RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Waterford => Topic started by: bmk923 on Friday 07 February 14 17:46 GMT (UK)
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I've hit a brick wall on my Lalor side of the family. Mary Lalor (born 1861) is my 3rd great grandmother. Her marriage certificate to John Lawless in 1887, identified her father as Walter Lawlor, he was deceased and was a farmer.
After working off of Roots Ireland, I found a bunch of baptism records with Walter Lalor and Anne Madden as well as a Mary Madden. At first I thought it was the same woman, but come to find out there were two Walter Lalors during that time period who had children with a female last named Madden. One being Ann Madden, then the other Mary Madden
1855: Walter Lalor & Mary Madden were married in Co. Waterford
1860: Walter Lalor & Ann Madden were married in Co. Waterford
Civil Death Lalor Walter 1872 61 Co. Tipperary
Civil Death Lawlor Walter 1868 48 Co. Tipperary
So at this point, I feel like I'm going in circles because now I can't pinpoint which Walter Lalor my Mary is the daughter of. I'm not sure if both Walter's were farmers. The Walter Lalor that died in 1872 was a farmer and the informant was Ann Madden Lalor.
Can anyone else shed some light on the definite kids of Walter Lalor & Ann Madden? Specifically their daughter Mary? Because two Mary's were born only months apart in 1861.
Both Lalor families resided in Clonmel at the same time period.
From what I have gathered, Walter & Mary Madden had these kids:
Ann: 1856
Ellen: 1857
Brigid: 1859
Mary: 1861
Margaret: 1863
Catherine: 1865
John: 1867
Honora/Norry: 1869
Walter & Anne Lalor had:
Mary: 1861
Thomas: 1864
Richard: 1867
Ann: 1869
Most of the records I have found have been in the Co. Waterford. But I do know the family resided in Clonmel.
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Looking at extracted Irish births, etc.-
Walter La(w)lor & Mary Madden-
? Bridget (1859) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N725-VTG
? Ellen (1862?) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N7FG-72R
Catherine (1865) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F516-NFJ
"0657,KILSHEELAN,TIPPERARY,IRELAND
John (1867) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5JY-H6D
"KILSHEELAN, TIPP, IRE"
Norry (1869) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPYQ-LJY
"683, KILSHEELAN, TIPP, IRE"
Walter Lawlor & Ann/Nancy Madden-
Thomas (1864) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRWY-84B
"0694,KILSHEELAN,TIPPERARY,IRELAND"
Richard (1867) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FR3V-PB5
"0743,KILSHEELAN,TIPPERARY,IRELAND"
Ann (1869 Co.Tipperary) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FP69-TFL
Birth certificates for any of the children born after 1864 will list father's occupation as well as exact place of birth). the numbers before Kilsheelan are the page numbers in the register. If you are not sure how to find the details in the civil registration index needed to order the certificates just let us know and it will be explained to you.
Most, if not all, of the above were registered in Kilsheelan district (which may the the sub-district) which seems to be in Tipperary (think should be Clonmel Poor Law Union/Registration district) so this might be better moved to Tipperary board?
If either Walter Lalor left a Will then children listed might help sort the two families out a bit but I didn't find anything in the online index-
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/search/cwa/index.jsp
Added- duplicate post on Tipperary board-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=676815.new#new
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"If you are not sure how to find the details in the civil registration index needed to order the certificates just let us know and it will be explained to you."
Yes please I need it explained to me.
I just found a Mary Lalor who died on 7/30/1894 who was a Farmers Wife (Widow) and the informant was Nora Lalor. Mary Lalor was 65 years old. They resided in Clonmel. Could be my Mary Madden Lalor, but no idea how to get that definite answer.
I have a Mary Lawlor born 3/6/1861 and a Mary Lawlor born 8/17/1861. Mary born in March is the daughter of Walter & Mary, and the Mary born in August is the daughter of Walter & Ann/Nancy. Just hope I can figure it out!
(and I also posted it in the Tipperary board as Clonmel boarders both TIpperary and Waterford)
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If you really need to post in 2 separate counties then it's best to link the threads (and sometimes lock one) to avaid needless confusion and duplication.
The details needed to order a birth certificate are: name, year (quarter if applicable), registration district, volume and page numbers. Do not include film & image numbers (they are LDS references). The index is here (4th one down)-
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1&countryId=1927084
Type in first name & surname then click on 'any' under life event and put in Clonmel. Fill in nothing else and click on search. Now you can use the options on the left to narrow down the possibilites (if you try to do this from main search page often no results show), so pick 1800s then 1860s for example. Since you've got some page numbers already this will help match up children to the correct certificate.
However, there's always the danger that the 2 Walters are related and living in the same townland and having the same occupation.
These are the details that will appear on a birth certificate:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=433041.0
See here for ordering certificates from GRO, Roscommon:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=599538.0
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Thank you!
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Ok I went and purchased some certs today....
Ok these two Walter Lawlors have to be related some how. I’ve been staring at these records for the last 30 minutes.
1. Walter Lawlor born around 1820 – 3/19/1868. Address: Poulnagunoge St. Mary’s. Occupation: Small Farmer. The informant on his death notice was Walter Lawlor.
2. Walter Lawlor born around 1810 – 11/18/1872. Address: Poulnagunoge St. Mary’s. Occupation: Small Farmer. The informant on his death notice was Ann Madden Lawlor.
The Walter Lawlor who married Ann Madden in 1860, the witness was Walter Lawlor.
These are all the women married to Walter Lawlor in the Waterford/Tipperary
25 credits Church Marriage Cahil Johanna 1801 Co. Waterford
25 credits Church Marriage Mahony Mary 1840 Co. Waterford
Already Viewed Church Marriage Kelly Alice 1846 Co. Waterford
25 credits Church Marriage Kelly Johanna 1846 Co. Tipperary
25 credits Civil Marriage Madden Mariane 1855 Co. Tipperary
Already Viewed Church Marriage Madden Mary 1855 Co. Waterford
Already Viewed Church Marriage Madden Ann 1860 Co. Waterford
25 credits Church Marriage Madden Anna 1860 Co. Tipperary
I purchased the Johanna Kelly and Mary Mahony marriage cert. They both married a Walter Lawlor in Powerstown. Mary must have died, then he married Alice/Johanna. Now whether there’s any relation to the Walter Lawlor I'm looking for, I’m not sure. But its worth looking into as someone may have a family tree out there on these woman and a Walter Lawlor.
Is Powerstown close? I'm just at a loss as there are so many Walter Lalors now and its getting confusing. Could it be father and son?
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http://www.mapquest.com/maps?address=Powerstown+Road&city=Clonmel&country=IE
Powerstown Clonmel map on link
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Powerstown is about 3 miles north west of clonmel, Poulnagunoge St. Mary’s is in waterford county, but only about a good spit outside Clonmel, the river Suir runs through the town, on its north bank is county Tipperary, on its southern bank is county Waterford, however and I'm hoping not to confuse you further, Kilsheelen parish, and st Mary's Clonmel both serve portions of both counties, hence the births, marriages, and deaths could be registered in Clonmel tipperary, but those recorded could have been living just across the river in county waterford.
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So The Walter Lalor death record where I stated he died in 1872, Ann Madden was the informant. If you look at the record, the Walter Lalor who died in 1868, a Walter Lalor is the informant. If you look at the death records side by side, they are living at the same address. Another interesting thing is the marriage record between Walter & Ann, a Walter Lalor is the witness. They couldn't have been father and son as the ages are off. They are only like 10-12 years apart.
One of the Walter Lalors had a father Walter who was a farmer. His siblings were Jeremiah, Margaret and Mary.I know Poulnagunoge was small back then, so all of these people have to be related. The question is, now my 3rd great grandmother, who was her mother. Mary Madden or Ann madden? I'm not sure I'll ever really know. Its so confusing since both Walter Lawlor families at that time went to the same church.
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Back to the 2 death records for a moment-
1) "Ann Madden informant"- does it say she was his wife? if not, she could be a daughter, mother, sister, etc.
2) "they are living at the same address" yes, living same townland or street but doesn't mean same house
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No it just lists her name as Ann Lalor. I'm taking it as his wife, as he had a wife Ann (Nancy). She then remarried a few years later.
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Poulnagunoge is just over the county boundary between Tipperary and Waterford. But they were literally on the Mountain overlooking Clonmel Town (Poulnagunogue is a little road off to the right as you drive up the "Mountain Road" out of Clonmel). Therefore they are registered in Co. Waterford for things like Deaths and Griffiths Valuations but marriages, baptisms etc were all done in Clonmel.
Many of the families in that area are still there since at least 1800. My uncle still lives there with many of the same fields you can see his great grandfather had in 1850. In fact in 1800 my great great grandfather was born and his birth record shows Catherine Lalor as his mother. Today my uncle's neighbours are still the Lawlors and we are considered related (eventhough it goes back to 1800).
Therefore if the Lawlors were there since at least 1800 and you are looking at records for the Lalor's in Poulnagunoge in the 1850s-70s and finding the same names you could well be looking at cousins who have the same firstnames because they are family names. I do recall my father talking about people in the area and referring to them by nicknames and he told me that was because they had the same names so nicknames were used to identify them. I'm pretty sure that was the Lawlors.
Therefore you may not be able to make sense of the records from a distance because the names and addresses will be so similar and the family have been in the area for so long. But it is not all bad news. You may be able to contact some of the Lawlors still living there and see if they can make sense of it all for you.
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84 Poulnagunoge st. marys waterford Mary & John with family John a Tailor.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie