RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: F C Webb on Friday 21 February 14 00:19 GMT (UK)
-
I'm trying to find out what became of Emily Harriett Norman
Born 17th June 1848 at Valletta Malta to Father: William Norman and Mother: Eliza Haynes married at Derbyshire in England on the 9th January 1845.
The mother Eliza Haynes brought her three surviving children (Jessie Norman, William Norman & Emily Harriett Norman) to Australia arriving in Melbourne November 1857 on the ship Coleroon, her husband William Norman did not come with them at the time as he was serving in the Royal Navy at Malta.
I have been able to fully trace the lives of William Norman and his wife Eliza and their children Jessie Norman (one of my paternal Great Grandmother's) and her brother William but Emily disappears from all records in Australia and the UK after her arrival in 1857.
The only lead is that one of the witnesses to Emily's brother William's marriage to Catherine McKinley at Beechworth in Victoria in 1871 was a Emily H Weir.
So there is a strong possibility that she married a Weir somewhere but this is still conjecture, can anyone shed any light on this person?
Best regards ...... Frank
-
Do you have Eliza's 1878 death certificate?
It should show living & deceased children.
NORMAN Eliza (b.LONDON) d. age 56yrs 1878 #7735
Father: John HAYNES
-
Could you please give her sister's married name as it may give a clue. Did her immediate family stay in Australia?
However, as Merlin says, the best way to get more info is her mother's death certificate which hopefully should show children and whether still living.
Judith
-
Could you please give her sister's married name as it may give a clue. Did her immediate family stay in Australia?
However, as Merlin says, the best way to get more info is her mother's death certificate which hopefully should show children and whether still living.
Judith
This looks like the sister's marriage
NORMANJessie
To WOOD David Elder
Her Birth Place MALTA
1868
# 4465
Sue
-
NSW DEATH
EMILY A NORMAN, FATHER WILLIAM, MOTHER ELIZABETH, AT PADDINGTON SYDNEY
REF# 4763/1884
Neil
-
So this would be her death?
Victoria 1930, #39
Jessie WOOD,77
Death Place: Adelaide, Victoria
Father's Name: Norman William
Mother's name: Unknown Eliza
Seems an odd annotation for the place of death but my source is not as good as the CDs.
I assume you have Jessie's Electoral roll addresses.
Jessie's death notice doesn't mention her siblings :(
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4061824
Judith
-
Seems the above Emily A Norman was born Emily H NORMAN in 1860 Sydney, so not the right one?
Odd her parents were same name?
Neil
-
Odd coincidences with this family as other births recorded to them, first in Newcastle NSW 1857 followed by 4 more.
Neil
-
I'm a bit overwhelmed by all the responses so far.
1. Yes I have both William Norman & Eliza Norman's death entries and Emily Harriett Norman is listed as living on both (Eliza died in 1878 at Beechworth & William in 1881 in Melbourne), their daughter Fanny is listed as dead and she died on Malta.
2. Jessie Norman did marry David Wood (the photographer in South Melbourne) as Judith rightly found out, Jessie Wood died in 1930 in Melbourne and is buried in the Boroondara cemetery, I have her death certificate but of course it's no help.
3. Strange that there are several other birth records with same parents names but I definitely know that Emily was born at Valletta Malta from family records but there is also an excellent British family history site dedicated to Malta that lists all the Norman births correctly and match the death certificates of William & Eliza http://website.lineone.net/~aldosliema/residents4.htm, http://website.lineone.net/~stephaniebidmead/other%20sites.htm
4. I have checked Trove but there is no mention (at least what the OCR routine has picked up) of an Emily Norman marriage that fits in the range 1857 - 1900.
5. The clue still seems to be the witness to William Norman's (Emily's brother) marriage to Catherine McKinley at Beechworth in 1871 where one witness is Emily H Weir.
6. Her Brother William and sister Jessie Wood's lives are fairly well documented but there is no mention of their sister in any newspaper notices.
7. There are several Normans' in South Australia and in particular an Emily Norman who was born almost in the same year as Emily Harriett Norman who marries a William Knightly in 1866, an excellent match except on Ancestry there are two public family trees that detail William Knightly and this Emily Norman was born in Cambridgeshire around 1846 - 1847 which matches the FreeBDM entry so not the right Emily.
Thanks for all the help so far.
-
Just a further thought I should have mentioned the Weir connection
Jessie Norman & David Wood had 13 children of which 12 survived into adulthood, Daisy Jessie Wood was one of my paternal grandmothers and one of her brothers, Hugh Alexander Wood married Elizabeth Jamieson Weir in 1916 and present as a witness to the marriage in Perth of Daisy Jessie Wood to my Grandfather James Cooper Webb in 1904 was a Mr William Hunter Weir who was also related to Elizabeth Jamieson Weir. Elizabeth Jamieson Weir was born near Bendigo to John Weir and Janet Hunter in 1884.
I have been extensively researching the Weirs in Australia and Scotland and I am receiving help from someone in the UK in the hope that this will lead to identifying a possible Weir who may have married Emily Norman, so far no one has emerged, everyone from the Weirs in Cumnock and Sorn in Ayrshire that came to Australia have been accounted for.
In the case of Emily Weirs, there are only two possibilites that I have not sought the certifctaes for as yet that may match and one died at Woonona in NSW in 1898 and the other at Northampton WA in 1946. All the other Emily or Emma Weirs in the Vic, QLD, SA BDM records do not match.
-
Do you know the whereabouts of all the Normans in between 1857 and 1871?
Neil
-
Hello Neil; I know about the lives of Jessie and her brother William, they seem to be well documented but I found absolutely nothing about Emily. When Jessie Norman married David Elder Wood in 1868 her address was listed as Clarendon Street Emerald Hill (South Melb).
This is the families arrival in Melbourne in 1857
NORMAN ELIZA A NOV 1857 COLEROON B 136 001 N
NORMAN EMILY HARRIETT 8 NOV 1857 COLEROON B 136 001
NORMAN JESSIE 4 NOV 1857 COLEROON B 136 001
NORMAN WILLIAM 9 NOV 1857 COLEROON B 136 001
-
So that is a no on the whereabouts? Have a look at this.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0y45/
Could William have been posted to Newcastle then Sydney possibly. ???
Neil
-
Thanks for the reference Neil but I have the record of the family Emily Harriett Norman being born on Malta in 1848 and the record of her arrival in Melbourne from London in 1857 so the Emily H Norman born in Sydney cannot be the same person, also Eliza was the mother's name not Elizabeth, she was baptised Eliza and in the documents that I have has always referred to herself as such.
I've really have no idea what William and Eliza where doing in Australia between arriving and dying, I hope next week to be able to look at the rent books at the Port Philip Library to see who was living where in Emerald Hill in the 1860's to 1870's as the Normans in question do not appear in the Electoral Rolls for Port Philip, the other possible source are school class records for the period but I don't hold much hope there as they are patchy and incomplete due to some being from religious based schools and others state based.
David Wood was living at the same address as his older brother John in Emerald Hill for some years so only shows up in the Port Philip Electoral Rolls in about 1873.
Emily Norman's brother William went to work on the Ovens Valley goldfields (Eldorado & Beechworth) at some stage and is married at Beechworth in 1871, the mother Eliza was committed to the May Day Hills asylum Beechworth in 1877 and dies there in 1878 so I presume she may have been there since 1871. William the brother later became a station master for the Victorian railways and lived in North Brunswick.
There is the marriage of an Emily H Norman to a William J Harding in NSW in 1900 and later her name is spelt EMILIE, I have looked at this entry some time ago and her full name was Emily (Emilie) Hester Norman and she died in 1954, her parents being William Joseph and Sarah Alice so not the one I'm looking for.
-
I've really have no idea what William and Eliza where doing in Australia between arriving and dying, F C webb
Was William Snr the plumber in Emerald Hill ?
There are advertisements for his services in the 1870's as well as an insolvency in 1873.
I note his business was in Clarendon Street which you do give as the "home address" of Jessie NORMAN at her marriage to David WOOD in 1868.
Sue
-
So that is a no on the whereabouts? Have a look at this.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0y45/
Could William have been posted to Newcastle then Sydney possibly. ???
Neil
Could the original Emily have died and then a subsequent daughter given the same name? Do you have records of any more children being born to this family in Australia? I think it would be strange if no further children were born in Australia if the parents were still living together.
-
Could the original Emily have died and then a subsequent daughter given the same name? Do you have records of any more children being born to this family in Australia? I think it would be strange if no further children were born in Australia if the parents were still living together.
Jennaya there are no death registrations in Victoria for dau Emily H and no further births to this couple either. Victorian indexes both online and CD's detail the mother's maiden name on the birth indexes and on the death indexes where known to the informant.
The OP has both the parents' death certificates which should detail all the issue of the marriage both living and deceased at the times of the parents' deaths.
F C Webb....All very speculative but may be worth following up on the following. Ages of those admitted to public institutions were often inaccurate. Information on death certificates is often scant for those who died in public institutions even if known to the staff. Informants were often hospital messengers or porters.
NORMAN Emily
Hospital record 19 Jun 1905
Birth place unknown Age 50 Occupation Unknown
Kew Asylum case books 1871-1912.
VPRS 7397/P1 15.
Compiler Marion Button Page#85
Death
NORMAN Emily
Parents unknown
At Ballarat 1907 52 years Reg#3461
Buried on 12 Jun 1907 at Ballarat Cemetery in open ground, location not known.
NORMAN Emily 52 years
Inquest Index
NORMAN Emily
1907 Ref#451
Cause Pleurisy
Cheers
Cando
-
Thanks Cando, Sparrett & Jennaya;
1. The Plumber William Norman who lived in Clarendon St South Melb was not the family William although it's uncanny that he was living in Clarendon St which is the address that Jessie Norman gave on the ledger entry for her marriage. This William Norman died in 1890 some nine years after the family William Norman and unlike my Normans there are numerous other records of his life (Port Philip Electoral Roll and Argus Newspaper entries).
(The link to William Norman Plumber death 1890
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0y5i/ )
2. I get the impression that William Norman spent most of his life away from Australia serving with the RN and only returned in the late 1870's. There are certainly no records of William & Eliza having any further children and their death certificates list only the same children that came to Australia and the death of Fanny in Malta. The informant for the death of William and Eliza was in both cases their son William.
3. I have spent much time at the North Melbourne records office examining the large original ledger books form the Ballarat & Sunbury asylums trying to find the record for the Emily Norman who died at Ballarat in 1907 but to no avail. The problem I found was that this Emily Norman's name was included on the Male index not the Female but I could not find the actual entry in either case books (there are actually about 7 case books). Her age given as 52 would place the DOB at 1855 which is a bit later but then again her true age may not have been known, I have the ledger entry for this death in 1907 and it sheds no light at all as all her details are unknown. Her brother William and sister Jessie were both still alive in 1907 and I thought that they would have known or been contacts. By the way these old asylum case books are not light reading and come complete with before and after photos of those that made it through!
4. I did not know about the Kew entry so I will follow this one up
5. I'm not confident that the Emerald Hill rate books will reveal anything as the family may have been living with someone else who is listed as the rate payer.
6. I should point out that I have also gone through the census records in the UK looking for Emily XXX born Malta without any success, there is an Emily Weir of exactly the right age whose death is registered at Medway which includes Chatham where William Norman's father John came from (the Normans were mariners). The parents of William Norman Snr were John Norman and Sarah Wilson.
Thanks for all your efforts but this is a really hard one.
The records in Australia especially Victoria & NSW are very good but not perfect, I've already traced three family members one of whom is buried in the MGC that do not show up in the Vic BDM index, not to say they are not in the original ledgers though.
-
hi
Your search has been thorough indeed ;D
Emily WEIR who died in England remains a possible as well as the Kew Asylum Emily NORMAN.
One wonders, if the Emily H. WEIR who was a witness at William's marriage was not his sister, then who was she? Have you made inquiries as to who else she may have been? It may help confirm or eliminate her from your search.
The records in Australia especially Victoria & NSW are very good but not perfect, I've already traced three family members one of whom is buried in the MGC that do not show up in the Vic BDM index, not to say they are not in the original ledgers though.
FC WEBB
Yes, I believe there are omissions from the death and other registrations. Many records seem to have not reached the registrar in early days for one reason or another.
Of course, if you are talking about memorials, not interments at a any cemetery, it is not unusual for a person to die and be be interred anywhere is the world, and yet be memorialised with family elsewhere.
Sue
-
Hello Sue;
The Emily H Weir is almost as enigmatic as the Emily H Norman!
I've gone through all the possible Emily, and Emma H Weir's without any success either, given the other Weir's in my family I'm still sure that there is a connection and Les Horn in the UK has been helping me with the Weirs but so far nothing.
I'm not one to "run up the white flag" too early and I only post on forums seeking help when I really feel I'm running out of options.
It looks like I'll just have to pay the $A31 to get a copy of the death entry for Emily Weir who died at Woonona in NSW in 1898 and failing that the Emily Weir who died at Northampton WA in 1946 (although this is a longshot) as these look like the only possibilities at this stage, there are no newspaper entries that I can find that shed any light on these Emily Weirs.
I've attached a JPEG of the Emily H Weir signature on William's marriage entry 1871 and an example of an ornamental letter H, so I'm pretty sure that the middle initial is the letter H.
-
Are you sure the surname is WEIR....doesn't look like it to me but then I am often wrong ;)
Cando
-
Could it be Wise?
-
I thought 'Wise' as well, but like cando I'm often wrong ;)
Joy
-
Me too! :)
-
There is this marriage from FreeBMD - while I don't think it's relevant I thought it worth recording;
Emily Harriet NORMAN
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1895
Registration district: Cosford, Suffolk
Vol 4a, p 1131
Records on Page:
Frederick Henry Simpson
Judith
-
Hmm ???
Here's another long shot:
Death 1907 #4882 Registered Granville, NSW
Emily LAWSON
Father's Name: William
Mother's name: Eliza
Marriage, Victoria, 1897 #863
Emily Hart WISE
Spouse Name: LAWSON Edwd Loraine
Thought it might be worth recording as perhaps "Hart" is short for Harriet :-\ - can't see any other records for either of these people though. :(
Judith
-
Perhaps I'm reading into the name "Weir" because of the possible connection through the other family Weir's but I've looked at the name carefully again and certainly the first letter is unmistakeably a W and I thought that the third letter is an "i", dotted in the same manner and location as the i in Emily, the last letter looks more like an "r" than an "e" to me also.
Nevertheless it's a good to have alternative opinions and the Wise name is something to go on especially the lead that Judith has found with Lawson.
I've come to a deadend on the Weir's in the available BDM records apart from looking into the ones I've mentioned before.
I have looked some time ago at the Emily Harriett Norman in England who married Frederick Henry Simpson in 1895 and that particular Emily was born in 1870, also the family Emily would have been aged 47 at that stage and Emily & Frederick went on still having children in 1911 by which stage the family Emily would have been aged 63.
-
Hmm I still think this is a very long shot, however....................
There seems to be some discrepancy with the surname of the man who was married in 1897 in Victoria. His name is quoted in my index (from Ancestry - not as good as the cds) as Lawson Edwd Loraine so it's not really clear as to which is his surname and which are his forenames.
There are a few references to an Edward Lawson LORAINE (LORAINE being the surname) on Trove which I'll quote in a minute however, the exciting bit is that Edward Lawson LORAINE is on the electoral rolls 1903, 1909 at Bethanga, store keeper, and guess what - another person living in Bethanga, home duties is - Emily Harriet LORAINE.
1914 there is only Edward listed at Bethanga.
Death
1915 #457
Edwd Lawson LORAINE, 81
Death Place: Bethanga, Victoria
Age: 81
Father's Name: Loraine Andrew
Mother's name: Ctina Williamson
Obit gives little more information
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/108156236
There is this very peculiar birth on my index - Scotland? Names of parents appear very mixed if this has anything to do with the Emily we are searching for.
Perhaps someone could check on the cds;
Name: Edwd Lawson Loraine
Father's Name: Wise Loraine
Mother's name: Hart Emily
Birth Place: Scotland, Victoria
Registration Year: 1897
Registration Place: Victoria
Registration Number: 863
IF the Emily we seek is the mother of this child she would be 48 so unlikely.
Then did she go to NSW and change her surname to LAWSON ??? :-\ 8)
And when did she gain the WISE surname - or was this Emily'S original surname HART??
All very convoluted and I'm still not sure this is on the right track. ::)
Judith
-
Hmm I still think this is a very long shot, however....................
There seems to be some discrepancy with the surname of the man who was married in 1897 in Victoria. His name is quoted in my index (from Ancestry - not as good as the cds) as Lawson Edwd Loraine so it's not really clear as to which is his surname and which are his forenames.
There are a few references to an Edward Lawson LORAINE (LORAINE being the surname) on Trove which I'll quote in a minute however, the exciting bit is that Edward Lawson LORAINE is on the electoral rolls 1903, 1909 at Bethanga, store keeper, and guess what - another person living in Bethanga, home duties is - Emily Harriet LORAINE.
1914 there is only Edward listed at Bethanga.
Death
1915 #457
Edwd Lawson LORAINE, 81
Death Place: Bethanga, Victoria
Age: 81
Father's Name: Loraine Andrew
Mother's name: Ctina Williamson
Obit gives little more information
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/108156236
There is this very peculiar birth on my index - Scotland? Names of parents appear very mixed if this has anything to do with the Emily we are searching for.
Perhaps someone could check on the cds;
Name: Edwd Lawson Loraine
Father's Name: Wise Loraine
Mother's name: Hart Emily
Birth Place: Scotland, Victoria
Registration Year: 1897
Registration Place: Victoria
Registration Number: 863
IF the Emily we seek is the mother of this child she would be 48 so unlikely.
Then did she go to NSW and change her surname to LAWSON ??? :-\ 8)
And when did she gain the WISE surname - or was this Emily'S original surname HART??
All very convoluted and I'm still not sure this is on the right track. ::)
Judith
I reads this way on my source.
WISE Emily Hart
To LORAINE Edwd Lawson
Her Birth Place WOOLWICH
Yr 1897
Reg 863
Sue
-
Second wife of Edward Lawson LORAINE? First wife Margaret nee CARR died 1889
The Border Morning Mail and Riverina Times (Albury, NSW : 1903 - 1920) Monday 5 December 1910
The death ocurred at Wodonga. on Saturday of Mrs. Emily Loraine, wife of Mr. H. Loraine, storekeeper of Bethanga. The deceased who was 58 years of age, had a paralytic stroke a short time ago, and the effects proved fataL The funeral, which was conducted by Messrs.Trappold and Lester, took place at Bethanga on Sunday, and was largely attended.
Appears not be Emily Harriet NORMAN as the above Emily was born WOOLWICH.
Essie
-
Apparently, no LORAINE headstones at Bethanga, but there were two WISE males buried there, namely Stephen WISE (d. 1887 aged 60y) and son Walter.
The wife of Stephen was Harriet nee HAYNES, and one child born 1860 was recorded at Beechworth.
I'm thinking Emily Harriet WISE was possibly their daughter?
Yes, death from the Index
Emily Hart LORAINE aged 58y in 1910
Father named WISE Steph
Mother named Hart Cath UNKNOWN
Reg. Number: 14760
So . . . . must have been the marriage witness in 1871?
Essie
-
Great finds Sue and Essie and these records eliminate Emily LORAIN from the search for Emily NORMAN, although it's just possible that Emily LORAIN may be Emily H WISE (if the surname is WISE!) witness at the marriage of Emily NORMAN's brother in Beechworth.
Judith
-
The wife of Stephen was Harriet nee HAYNES, and one child born 1860 was recorded at Beechworth.
And the maiden name of the mother of Emily Harriet NORMAN (The one we are seeking)
Eliza was HAYNES
So was the Harriet who married Stephen WISE Eliza's sister?
Sue
ADDING In answer to my own question.
It is possible. Their fathers had the same name.
Harriet's death
WISE Hart
Father Haynes Jno
Mother Cath HAYNES
Age 67
Death Place Watta
Year 1895
Reg. 7492
Sue
-
Stephen WISE bachelor (b. Portsmouth) m. Harriet HAYNES (b. London) 19th April 1847, MALTA.
Groom's parents: Daniel & Mary WISE
Bride's parents: John & Catherine HAYNES
They were back in the UK by 1848 for the birth of their first son & then daughter Emily Harriet WISE b. 1850. They arrived in AUS by 1853 with six more births registered to Stephen WISE & Harriet HAYNES in Victoria.
-
The Emily Norman who was in Kew/Beechworth/Ballarat asylums can be found in the Beechworth asylum:
http://prov.vic.gov.au/provguide-23
VPRS 7396/P1 - click through to download.
She is in F4 - 1904-1911 casebooks - large file.
Page 147 (on the PDF) / 131 (internal numbering)
She had dementia, and had previously been resident at the South Yarra Home for Women.
She was admitted to Kew in June 19 1905, admitted by "Police", no known relatives. Transferred to Beechworth April 19, 1906. Transferred to Ballarat 28 November 1906. (There are also medical notes)
South Yarra Home is described on Trove as a "home for fallen women".
Similarly Eliza can be found in VPRS 7446 P1 (Alphabetical Lists of Patients in Asylums), under the Beechworth list. This has much less detail but it does mention her husband - Wm Norman, bill poster + bellman, residing at Beechworth.
-
Similarly Eliza can be found in VPRS 7446 P1 (Alphabetical Lists of Patients in Asylums), under the Beechworth list. This has much less detail but it does mention her husband - Wm Norman, bill poster + bellman, residing at Beechworth.
For general interest-
http://www.worldthroughthelens.com/family-history/old-occupations.php
BELLMAN Employed as a watchman or town crier or who worked for the post office and collected letters for the mail coach by walking the streets and ringing a bell.
BILL POSTER or BILLBOARDER Put up notices, signs and advertisements.
Sue
-
Harriet WISE was widowed in 1887 when Stephen WISE a storekeeper died. His will leaves all to her.
She became the storekeeper at Bathanga and she herself died intestate in 1895.
Her daughter Emily Harriet WISE, a spinster, was responsible for her estate and she signed the required documents swearing to responsibly undertake this duty. This a digitised file.
Her signature can be seen here when the file is downloaded
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54
I have no doubt the signature is the same as the person's who was witness to William's marriage.(especially noting the formation of the H at the beginning of Harriet)
What do others think?
Sue
-
Speaking of the south Yarra Home for Women and Girls during his address at the St Albans Methodist Church last evening, the Rev G H Cole remarked that everything was done to a make the institution as home-like as possible for it was recognised that only by home influences was it possible to reach the hearts of degenerate womankind . a laundry and wash house were provided and the institution was meeting with such success that the mortgage of 1700 ponds with which it had started some fifteen years ago had been entirely wiped out.
Papers Past — Press — 24 August 1909 — NEWS OF THE DAY.
Further on the South Yarra Home-
This link describes in more detail the exact nature of the objectives of the “women’s homes” and the occupations and conditions of their inmates
http://www.emelbourne.net.au/biogs/EM00559b.htm
More information on the Elizabeth Fry Rescue Home South Yarra with a picture.
The laundry which was part of the occupational service offered to the women, still stands and I know the building well. It is set in a small park near Argo Street Sth Yarra,
http://www.findandconnect.gov.au/guide/vic/E000339
Sue
-
Well found, Sue. I would agree that the signatures of administrator of the Will and the witness on the marriage certificate are the same.
So Emily Harriet WISE then went on to make this marriage which we have seen before?
WISE Emily Hart
To LORAINE Edwd Lawson
Her Birth Place WOOLWICH
Yr 1897
Reg 863
From: London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 Parish Registers
Emily Harriet WISE
Born 7 Nov 1849, baptised: 2 Jan 1850
Father's Name: Stephen Wise, baker
Mother's name: Harriet Wise
Parish, Woolwich St Mary Magdalene, living at High St, Woolwich.
Borough: Greenwich
(Just as an aside Woolwich, of course, has strong Naval and military connections which may fit with the Malta connection)
It strikes me that it's possible that the Emily Harriet who arrived with Eliza NORMAN in 1857 was perhaps this Emily Harriet WISE?? However the OP has a birth for Emily Norman so it is more likely that they are two separate people.
1851 at 111? High St, Woolwich
Harriot Wise, married, 28, baker's wife, b London
Stephen Wise 3, b Woolwich
Emily Wise 1, b Woolwich
John Haynes, 55, father, pensioner from Admiralty, b Devon
Catherine Hayes, 50, b Southampton
Joseph Dutton, foreman, baker, b Chatham
No mention of Stephen, Harriet's husband.
The child Stephen must have emigrated also - his baptism record gives his name as Stephen Theodore WISE and here's the matching death
Victoria, 1889 # 5526
Stepen (sic) Theodore WISE, 40
Death Place: Wangaratta,
Father's Name: Stephen
Mother's name: Harriet Haynes
His marriage:
Victoria 1875 #3920
Stephen Theodore WISE
Catherine SULLIVAN
So, to sum up:
John and Catherine HAYNES parents of
Harriet HAYNES (b 1821, Woolwich) who marries (in Malta 1848) Stephen WISE
Harriet and Stephen WISE are parents of: Stephen Theodore WISE (b 1848 Woolwich) and Harriet Emily WISE (b 1849, Woolwich) and other chn born in Victoria after 1853.
Harriet Emily WISE is administrator of the estate of her mother (Harriet) in 1895 and marries Edward Lawson LORAINE in 1897. Death noted 1910.
Eliza NORMAN's father is given as John HAYNES, but I can't find a birth for her so unsure if her mother is Catherine. Seems very likely that Eliza NORMAN and Harriet WISE were sisters.
None of which finds an Emily Harriet NORMAN after the shipping record!
Judith
-
The Will of Stephen Theodore WISE of Wangaratta, d 1898 is digitised (PROV). It's a sad will as he was only 40 when he died and his wife had predeceased him leaving children under 12.
He names one of the executors as William NORMAN, station master, of Cheltenham - would this be the William NORMAN who arrived with his mother Eliza in 1857?
Judith
-
I've been away from Melbourne up country for a couple of days and I'm truly amazed at the work that has been going and have quite a lot to take in, many thanks to Sparrett, Judb, Essie, Merlin and Jorose.
1. I ruled out the Loraine Emily being Emily Harriett Norman after looking into her background and the parents names but the Loraine & Wise connection was unexpected.
2. I was sceptical to say the least about the witness being WISE but now having had a long look at the 1896 probate records I must agree with Sparrett that the witness in 1871 to William & Catherine's marriage was most likely Emily Harriet Wise, given that there are some 25 years between signatures there are some striking similarities, the "i" being dotted above the "s", the tail on the letter "e" and the ornamental letter "H". I'm certainly glad that I inserted the signature as I would be still "barking up the wrong tree" looking for Weirs. Thanks to Cando, Jennaya & Joyful for casting doubt on Weir and pointing to Wise.
3. Both Bethanga & Wangaratta are in close proximity to Beechworth in North Eastern Victoria so if Emily Harriet Wise was in either place in 1871 then she didn't have far to travel (by Aus standards), certainly she was of the right age being born in 1851 - 1852 (age at death 58 in 1910 according to Vic BDM) thanks Essie .
4. The link to Malta through Stephen Wise and possibly the same Haynes family as Eliza is remarkable but it all makes sense and that Emily Harriet Wise was no random witness if she was indeed the witness.
Eliza Norman's son William stated in the ledger entry for the death that the Eliza's father's name was JOHN and that his profession was a CARPENTER, Eliza's mother's name was not known. It was stated that Eliza was born in London although why she and William Norman were married in Derbyshire is still a mystery but the marriage in Derbyshire is stated in the death entry and there is a marriage in the LDS FamilySearch that matches this well.
Not knowing Eliza's mother's name makes it hard to link other possible siblings but the Maltese connection seems to point to Harriet Haynes being either Eliza's sister or a close relation. According to Eliza Haynes death entry she was aged 56 when she died on the 13/7/1878 making her DOB around 1821 - 1822. Harriet Haynes was born in 1847 so some 25 - 26 years after Eliza so not likely to be her sister but possibly a cousin.
Eliza Haynes was buried in a pauper's grave at Beechworth in 1878 and some 20 years later a former male patient from the May Day Hills asylum was buried on top of her.
Because the father and son both have the name William and no middle name I surmised that it was William Jnr who was definitely living around Beechworth in the 1870's that admitted his mother to the Beechworth asylum and whose stated occupation was "letter Poster" and "Bell Ringer" but it could well be the father William.
5. Back to the Emily Norman who seems to have been given the "run around" of Victoria's mental system circa early 1900's.
Thank you Jorose for this work and I hope you haven't blown your Internet download limit as these old files are big, not to mention difficult to read.
It certainly seems plausible that the Emily Norman who entered Kew asylum (presumably Willsmere, now up market private apartments) is the family Emily Harriett Norman, her estimated/stated age was 50 in 1905 at Kew which makes her 7 years younger than the family Emily and 52 in 1907 at Ballarat but the Ballarat record of her age would have been based upon the admission record at Kew. The case book at Beechworth states that she did not speak much and that there were no known relatives so her true age would be doubtful.
I will now go back to the Public Records Office in North Melbourne and look again to see if I can find the case book from Ballarat that holds Emily Norman's details before her death there in 1907, it may provide some final clue but given the death certificate stated all her details were unknown then I'm not holding my breath.
The Norman's may not have been all that close as a family as there are no mention of siblings in the few newspaper family notices (Trove) of William Jnr's death before his sister Jessie and no notices that I can find for Eliza or William Snr.
I also have copies of William Jnr's Will from 1915 and there is no mention of anyone other than his wife and children and there is no mention of Norman's in Catherine Norman's (nee McKinley, William Jnr's wife) Will either.
Incidentally as you will all know copies of the AGE newspaper are not available via Trove (they are available at the Vic State Library on microfilm) but many copies (some in better condition than the State Library Vic) can be found at http://news.google.com/newspapers but have not been OCR converted.
-
You're too quick for me Judith and some fantastic work, I just posted a reply when your new message came in.
It is most likely the family William Norman (Jnr) who was a station master, but I don't know if Cheltenham was one of the stations that he managed but I can find out.
The coincidence is though too much to make it anyone other than the family William Norman, William Norman Jnr's last residence and where he died was 14 Cassells Road Brunswick Melbourne Vic, he died on the 18/9/1915.
All this futher cements Emily Harriet Wise as the witness to William & Catherine's marriage, at least all your collective good work has ruled this witness out as being Emily Harriett Norman which is a significant achievement.
It's amazing how you sometimes see what you want to see, now I'm going to have to diplomatically turn down Les' efforts on the Weir search in the UK.
PS: Bizarrely Cheltenham is where some of the family Weir's are buried!
-
Quote:
Harriet Haynes was born in 1847 so some 25 - 26 years after Eliza so not likely to be her sister but possibly a cousin.
Not correct.
This is the baptism entry for Harriet.
Harriet HAYNES, born to parents John and Catherine HAYNES was baptised 5 August, 1821 at St Martin in the Fields. Her father's occupation was given as 'messenger' (I think) and they lived at 6 Scotland Yard.
Other children listed as baptised at the same church and with the same parents:
Catherine, bap July 1824
Lolitia is shown on the index but I think it's Letitia, bap March 1826
John, bap 1829
Harriet is shown as aged 28 in 1851.
I can't see an Eliza to prove whether she and Harriet are siblings.
Judith
-
Adding to the above information: John HAYNES gives his occupation in 1851 as "pensioner from Admiralty". Does this fit with his occupation of 'messenger' for the baptisms? I think it would be quite possible but not 100% sure.
Judith
-
Not knowing Eliza's mother's name makes it hard to link other possible siblings but the Maltese connection seems to point to Harriet Haynes being either Eliza's sister or a close relation. According to Eliza Haynes death entry she was aged 56 when she died on the 13/7/1878 making her DOB around 1821 - 1822. Harriet Haynes was born in 1847 so some 25 - 26 years after Eliza so not likely to be her sister but possibly a cousin.
F C WEBB
Just drawing your attention here to a small error.
Harriett WISE (nee HAYNES) was 67 at death in 1895
Eliza NORMAN (nee HAYNES) was born around 1821/2
Harriett married in 1847 (Reply#33)
Eliza married in 1845
Sue
ADDING Sorry Judith I have sort of doubled up on your info :(
-
1841 Census:
John Haynes 40yrs - occupation messenger
Catherine Haynes 40yrs
Eliza Haynes 20yrs
Harriett Haynes 15yrs
Catherine Haynes 15yrs
Ann Haynes 40yrs
John Haynes 12yrs
St George Hanover Square, Westminster
Piece: 732
Book: 16
Folio: 30
Page Number: 14
-
Looks very possible that Eliza and Harriet HAYNES were sisters:
1841 at Pembroke Pl, Westminster (parish St George, Hanover Square)
John Haynes 40, messenger - not born in County (Middlesex)
Catherine Haynes 40 - not born County
Eliza Haynes 20 - BIC as are the others listed.
Harriett Haynes 15 -
Catharine Haynes 15
Ann Haynes 40
John Haynes 12
1841 ages are rounded so Harriet and Catherine may not be twins.
oops - Merlin you beat me!
Judith
-
So there we have it. William NORMAN Jnr's cousin Emily Harriet WISE was the witness at his marriage ;D
All neat and tidy ;) ;)
Sue
-
Marriage:
John HAYNES m. Catherine ROOK 13 Dec 1818 Saint Dunstan In The West, London
-
Thanks for picking up my error, I was looking at the wrong date for Harriett Haynes, so Eliza and Harriett were sisters it seems, Eliza's son William may not have really known what occupation/profession his mother's father had so we can't read too much into "Carpenter" on Eliza'a death entry.
-
BUT - we still haven't found what happened to Emily Harriet NORMAN. Do you have her birth certificate? It would be interesting if you could transcribe it.
Has anyone found an immigration for Stephen and Harriet WISE and their children?
Judith
-
1851 Census HO107/1589/101/21
Residing 111 High Street, Woolwich Arsenal
WISE Harriet Married 28 years Baker’s wife Born London
WISE Stephen Son 2 years Born Woolwich Kent
WISE Emily Dau 1 year Born Woolwich Kent
HAYNES John Father Married 55 years Pensioner from Admiralty Born Devonshire, Fromington
HAYNES Catherine Mother Married 50 years Born Hampshire, Southampton
DUTTON Joseph ?Foreman 41 years Baker Born Kent, Chatham
Cando
-
Has anyone found an immigration for Stephen and Harriet WISE and their children?
Looks like them on the WOODSTOCK from London arriving 27 Apr 1853 at Port Phillip.
Stephen WISE 30yrs
Adelaide WISE 30yrs (Harriet?)
Stephen T WISE 3yrs
- WISE 1yr
Edward WISE 30yrs
Nationality for all the above is listed as English
-
I agree that is the family arriving Vic. I dismissed the record initially with the name Adelaide ::). Harriet's age is a match with the 1851 census however her age isn't correct on the census. Perhaps she didn't wish to appear older than her OH.
Baptised at St Martins in the Field, Westminster
5 Aug 1821
HAYNES Harriet Father John [Messenger] Mother Catherine of 6 Scotland Yard.
Other baptisms with parents John and Catherine have his occupations as both messenger and baker.
Cando
-
I don't have Emily Harriett Norman's birth certificate but the people who compiled the lists on the http://website.lineone.net/~stephaniebidmead/other%20sites.htm web site have obtained this information from somewhere.
I have sent two Emails to that site over the past 12 months and they went unanswered so I'm not sure if this site is being maintained.
I have tried the London Metropolitan Archives without success and the BMD Registers Non Conformist Non Parochial site that supposedly has overseas registrations without success.
There is a note about Malta in the LDS FamilySearch site https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/British_Births,_Marriages_and_Deaths_Overseas#Foreign_Registers_and_Returns_1627-1958_.28RG33.2F1-162.29 that details what happened to some records from Malta.
William Norman was described as being a "Steward to Admiral William Parker" at Malta but simply as a Pensioner on his death certificate. Perhaps the Haynes, Wise and Norman families were all bakers?
-
For completeness I have updated some details of the Norman's
1. I have sent another Email to the http://website.lineone.net/ site seeking the source of their BDM data on Malta information but as yet I have not received a reply.
2. I have revisited the Public Records Office and re-examined the available Male & Female patients case books for the Ballarat - Sunbury asylums for the period that Emily Norman was there (1906 - 1907) but again no success, the record books are incomplete and overlap to some extent. Her name appears on the Male index but the Male case books are incomplete with at least one missing volume for that period where I presume her details would be if the index is accurate.
3. Looked up William Norman's Jnr's railway station master postings in "Rigg of The Railways" ISBN 0646415395 which is the most complete and readily available listing and it only lists his posting to Brunswick station on the 28/7/1902, it lists his DOB as 30/10/1847 compared to the site on Malta that lists his birth as the 30/10/1845? The Rigg book is not complete so William may well have been the station master at Cheltenham at some stage. I'm quite sure though that the William Norman listed as executor to Stephen Wise's Will is the same person.
4. I note from LDS " FamilySearch" that William Norman had two other brothers also born in Deptford, John in 1804 and James in 1806. Only the 1851 census lists any of the Normans and that is James who is living at Chatham, is a Widower and works as a "Baker Journeyman", so the baker occupation seems a strong link. William Norman's parents being John Norman and Sarah Wilson as stated on his death certificate.
5. There is a John Norman who dies at Inglewood in North West Victoria in 1890 whose DOB is 1804-1805 born London that is a good candidate to be William Norman's brother. John Norman died a bachelor with no known details other than he was born in London.
I think that the absence of any other DBM information for Emily Harriett Norman makes the Emily Norman who died at Ballarat a good candidate to be the family member but I don't think that I will be able to obtain any further conclusive evidence unless someone else at some future time claims to be a descendant.
Once again many thanks to all for the excellent work over the past two weeks in tracking down the Wise family connections and the fact that Eliza Haynes sister Harriett also emigrated to Australia.
best regards ....... Frank
-
You probably have this:
Parents of John NORMAN, baptised 24 November, 1804 at St Paul's Deptford are listed as John and Sarah NORMAN of Butt Lane; father's occupation: mariner. Same parent address and occupation for the brothers James and William (born April 2, 1808).
Judith
-
Check out 1841 census for John Haynes and Catherine (nee Rook) with daughters Eliza & Harriett at St George Hanover Square. 1851 census John is now a pensioner from the admiralty, he & Catherine are now living with married daughter Harriet Wise at St Mary Woolwich. Eliza has married William Norman and is now in Victoria. Daughter Emily Wise aged 1 is there (same who witnessed the Beechworth wedding in 1871). John Haynes died 1853, Catherine died at Brighton in 1862.
Death notices in Trove: Ovens & Murray Advertiser 1/8/1878 gives death notice for Eliza Norman of Loch St Beechworth (same address as the bellman & billposter probably the son). The Age 6/12/1881 gives death notice for William Norman aged 74 died 22/11/1881 at Emerald Hill (no street).
-
Thanks shollingworth101 for passing on this information, I had not come across the notice in the Ovens & Murray Advertiser but Trove are busily digitising new material all the time. Following on from my last messages on this subject Trove had subsequently added the "The Record", a local newspaper covering South Melbourne (Emerald Hill) as well as limited editions of "The Age", an article appeared in both of February 1901 detailing the magistrates court hearing concerning Emily Norman of Emerald Hill on vagrancy charges (no visible means of support). This would be the same Emily Norman admitted to the Elizabeth Fry Retreat at this time and thence to the psychiatric hospital system ending in Ballarat.
At no stage did it seem that anyone knew about her brother William and sister Jessie and by 1901 her sister Jessie (one of my G Grandmothers) was living at Mordialloc which was farmland on the outskirts of Melbourne in those days although the Woods retained a house in South Melbourne.
I can't help but think that the Woods may have retreated to Mordialloc in the 1890's post William Norman Snr's death to escape the wayward Emily.
-
Thanks for the extra info on Emily. After really following Trove I've come to the conclusion that the bellman and billposter in Loch St Beechworth was William Norman Senior. The best fit for his arrival is in 1865 on 'Norfolk' and he was living in Beechworth in 1869 when he bought shares in a mining company operating at Clear Creek. There is too much overlap with his son in El Dorado to make it possible that William junior ran the business in Beechworth. He was too busy managing the affairs of the New Wellington company to make that possible. William Junior seems to have hung around the area for a while, seems to have been on the committee for the Ovens Hospital in 1883. Was obviously at Cheltenham Station by March 1884.