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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Radnorshire => Topic started by: mayne knott on Monday 24 February 14 14:17 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone help? I've been researching the "Blackmore" Family who lived in Presteigne, Radnorshire from (according to various wales census returns) between 1861 to 1881. I'm particularly interested in finding out what happened to Sarah T Blackmore after 1881. This census shows she was living in St Davids St aged 64 yrs. She is listed as a widow. Birthplace Grand River, Upper Canada, British North America in 1817. Her husband was a member of the Radnorshire Rifles and he may have died in some military conflict prior to 1881. She is completely off the radar after this date of 1881 and nowhere to be seen. I can't find any death records at all. Her son, Thomas Blackmore is living in Birmingham, Warwickshire from 1881 onwards and she is not with them. Any help will be most appreciated
David
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The 1871 shows her husband as William aged 58 b Bideford Devon plus a son John C aged 30 b Salisbury Wiltshire
he married in Presteigne in 1872 but then also seems to disappear
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Hello
1881 Wales Presteigne
Chapel Terrace
John C Blackmore age 40 born Salisbury Wiltshire Coal and Lime Agent (Merchant)
Emma wife age 35 rest born Presteigne
William H son age 9
John C son age 7
John C Blackmore age 17 from Presteigne apprentice in Birmingham 1891
1901
William H Blackmore age 29 from Presteigne Ironmongers assistant Herefordshire with wife Elizabeth A from Hereford
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Hello Carole, thanks for your reply. I do have a copy of the 1871 census and was aware of the status of this family at that time. This family has been very problematic to trace I'll try and summarize, if possible, where I am with this family. For William Blackmore - The England census return (H.O. 107. 1628) for 1851 shows that at the time of this census he was serving in the Royal Navy (declared as a "Seaman in the RN" by his wife, Sarah Blackmore). The census shows that the family are living in Minster, Sheerness, Kent. His youngest son, John R Blackmore is declared as being 1 Yr old, birthplace Kent, Sheerness. Records (FreeBMD) show that this birth was registered at Greenwich, Qtr3 in 1850. There is a significant gap in age (some 10 years) between him and his older brother (John C Blackmore). Based on research into Naval Medal Rolls and a later census of 1861 it seems likely that William Blackmore had joined the Royal Navy around 1843- 1844 and possibly earlier than this. Military record searches (ADM 171 / 6 page 239) list him on the ship's company for HMS Vanguard "as cruising off Alexandra and on the coast of Syria" in about 1841 - the date of this action further supports the possibility of him joining the Royal Navy before 1843. A further search of naval medal rolls list him on HMS Albion about 1856 in the Crimea War. The medal roll lists him in the Sea Marine Brigade. The 1861 and 1871 census returns show William Blackmore now back in Presteigne, Radnorshire. He is serving in the Radnorshire Rifles as a "Bugle Major" The Radnorshire Rifles were a Militia group formed in 1763 and named the Radnorshire Militia. During the following 16 years the militia went through a number of changes or mergers (merged with the South Breckonshire Rifles). Further changes or mergers took place which resulted in this Militia group becoming known as the South Wales Borderers. They finally became known as The Royal Regiment of Wales.
The 1881 census does not show William Blackmore - only his wife, Sarah is listed. She declared she is a Widow aged 64 working as a Tailoress. She is living at St David Street, Presteigne. At this stage no official record showing the death of William Blackmore can be found. Further research into the national archives shows that on record W.O. 100 .47 he is listed being engaged in Zulu war 1879 serving with the depot. History records that there was a supply depot supporting the British Army at this time. Further research would be difficult but its not unreasonable to assume that he could have been killed in this conflict.
My reason for interest in this family is that William and Sarah Blackmore were my GtGTGrandparents. Sorry if this summary is quite "lengthy" but I thought it best to offer a full explanation rather than bits of information.
David
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Hi
A bit strange to have 2 sons both called John but they are both on the 1851 as you say
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N2ZM-QD
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Carole, yes it is a bit strange - the give-away appears to be in the middle name initial for both of them - John - the elder John C born Wilts, Salisbury and the younger John R born Kent, Sheerness. I've done some searching previously on the FreeBMD index "Blackmore John Charles" qtr3 1850 registered at Greenwich. There's also another John Blackmore birth qtr4 1841 registered at Fordingbridge covers Hampshire and Wiltshire. Could it possibly be a transcription error on the 1851 census??
David
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Hi
I don't think it's an error. There are 2 entries each with different ages and different birthplaces. The only other time I've come across children of the same name in the same family is when there is a
re-marriage involved and there are children from both marriages.
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It gets stranger
In 1861 - the son born Sheerness is William aged 16
RG9 Piece 4232 Folio 83 Page 10
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Hello Carole - stranger and stranger. The freeBMD index lists William Henry Blackmore born qtr4 in 1844 district Sheppy. In fact it's recorded twice. Information from the list of registration places for Sheppy shows Minster in Sheppy. The 1851 census confirms that they were living in the parish of Minster, Sheppy at Benthams Square. I had not thought about the possibility of remarriage. It may be the children's birth certificate is the way to go - but which one will give the right answer! More searching by the looks of it.
David
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Hi David
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I think your conclusions about William's navy service need to be more rigorously tested. I say this because on the NGS medal roll the William on HMS Vanguard is a ships cook, but later on in HMS Albion is a Leading Seaman, which would be an unusual career path in the Royal Navy. If you were able to visit the National Archives at Kew I would consult Albion's Ships Description Book (ADM 38/7489), this would confirm this William's age and place of birth, plus listing all his previous ships and dates of service.
There is another path you could take, and that is to order on-line from the National Archives, the Greenwich Hospital School admissions application for John Charles Blackmore, born 5th March 1841 (ADM 73/172/87). While this does not provide a place of birth it does give his parents as William and Sarah. A subsequent check on Familysearch.org returned exactly the same birth date for a John Charles Blackmore born to a William and Sarah in Wiltshire.
Admission to the GHS was only available to children of long serving seamen, and applications were generally accompanied by a statement of the man's service. Of course this still might not be your man, but my hunch is that it could well be.
Martin
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Hello Martin, thanks for your reply and suggestions - no I wont take it the wrong way! I'm only to glad of any help on this. Tracing this family's history has been problematic to say the least and the addition of military history has just added to it. I have managed to download some details which I think refer to his naval service - I think that the declaration that he was serving in the navy on the 1851 census is correct. His military service prior to and after this date requires more checks. I'll try your suggestion about the GHS school as a starter. If you can offer any more suggestions on research into military history around this time period please let me know.
Regards and many thanks, David
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David
I find this man a little bit of a conundrum. If it were not for his wife’s statement that he was a seaman I would have thought there was a good chance he was a Royal Marine. I say this because I researched a RM Sgt. who had served in the Crimea, who after leaving the service became a Musketry Instructor with the Cornish Militia, a not dissimilar route to your man.
If you do order the Greenwich Hospital School admission papers, do come back a let us know what you find.
Martin
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Hello Martin,
yes conundrum is just the right word! I've had another look at my records and note that on ADM 171 /28 for HMS Sans Pariel he appears as listed in the Sea Marine Brigade. I checked the Royal Naval Museum web site and found on their data sheets a write up covering Naval Brigades.
On census returns for 1861 (RG9/4232) and 1871 (RG10/5594) he is now listed as a "Bugle Major" in the Radnorshire Militia / Rifles. His eldest son, Thomas Blackmore (my Gtgrandfather) is also in the Radnorshire Militia / Rifles for the 1861 census. Interestingly, his son John C Blackmore is also listed on the 1871 census as being in the Radnorshire Militia / Rifles. Stranger than this is the 1861 census lists Charles Blackmore as (presumably this is John C Blackmore - age works out and birthplace seem to match) as Confectioner. Thomas Blackmore is later listed on the 1871 census (RG10/5594) as a Militia Hospital Sergeant - he's now married to Ellen Nicholls.
Your comments about your ex RM joining the Cornish Militia do seem to have strong similarities to my man don't they.
David
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Hello Martin,
Just to keep you up to date, I've requested an estimate of ADM 73/172/87 from the National Archives at Kew. When this part of the process is complete I'll order it and see what information it reveals. My understanding is that admission to the GHS was from aged 10 yrs. Boys remained there until 14 yrs. If they didn't make the grade they were discharged.
The 1851 census shows John C Blackmore aged 10 yrs and at home in Minster, Sheppy with his mother Sarah and his brothers Thomas and John R. The 1861 census shows he's aged 20 yrs and at home (now listed as Charles working as a confectioner) in Presteigne with his parents This seems to suggest that he didn't make the grade at the GHS or he never went there at all even though an application was made. I'll let you know how I get on.
David
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Hello Martin,
I've may have found my man. I've been searching the National Archives and found the following record details reference ADM 29/43/314; Original page number: 314 - William BLACKMORE; Rating; Born: [Not Given]; Age on entry: 29; Dates served: 27 April 1842-7 December 1853; Date and Type of Application: Greenwich 10 June 1851
I've calculated his date of birth from the age given on entry and this matches his birth date of 1813.
I'll see what other document for the GHS shows before I order the above. I'll let you know how I get on.
David
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Hello Martin,
I have at long last got my hands on the document ADM 73/172/87 from TNA.
Details of Naval Service are as follows dated as 12 June 1851:-
HMS Camperdown - 27th April 1842 to 18th July 1844; HMS Queen - 19th July to 31st Jan 1845; Quality - AB
HMS Trafalgar - 1st Feb 1845 to 30th Jun 1847; HMS Ocean - 1st July 1847 to 12th Oct 1847; Quality - AB
HMS Ocean - 13th Oct to 10th Jan 1848; HMS Ocean - 11th Jan 1848 to 22nd Dec 1850; Quality - Banks Man
HMS Monarch - 27th Jan 1851 to 31st Mar 1851; Quality - AB
Looks like he finally left the service in 1851. The file also shows that his son wasn't accepted into the hospital school - he had passed the maximum entry age for acceptance and his father hadn't enough service years. There are other useful details on this document which have shed some light on other issues.
Many thanks for your help, David