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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: dave the tyke on Tuesday 18 February 14 10:20 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I'm looking for 1840s BMD information and possibly a photo of the above church. There might be records at Bradford archives which I will visit later but if anyone can add anything in the mean time it would be most appreciated.
Thanks
Dave
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The registers should be at Bradford Archives, and could well be among the collection of West Yorkshire parish registers at Ancestry. I don't have any names to check against, and the registers are a bit lacking in exact addresses, but I think they may be the ones listed as "Bradford, St James".
I can't help with a photo, I'm afraid, but Bradford Local Studies Library might be worth a try.
Arthur
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WYAS list the following churches in Bowling and/or Little Horton
Bowling - St John, St Luke (Broomfields), St Stephen and St Bartholomew (Ripleyville)
Little Horton - St John - Ancestry has St Oswald (baptisms start 1902)
The only St James listed is in Bradford. Bradford said to cover Bierley, Bolton, Bowling, Lidget Green and Undercliffe, therefore to add to the above:
Bierley - St John
Bolton - St James and St Lawrence (Bolton Woods)
Lidget Green - St Wilfred
Undercliffe - St Augustine
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I was basing my reply partly on the National Index of Parish Registers book, which lists:
Bradford St James, St James Street, Manchester Road, Bowling
Erected 1836-8
Parish created 1842 from Bradford St Peter
United with Bradford All Saints 1965
Demolished 1966
Comparing this with the West Yorkshire Archives list of parish registers, and especially the dates for which registers are available, I think this will be the one they show as Bradford, St James, with reference BDP27.
Arthur
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If that's the case, then Ancestry have baptisms from 1837, marriages from 1843 and no burials For Bradford, St James.
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Hi guys,
thanks for the replies. Arthur, the one in Manchester road is the right one. The early O/S maps show a cemetery so I think somewhere there should be burial records, possibly linked to St Peters.
One of the main records I am searching for is a baptism of Fanny Greenwood Bland who was born in Queen Street 30 Nov 1847, right next to St James church. Unfortunately, because of children born before marriages, the family used the names Greenwood, Greenwood Bland, Bland, Greenwood Barker and Barker at various times. So research has not been easy.
Anyone know if Bradford Archives has re-opened?
Dave
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One of the main records I am searching for is a baptism of Fanny Greenwood Bland who was born in Queen Street 30 Nov 1847, right next to St James church. Unfortunately, because of children born before marriages, the family used the names Greenwood, Greenwood Bland, Bland, Greenwood Barker and Barker at various times. So research has not been easy.
I can't see her in a quick look at Ancestry, but it looks as though a page of the baptism register has been left out there - it goes from 25 April 1847 at the foot of page 15 to 26 March 1848 at the top of page 17, in other words page 16 isn't there.
Anyone know if Bradford Archives has re-opened?
Yes they have, but check times beforehand as they're not open every day.
Arthur
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Thanks Arthur.
Dave
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There was two St James Church's in Bradford
http://catalogue.wyjs.org.uk/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=BD79057%2f3&pos=3
One on Wakefield road near Coventry Street Bowling Bradford (Bradford ring road)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bradfordlibraries/7203227408/
One off Mill lane (Manchester road one- It was where the Corner of Mill Lane and Nelson Street is now where a company Hire Power now stands ) at St James square (This had no burial ground but had a Mill pond at its West side)
There is a photo in WYAS Bradford taken in 1970's where this church stood, so the church was pulled down before then.
http://catalogue.wyjs.org.uk/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=BD78065%2f1%2f18%2f7&pos=16
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I think there's some confusion here...
There was two St James Church's in Bradford
Yes, but according to the WYAS Collections Guide 1 - Parish Registers (available at http://www.archives.wyjs.org.uk/archives-collections-guides.asp) these were Bradford St James, as already discussed (WYAS Ref BDP27) and Bolton St James (WYAS Ref BDP9/1).
The St James referred to here:
http://catalogue.wyjs.org.uk/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=BD79057%2f3&pos=3
appears to me to be BDP27 - and what this catalogue entry is saying is that the records of St Bartholomew (BDP10) were originally catalogued alongside those for St James. There isn't another St James.
Also, I think there's a mistake in the captioning of this photo:
One on Wakefield road near Coventry Street Bowling Bradford (Bradford ring road)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bradfordlibraries/7203227408/
I'm not very familiar with that part of Bradford, but I happened to be driving up Wakefield Road recently and noticed this prominent church. A comparison with Google street view, where the church noticeboard can be clearly seen, leaves me with little doubt that this is actually St John's Bowling, at the junction (now roundabout) with Neville Road.
Edit: scrolling down below the photo on Flickr, I see someone else has made this point.
One off Mill lane (Manchester road one- It was where the Corner of Mill Lane and Nelson Street is now where a company Hire Power now stands ) at St James square (This had no burial ground but had a Mill pond at its West side)
There is a photo in WYAS Bradford taken in 1970's where this church stood, so the church was pulled down before then.
http://catalogue.wyjs.org.uk/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=BD78065%2f1%2f18%2f7&pos=16
And this is presumably BDP27 - the St James that was originally being discussed.
Arthur
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Yes I think Arthur is right there. I think there is another St James up Bolton Road and the flicker photo is of Bowling St John's.
The Bolton St James is on the right going up Bolton Road.
I had another look at the 1851 O/S map on Old-maps and now think I might be mistaken about the cemetery, I can't make out the word or words just under where it says St James.
Dave
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I can't make out what it says on the OS map either (I think it's 1852, though, not 1851). However, neither the WYAS catalogue nor the National Index of Parish Registers mentions burial registers, so it seems quite likely that they didn't do them there. Having said that, it would be good to find an old photo of the church grounds (which look to be fairly extensive) to confirm that there is no evidence of gravestones etc. Or maybe Bradford Archives could suggest some documentary evidence that would prove it one way or the other.
Arthur
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Yes - I agree ! that is a mistake in that photo link and that church is St John
BDP10 (Unless we have 2 mistakes) As previous link
quote Related material
Originally listed with records of Bowling St James under this ref. Additional deposit (including registers) originally held at 75D95/2 (BD95075).
There seems there was St James of Bowling ? :-\
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Yes I think Arthur is right there. I think there is another St James up Bolton Road and the flicker photo is of Bowling St John's.
The Bolton St James is on the right going up Bolton Road.
I had another look at the 1851 O/S map on Old-maps and now think I might be mistaken about the cemetery, I can't make out the word or words just under where it says St James.
Dave
On the oldmaps website
The now Junction of Manchester Road and now top end of Mill lane was Moss Street then and the now Nelson Street seems to be Vulcan Street then
http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html
In the Left big boxed modern map, drag the map to Bradford, zoom in a little on Manchester Road, then arrow in on Mill lane/ Nelson street corner, above you will see 'works' arrow in just in front of the works and click on that map. Then in the right menu click on the 1891 town map and later the 1893 map- You can zoom in or out.
If you want to go a little North, West, South or East of your original fix point -reclick the 'get maps' in top menu tab and it will hold your present fix point, then select a new point as mentioned above and repeat as above.
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Yes you have got the right one now. Have a look immediately under where it says St James Church
I can't make it out but could the second word be 'cemetery' ?
Dave
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Yes you have got the right one now. Have a look immediately under where it says St James Church
I can't make it out but could the second word be 'cemetery' ?
Dave
To be honest! I don't think St James Mill lane off Manchester road had a cemetery as by 1870 the council cemeteries were being used more also there would be records of burials with , baptisms, marriages and banns in the parish registers .
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Just a thought
Being more up to date while looking at them maps -Why not link up the two railway stations of Foster square and the interchange with a tunnel while they have the chance with that big hole in-between, then build over it and take pressure of Leeds rail station. Must admit its in the realms of rocket science thinking for council people! :-\
Mind you if Hudderfield had a big hole like that ! a supermarket would have filled it by now. ;D
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Yes you have got the right one now. Have a look immediately under where it says St James Church
I can't make it out but could the second word be 'cemetery' ?
Dave
I've just had a look at St John's Bowling (the one in the mis-captioned picture already mentioned here) on the same 1852 map. That clearly shows a Burial Ground around the church, but it also has what appear to be the same words under the church's name. In this case I think it says "Per. Curacy" - this would be Perpetual Curacy, a kind of appointment in the Church of England that came about when new parishes were created out of parts of old ones (see article at Wikipedia for more details). This would fit for St James Bradford/Bowling, so I guess that might be your answer - and there's still nothing to indicate that any burials ever took place there.
Arthur
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On the 1852 map town map St John Bowling - it says burial ground the other side of the church opposite 'Per curacy' and I would think that means churchyard burial ground or cemetery. Having said that ? St John is not St James, I would think Dave, a trip to the Bradford WYAS archives or Library and get some clarity on these St James church registers
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Spot on lads,
Per Curacy looks right.
The baptism, if it exists, is what I am really looking for. I know that by 1851 Fanny had moved to her grans house at Longrigging, Warley so perhaps the baptism was in that area. Her siblings (all younger) were baptised 'job lot' at Booth Chapel, Luddenden in Jun 1861. Fanny was living with the rest of the family for the 1861 census.
Dave
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There is a burial
Sarah,BLAND,90,Widow,Queen Street,Bradford,14 July 1847 aged 90
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/YORKSGEN/2001-08/0996766033
Burial Sarah bland 15 July 1847 in Haworth (Place of worship of the family maybe) ?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J8WZ-R5S
National burial says Sarah she was 96 Haworth burial 1847
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/parish-records/burials
There were 3 Queen streets Bradford 1853 see link below
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Misc/Transcriptions/WRY/BradfordStreets1853.html
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There is a burial
Sarah,BLAND,90,Widow,Queen Street,Bradford,14 July 1847 aged 90
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/YORKSGEN/2001-08/0996766033
Burial Sarah bland 15 July 1847 in Haworth (Place of worship of the family maybe) ?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J8WZ-R5S
Possibly the same person - the Haworth register records her as aged 96 and of Bradford. The first extract (which seems to be taken from the Registrar's records rather than burials) admittedly gives the age as 90, but that and 96 could easily have got confused somewhere along the line - or maybe they weren't really sure how old she was.
Arthur
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Date of burial match within a day
That website that gave age 90 warn there could be errors over the age and number 0 and 6 look similar on old doc's
Haworth church is St James (Maybe the old lady's husband was buried there and she moved to Bradford after his death)
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-420625-church-of-st-james-haworth-cross-roads-a
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Thanks Dobbie,
I have Sarah's burial. She was buried at Bradford St Peters, the one at Haworth St Michael and all Angels is a memorial inscription on her husband's headstone (as you infer). She was 96.
I suspect that the Manchester Road Queen Street and the Bowling one are one and the same because the boundary between Little Horton and Bowling cuts through Queen Street next to St James Church.
I am convinced that this is the right one because other family records have the name Broom Fields which, again, is near St James Church.
Dave
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Haworth church is St James (Maybe the old lady's husband was buried there and she moved to Bradford after his death)
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-420625-church-of-st-james-haworth-cross-roads-a
Sorry to disagree again, but the main church in Haworth is St Michael and All Angels.
I have Sarah's burial. She was buried at Bradford St Peters, the one at Haworth St Michael and all Angels is a memorial inscription on her husband's headstone (as you infer). She was 96.
The burial appears in the register which Ancestry attribute to Haworth, though I agree that at the top of the page it says "in the Parish of Bradford". The thing is, until 1864 Haworth was a chapelry within the parish of Bradford, rather than a parish in its own right, so this is, strictly speaking, correct. Also, I've sometimes found that events which took place in one of the Bradford chapelries are copied into the main (St Peter's) registers as well, though in this case the index at Ancestry doesn't have a duplicate entry relating to St Peter's.
The very first page of the register at Ancestry (for the start of 1813) says Haworth rather than Bradford, but I don't know if that's the same book as was in use in 1847 - and I'm not going to check every page to find out! Maybe for this one you need to look at the films when you go to Bradford Archives, and/or check with the staff whether it was Haworth or Bradford.
On the face of it, it does look like a Haworth book: the page with Sarah's burial has 8 entries covering a period of 21 days - surely far too few for the main parish church - and most of them are from the Haworth area. And I've just noticed that some of the entries are signed "P. Bronte". QED?
Arthur
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Arthur,
I've had another look at my files, I have Bland burials at Haworth St Michaels and Sarah is there so it must be a copy that was sent to St Peter's.
Thanks
Dave
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According to the internet trees - Fanny Greenwood Bland circa b 1847, parents & grandparents originated from Haworth or born there with a ? mark
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Morning Dobbie,
Yes that's right, the Bland family were in Haworth at one time. The headstone in St Michaels Churchyard is quite outstanding and features crossed pistols. John Bland, Sarah's husband, and his brother were both in the Dragoon Guards for many years.
I have Fanny's birth certificate and Sarah's death certificate. Both state Queen Street. Sarah was a pauper so having her body carried to Haworth for the internment seems to imply someone had the funds.
Several members of my family were baptised, married or buried with Patric Bronte officiating. This has its own downside in that the original documentation is attractive to light fingered tourists and some has been stolen.
Dave
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Have you checked BT's at Borthwick York uni ?
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Not for this one but I have been a couple of times. I found parking was expensive for what I needed and finding the right documents wasn't easy. The staff were very helpful though. The originals often have notes by the parson that are not on the Bishops transcripts. I chased the wrong relative for years until I found the baptism record that showed in the margin he had been born 30 months prior.
Dave
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If you got Fanny's birth certificate the baptism would not be that important as info, I'm the opposite as my Granddad b 1867 (Yeh! I'm an old fa*t) by census baptism Jan 1868 was not registered for birth or I've never found a birth certificate
I park by the church in Hesslington free and 5 min walking it across the village green to the library, I think its 2 hours or maybe 3 hours free parking or the otherway on the housing estate off University road on Thief lane free parking all a day about 10 min walk by road or 6 min across the fields. (See Google maps) pick a sunny warm day though. :)
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Found this pic in a book I have about Horton Hall Bradford, think this might be the church to which you are referring?
Wend
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Here is a snapshot of the map I have showing the church location.
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Thanks Wend,
great photo, just what I wanted.
Dave
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Hi guys. This post probably comes too late to be of any use to you. You seem to have bottomed your queries. However, for what it is worth:
I can confirm that the photograph produced by Wend is indeed of St James' parish church in West Bowling/Little Horton, Bradford and is the one indicated on the map also produced.
I was born in 1950 and as a child from the mid 1950s until the early '60s I worshipped at St James. For a time, until my lack of any talent was discovered, I was a choirboy there. I was baptised at the church. My parents, my father's siblings and my paternal grandmother also worshipped there.
I can well remember the church grounds. I used to play there with the Sunday-School. At the time there were no gravestones nor any indications that there ever had been. I cannot say with absolute certainty that there was never a cemetery in the church grounds but I would be very surprised if there ever had been. I think that the reference to St Peter's Bradford would have been to Bradford's then parish church, now its cathedral. I do know that during my time with the church there were funeral services held in St James' church.
When I presented for confirmation (by which time I had moved with my parents to another parish in Bradford) I recall that I was required to prove my baptism. A little research at the time showed that the parish records for St James had been transferred to the neighbouring church of All Saints in Little Horton Lane from where I obtained the required certificate. All Saints is still a lively church but is now combined with the neighbouring St Oswald's.
I don't know if this is of any use to you. It has however jogged my memory and brought back some happy (and some sad) times.
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Hi IHM,
thanks for your reply. Since posting this topic I have viewed the baptism archives for St James and found that the records for some particular years that I need are missing (Ancestry records 1847-1851). I will now have a look at the ones for All Saints and St Oswalds.
Thanks
Dave
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hi the picture could be wrong i lived on the same square i left home in 1968 the church was still there i was in the choir for many years till my voice broke when i was about 11
i was a soloist a few times the church had no graves the spire was off long before i lived there
i have pictures of the church inside out from back and the front from about where my house was
jimcracker