also, lucky that he was born when the England and Wales indexes do include the full name.
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I daresay you have seen this, Forfarian, but the Groindexes have his name as James Augustus Phillips Paterson and mother's maiden name as Phillips. (Sacrborough Jan- Mar 1900).
William
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Yes, thanks, William. I got a very carefully worded reply from the North Yorkshire registrar saying that the father's name on the birth certificate of James Augustus Phillips Paterson does not match the information I supplied. So I have ordered a copy of it from the GRO to see what it does tell me.
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Well, the certificate has arrived. Born 26 January 1900, James Augustus Phillips, son of John Paterson, boarding house keeper, and Dorothy Paterson, formerly Phillips. They took a long time to register the birth - on 8 March. So I am in no doubt that it's them, but why were they calling themselves Paterson? And why was John Paterson Hogg, solicitor from Larbert, running a boarding house in Scarborough?
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I wonder if this has any relevance?
Isobel
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Also from Glasgow Herald 20/10/1894 List of Scotch Bankrupts.
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Therefore is a report of the sequestration proceedings in Glasgow Herald 16 Nov 1894 page 4, which gives a lot of background info. You should be able to view this via google newspapers
Isobel
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Wow! Thank you, That is very convincing. His obituary in 'The Scotsman' makes no hint of that.
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Interesting again. The warrant for the arrest of John Hogg on the forgery charge was issued in January 1895, according to another article in the Glasgow Herald. This could certainly account for him being in Scarborough under an assumed name in 1900, but in that case why did he return to Glasgow where he was arrested in 1907?
Try as I will, I cannot find them in 1901 in Scotland, England, Wales or Ireland ???
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In his position he was probably hiding behind the curtains with the lights out ::) ;D
Annie
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What a great find by Isobel W and very interesting developments!
If you have not come across it in the newspaper archive The Falkirk Herald 27 April 1907 is worth looking at as there is some detail. " He did not know the nature of the charge preferred against him until the indictment for the present trial had been served against him". He denied that James Potter, a prosecution witness who stated that he saw him forging the signature, was ever in his employment Another witness, George Ryall, "related a conversation which he alleged had taken place between Potter and himself,in the course of which Potter had said that Hogg had not adhibited Luke's signature but that he (Potter) knew who had forged it. The jury by a majority returned a verdict of not guilty".
William
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Thanks, William. I have found quite a lot of articles in the Glasgow Herald, but not, so far, any account of the court case or anything in any other newspaper.
.... I can't get into the BNA this morning. Does the article in the Falkirk Herald say what the date of the trial was? If so I can look for a report in the Glasgow Herald.
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Article in the Greenock Telegraph 12 April 1907 " John Hogg, writer,...... appeared at a pleading diet at Glasgow Sheriff Court yesterday".
Articles re the verdict in the Greenock Telegraph and The Scotsman 26 April 1907 and the aforementioned Falkirk Herald,which has the most detail of the three, 27 April 1907.
So presumably The Glasgow Herald should have something about it on these dates.
William
Added Glasgow Herald 26 April 1907 Page 11 is the same article reproduced in The Falkirk Herald the next day.
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Thank you again, William. I have now transcribed the Glasgow Herald and Scotsman articles.