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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: Solway on Saturday 08 February 14 20:52 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone please assist with information on the above change of family name which I believe was
recorded in the Dunfermline press on 30 Sept.,1863?
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Hi Solway
Sorry, more info is needed if you need assistance or comments :-\
Douglas to Drysdale is not to be expected. More info needed for people to be able to try to help I would think...
The majority of people will have no access to the Dunfermline Press unfortunately.
Monica :)
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There is an article in the Dunfermline Press on that date called The Origins of the Drysdales of Dollar. That is all that comes up from a search of Drysdale or Douglas. You could get the article either from the British Newspaper Archive( Register and they let you have a few free credits.) or from FindMyPast again using credits.
William
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Can anyone please assist with information on the above change of family name which I believe was
recorded in the Dunfermline press on 30 Sept.,1863?
This is the story that I always hear about the origin of my family name:
http://cdsna.squarespace.com/drysdale/
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The article in the Dunfermline Press of September 30 1863 tallies with the story quoted in the link supplied by skida. In addition it mentions the names of individuals who have preserved and copied this story.
Dod
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''This is the story that I always hear about the origin of my family name:''
http://cdsna.squarespace.com/drysdale/
''It should be noted, however, that the following story does not account for the genesis of the name Drysdale but only for the connection of Drysdale to the House of Douglas.'' Harold Eddington points out on the Clan Douglas Society of North America Page
the genesis of the name Drysdale no one knows the date , however there are records that predate this story Hugh of Dryfesdale was recorded in 1274 on the quitclaim of the lands of Todrig , Recorded in Latin , with plenty of witnesses , look on the POMS site , also court records listed Gawaine and John Dryfesdale and 4 others were granted a Royal pardon in 1489 by the King for charges of what boiled down to treason , The name Drysdale [ how ever you want to spell it ] was already in use in 1503 we have all read the same story , with the title claiming ''the creation of the Drysdale family'' , that is nothing but road apples , pure and simple road apples
No Douglas ''created'' my family , what they did ''create'' was trouble for their self , and then they merely used our name to not have any more trouble , if there is any truth to the document at all.......
Also I wonder why the Johnstones have no record of this beef with their own spin on it ?. if they do I havent found it yet ....
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No Douglas ''created'' my family , what they did ''create'' was trouble for their self , and then they merely used our name to not have any more trouble , if there is any truth to the document at all.......
Also I wonder why the Johnstones have no record of this beef with their own spin on it ?. if they do I havent found it yet ....
I am aware of the earlier existence of our name, and my above post was a response to the question posted about the name change.
Since first reading the story of the errant Douglas family I have spent many spells trying to find supporting evidence, and other than the Drysdale name springing up in the Clackmannan, Dollar and Dunfermline area, there doesn't seem to be anything to be found.
Looking first at the story:
I have looked at many old maps, some about 300 years old, and after scouring the length of the River Dryfe and its valley, I found no trace of Brushwood Haugh or Greenstone Hill. If they existed, at the time of the story the chances are that at least one of the names would have survived until the late 1700s/early 1800s. There was nothing similar to be found anywhere on the old maps.
By 1503, Edinburgh had been established as the capital, yet the story mentions that a record of the fracas had been carried to the king and of the tocsin being sounded. I assume that a journey from Dryfesdale to Holyrood would have taken some time back then, and for a Royal Decree to be brought back, we would probably be talking about 4 to 7 days. The story reads as though the situation developed maybe overnight.
So what happens when these Douglas brothers decide to flee from the King's wrath? They head northeast towards Edinburgh and then into a part of Fife that would be on one of the routes from Edinburgh to Stirling Castle. The story in fact mentions the King passing through on just such a journey.
On the balance of probabilities, I think the story may have been wildly exaggerated or even totally fabricated.
However: It is true that a strong branch of the Drysdales sprang up in Clackmannan/Dollar area and this is where my family came from.
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skida ,
Give me a holler ,in re: William Drysdale and Helen Renny my email (*)
'' WILLIAM DRYSDALE , servant in Easter Gellet and Helen Renny , his spouse had a son , born April 28th , 1748 , baptized May 13th by the foresaid Mr. Ralph Erskine . Named John ; Whitness , John Anderson , farmer in Wester Gellet , and Alexander Strouth , weaver there . ''
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Brushwood Haugh. I've looked for this too and haven't been able to find it on old maps. A long time ago, before I was even in my teens, we were in Lockerbie and my dad visited the local library for information. They sent him eastwards to the rivers Corrie and Milk. There was a 3rd river mentioned but I can't remember it. Sorry, I don't know where they got this info from or exactly what it was. Old farm maps? County maps?
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russellynndrysdale: I hollered back on the PM (My Messages above).
PandaBud: I did find places called Johnstone Mills and Johnstone Bridge on the River Annan, but this seems a little outside of Dryfesdale. It does however confirm the name Johnstone in the larger area.
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I was looking at mills on the Water of Milk that had sluice channels. At least one of them is a listed building, over 200 years old and may have been there longer. But that's making guesses, couldn't see or find anything definite. For Johnstones in the area look up the battle of Dryfe Sands. They were one of the big families in the region.
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Although indirect, perhaps there is evidence here which supports the connection that some Douglas family members adopted the Drysdale name on or about 1503, and there was an association with the geographical location Brushwood Haugh. There are a great number of Scottish place and family names which have been used in Johannesburg, South Africa. Apparently, one of Johannesburg's suburbs was named, Brushwood Haugh. Within this area are the roads Douglas and Drysdale, which intersect.
copyright image removed
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Here is the link to the map of Brushwood Haugh:
https://www.mapquest.com/south-africa/brushwood-haugh-ah-362983584
If you click on the plus sign 5 times to zoom in, you will see many uses of the names Douglas, Drysdale and Brushwood in this neighbourhood.
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Hi all
I have a Scotlandspeople image for the Testament of one William Dryisdaill of Dollar dated 1600 which I have had professionally transcribed.
There are quite a few Drysdales mentioned in this Testament:
His children - William, Symon, Johne, Jonet, Ewffame, Agnes and Cristiane Dryisdaill.
Alexander Dryisdaill in Forrest, his brother, George Dryisdaill, portioner of Balhartie & Johne Dryisdaill his servant.
Full pdfs of the will (Scotlands People copyright) and its transcription are enclosed as attachments for any with an interest in Drysdale history.
Regards
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James Drysdale, the trusted servant of William Douglas of Lochlevin
James Drysdale, who was in Lochleven Castle at the time Mary Queen of Scots was imprisoned there and who was singled out for harsh words in a letter by her in 1568/9 for saying he would like to put a sword to her heart*, had a life outside Lochleven Castle.
Source materials indicate that James was the father of William Dryisdaill of Dollar, whose will dated 1600 is shown above.
Also, the 18-4-1565 birth record of one Kirsten Drysdeill, from the Scotlandspeople website, states:
"The 18th day James Drysdeill had a woman chyld born in fornication of Margaret Donaldson alias Whyt Wyndo baptizit and callit Kirsten." - Lochlevin in margin.
So it appears he was a bit of a rascal in his private life also!
*- Mary Queen of Scots - An examination of the letters, said to be written by Mary queen of Scots - Goodall 1754
- Life of Mary Queen of Scots, Volume 2 (of 2), by Henry Glassford Bell
A copy of the Scotlandspeople image of Kirsten's birth record is copied below:
(http://)
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If we assume the story of the 3 Douglas brothers is true, that they changed their name to Drysdale which was already established in the area, what wouldn't change is their genetic marker, Douglas Y-DNA. Therefore, if a male today with the surname Drysdale took a Y-DNA test through Family Tree DNA but they were actually a descendant of one of the 3 Douglas brothers, they should get Y-DNA matches to people with the surname Douglas, and only Drysdales who were also in fact Douglas descendants.
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In my view the best critical analysis of the supposed Douglas - Drysdale name change in 1503 was written more than thirty years ago and this appeared in the February 1989 edition of The Clan Douglas Association of Australia Newsletter (copy attached).
One pertinent comment within this article "....If we could find Symon Drysdale of the 'Haugh of Dollar' this would indicate that he was the direct descendant of the three brothers, and therefore, provide some evidence to support the 1503 document...."
In a post above dated 11-8-23 (+ Testament) we can see that William Dryisdaill had a son named Symon who lived in Dollar and was alive in 1620.
Regards
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One person who would have definitely known whether there was any truth in the 1503 Douglas-Drysdale document would have been James Drysdaill, the trusted servant of William Douglas of Lochleven (and Grandfather of Symon Dryisdaill of Dollar).
James could have passed on this family story directly to Symon (or via William Dryisdaill) and could possibly have embellished it somewhat in the passing or even made the whole thing up!!
By all accounts James was a bit of a rascal.
Regards
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Why should we doubt the veracity of the 1503 document (copied below)?
(http://)
1. There are no contemporaneous records of the incident in 1503 and, bearing in mind, 15 of Johnston's men were said to have been murdered in the encounter, there should have been records of the incident and that the Douglases were declared outlaws.
2. The copies of this document in existence today were either typewritten or printed in the early to mid 1900s, the earliest genuine draft is perhaps that which was printed the in Dunfermline Press 30-9-1863.
3. The text of the document is not consistent with something that was written in Scotland 500 years ago. The style & wording are typical of something that would have been composed in the late 1700s early 1800s.
4. Some of the place names recorded in the document i.e. Brushwood Haugh & Greenstone Hill do not appear to exist.
5. The document is titled "The origin of the name Drysdale" and this suggests that prior to 1503, the name Drysdale did not exist, when in fact we know for a fact that there were families of Drysdales in the Tillicoultry area in Clackmannanshire from the early 1400s onwards.
Regards
Copy of document downloaded from:
http://www.genealogywise.com/forum/topics/the-below-could-have-possibly-been-titled-a-bit-different?groupUrl=drysdalearchives
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Hi Ronda231,
Those are excellent points regarding the "Origin of the Drysdales" document.
Best regards,
Robert
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Hi Robert,
Some further stuff to come yet:
The 1588 will of James Drysdaill of Dollar (& Lochleven) Scotlandspeople copyright, plus a full professional transcription is attached in pdf for download below.
James Drysdaill was the trusted servant of William Douglas of Lochleven & an opponent of Mary Queen of Scots.
He was involved in a number of Lochleven intrigues and following Mary's escape from the castle in 1568, threatened to put a sword to her heart.
William Dryisdaill of Dollar (post above dated 11-8-23 refers) was the son of James.
One of William Dryisdaill's sons was Symon, also of Dollar, who was reputedly a direct descendant of one of the three Douglas brothers and who was documented as being the first to record the story of the 1503 fight between the Douglas brothers and the Johnstons & their subsequent adoption of the name Drysdale (from Dryfesdale, Dumfries).
Regards
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Hi Ronda,
There are many Scottish place names in South Africa. In particular, within Johannesburg there are 2 suburbs named Greenstone Hill and Brushwood Haugh.
Best regards,
Robert
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Hi Robert,
I noted your earlier posts on this with interest and have checked out the maps. It would seem that many years ago, some Scottish Drysdale, aware of the 1503 story, was involved in the planning and naming of the roads in those Johannesburg suburbs - I also noted Douglas road, Drysdale road and Douglas crescent!
With regard to Brushwood Haugh - there is actually a Scottish equivalent in the Dryfesdale area and there is also a mill there. The Mill lies on the Water of Milk river which forms the parish boundary between Dryfesdale and Tundergarth. The Johnstones owned lands in this area (see map below) A Scottish word for Brushwood is Scrogg and Haugh is just an area of low lying land next to a river. The Mill is called Scrogg mill - see images below:
(http://C:\Users\Ron\Desktop\scroggs brushwood)
(http://C:\Users\Ron\Desktop\Scrogs mill Johnston map)
There was also a Johnstone of Greenhill (not Greenstone Hill) not too far from this mill (about 5 miles away) around that time, who had lived in that area for a long time - see image & reference below:
(http://C:\Users\Ron\Desktop\Johnstone of greenhill 1573 bond)
Regards
Reference - THE ANNANDALE FAMILY BOOK OF THE JOHNSTONES - EARLS AND MARQUISES OF ANNANDALE BY SIR WILLIAM FRASER Vol 1 1894
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Post number 1 in this thread mentioned the article in the Dunfermline press dated 30 Sept.1863, a partial copy of this is shown below.
A partial copy of the Map of Dumfriesshire by William Crawford & Son - 1840 showing Greenhill and Scrogs is also enclosed.
Finally a postcard image showing Scroggs Mill on the Water of Milk & dating from before 1917 is enclosed:
(http://)
Regards
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I see that the document received by the Dunfermline Press was typed and the place name is Greenstonhill. It would seem not unreasonable that Greenstonhill from this press document could be one and the same as Greenhill from your map. Great research to come up with all these historical documents!
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Hi Robert,
Thank you for your comments & your observation about Greenstonhill, which differs ever so slightly from the 'Greenstone Hill' that is written in other versions of the 1503 document, this is a very good point!
I think that that is one good example of how a story can evolve and change incrementally as it is passed on from person to person, also perhaps with the language being modernised as it is passed down from generation to generation.
Example:
The word 'Tocsin', as used in the document (Tocsin originated from France in the 1580s) is not one that the Brothers could have used, the likely old Scots terminology would have been 'put to the horn':
ref. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/put_to_the_horn
Verb - Put to the horn (Scotland, transitive, law, historical) To outlaw (a person) by three blasts of the horn at the Cross of Edinburgh.
Similarly, I'm pretty sure that in the 1500s, a desperate bunch of Scottish outlaws would not have used such flowery phraseology as:
"We took shelter under the shadow of the Ochil Hills in a lonely valley on the River Devon.....
..under the ope of the Ochils, and wish the name of Drysdale to flourish in the lonely valley"
Scenario - The hypothetical life of the story (based on the text printed in the Dunfermline press):
Initially, the 1503 story would have been known to the 3 Douglas Brothers and, if recorded by one of them, would have been written down in the old scots language of that time (see Johnston of Greenhill image in post above for an example of old scots language) alternatively the story could have been passed on verbally:
In 1620 it is said that Simon Drysdale of Dollar was the first to copy the story
Then Robert Drysdale of Tillicoultry copied it in 1708
Then John Drysdale of Dunfermline copied it in 1835
Then James Drysdale of Dunfermline copied it in 1838
Then John Drysdale of Montrose copied it in 1841
Then George Drysdale of Aberdeen copied it in 1845
and finally David Drysdale of Glasgow copied it in 1857
As can be seen from the above, the document/story has gone through a sufficient number of stages, in its' 5 century life, for it to have had the possibility of changing & evolving significantly from its original form!
Regards
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Strictly hypothetical. but I would venture that Simon Drysdale may have been the first to put an oral history down on paper. While the 3 brothers were still alive, the ruse of changing their name would have been negated if a written document could have been found by the authorities which incriminated them. So it would not have been prudent for them to put their story in writing. By 1620 all 3 would have been deceased and that danger of discovery would have passed.
Yes, now that you mention it, that document language is rather poetic.
I have wondered too why they didn't just charge the Johnstons a commensurate fee for entering their property for a specific purpose rather than killing them.
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Hi Robert
Your hypothetical case would make some sense.
Regarding the Douglases charging a rental fee to the Johnstons, that would have been the nice way of doing things but Scotland in that period was a bit like the American Wild West of the 1800s.
Some context for the Annandale clan feuds can be found in a publication about the Clan Dinwiddie here:
https://electricscotland.com/webclans/dtog/dinwiddie4.html
In brief, all of the Douglas lands were confiscated by the Crown sometime within the period 1455-1484 and according to Dinwiddie at around the year 1500:
".......The great estates of the last of the Black Douglases had been confiscated and during his exile in England they had been divided by royal grants among the king's favourites. Many of the Douglas lands were in Annandale and some of these had been given to the Laird Carlyle by royal Charters..........., there was no real single authority there to oversee the wild and turbulent Lairds and Chiefs, who grasped at whatever they could seize and held it by their strong hand despite royal parchments ..... So it was, that the Laird of Johnstoun had taken forcible possession of certain of the forfeited lands of the Douglas in Annandale......."
Regards
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I recently came across an old article, published in the Dollar Magazine in 1909*, which gives a slightly different viewpoint on the 1503 Douglas/Drysdale story and suggests that Lammonbie Mill on the Dryfe, may be the scene where the drama played out:
(http://)
*The Dollar Magazine March, 1909 (Vol. viii., No. 29).
I've also enclosed the full text of this article as a rtf file
Regards