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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: sugarfizzle on Friday 28 February 14 07:02 GMT (UK)
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I have a marriage at All Hallows, Almondbury (not indexed at an**ry, can be found bottom left, image 3, 1723)
6 Feb 1723/24
Edwardus Hoyle and Eleena Goddard de Greave
Any ideas as to where Greave would be?
Margaret
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If you search on the Old Maps website a possible is a village called Greave over the border into Lancashire to the east of Bacup. On modern maps it appears to be absorbed in Bacup http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html
Kay
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Thanks for that, Kay. You may be right, but I can't help but think that the record would have said Greave, Lancashire, rather than just Greave - some 30 miles away and in the next county.
I'll take a look at Lancashire records to see if I can find a possible baptism, nothing crops up in West Yorkshire.
Thanks for a new line of investigation,
Margaret
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"GREAVE a hamlet in the chapelry of Nether Thong and parish of Almondbury, West Riding county York, 4 miles S of Huddersfield"
Stu
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This mentions Greave as part of Netherthong & has a map:
http://historyofnetherthong.co.uk/?p=147
States Upper Greave was renamed St Mary's [now St Mary's Court] & Lower Greave still exists & consists of half a dozen houses.
If this is your family & you would like any pictures of the area pm me your email address - I live a mile or two away.
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Thanks Stu and Josey. I've already looked at Almondbury, Holmfirth and Kirkburton records. Nothing for Edward Hoyle either, so the lines probably end with the marriage.
Margaret
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Does the "de Greave" in fact suggest where she lived? Could it be part of her surname or an indication of her family's status?
The husband seems to be just plain "Hoyle"- no addition to indicate his village.
Does de Greave sounds a bit upper class?
Or conversely, Greaves as a surname is a local name dating back very many centuries. My own Greaves were ordinary folk.
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You may be on to something there. My latin is pretty rusty; I think I assumed that because Edward's name appeared 'latinised' as Edwardus that the 'de' meant 'from' but it's French of course. Looking at my pocket dictionary Latin for 'from' is 'ab' or 'a' or 'e' or 'ex'.
Could it be that Edward may not have anything after his name as he came from the area of the church?
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Bykerlads and Josie
It did cross my mind that Greave could have been part of her surname, rather than where she was from. I hadn't made the connection that 'de' meaning 'of' was French rather than Latin.
However, looking at the original image, most of the records seem to include 'de' -
Not knowledgable about the area, but some examples -
de Lockwood
de Hoowood in Austonly
de Ridgwood
de Armitage
So, I think that it does refer to the place rather than the surname
Margaret
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Yes it does look as if the "de" denoted which village a person came from.The "de Hoowood in Austonley" can only be a reference to a place. It would have been because Almondbury church served as mother church to a large area, as did Kirkburton.
The "de" is indeed French in origin whereas Edwardus is latinised with the "us" ending. This was not uncommon in early church records.
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Bykerlads
The reason I picked those places out in particular was because I could find something similar in records or on current day maps.
Hoowood, Austonley appears throughout censuses, though I can find no sign of it on current day maps. Several families give this as their address.
National Archives refers to
'John Armitage to Thomas Wilkinson.
Relate to conveyance of a house called Howood in Austonley (p. Almondbury) to Thomas Wilkinson.
Includes receipts, accounts and solicitors bills.'
http://genforum.genealogy.com/armitage/messages/944.html
An Armitage researcher gives the following information -
Comment:The hamlet of Howood has been demolished but was here:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=410562&Y=407222&A=Y&Z=115
Margaret
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I am no latin scholar but I have been told that the latin in parish registers etc is often "pidgin" latin but the word "de" has certainly been used in latin documents since medieval times.
This is a good site for latin words https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Latin_Genealogical_Word_List
I looked on the 1672 Hearth tax list for Hoyles and Goddards. There were Hoyles in Almondbury in 1672 but no Goddards. However there were Goddards in Holmfirth at that time.
Stu
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I have ancestors from Austonley but haven't come across Howood before. Will have a look for it.
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If you go to these digitised & georeferenced maps
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/
put Huddersfield in the gazetteer search field, choose 'England & Wales' then 'OS One Inch 1892 - 1908 Outline' from the drop down boxes, you can see a few houses at the point on Margaret's street map reference; the great thing is that you have a sliding scale to bring in as much as you want of a satellite image overlay and see exactly what was flooded for Digley reservoir.
Josey
ADDED: West Yorkshire Archives have a single reference to Howood - a bond of Obligation from 1688
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0y9y/
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Stu, Edward and Ellin/Elena Hoyle settled in Kirkburton/Holmfirth area, perhaps Edward's home town. Apart from this marriage, there is no known connection to Almondbury as such. The hearth tax list records may relate to my family, but as I said before, I have got no further back than this marriage in February 1723/24. There was a Ralph Goddard, married 1668 and having children in Kirkburton, but no connection found - is this the one you found in the hearth tax returns?
Bykerlads, if you look at the link to streetmaps, or even Google maps, you will find 'Howood Lane', just NW of Digley reservoir. On streetmaps it is given as a track. No signs of any houses in the area.
Margaret
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Thanks, I've just located Hoowood Lane overlooking the reservoirs and also on the 1840/44 Cassini map which has what looks like Hoowood Hall and Hoowood Mill.
My Austonely families lived nearer towards Holmfirth, farming the land by Mellor Lane.
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Josey, Thanks so much for that link, I've never seen it before. I used to use Old Maps, but this has become unusable as a reference tool in later years. This is fantastic - worth starting the topic for!!
Margaret
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This is fantastic - worth starting the topic for!!
When the National Library of Scotland put these maps online in January - I did post the news in The Common Room - it's at
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=673460.msg5185127#msg5185127
but I'm not sure how many people read it! I did neglect to mention about the georeferencing & satellite image superimposition though. Most Scottish maps have been digitised at 6 in and 25 in to the mile; shame the English ones are limited to the 6 in to the mile apart from th eLondon ones at 1:1056. There is a choice of several OS series for Scotland as well so you can follow an area through time.
I'm surprised the British Museum [where I understand the archived English OS maps are held] have not done this for all the UK's OS maps. The Map Library in Edinburgh has always been very pro-active in digitisation.
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Where I've found names that appear to have been "latinised" (and some of it seems a bit like French, too) in entries, they've often been Roman Catholic ones. Was this one?
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The 1672 Hearth Tax had no Goddards in Kirkburton but Holmfirth had a William Goddart and a William Godart, both paid for one hearth.
Stu
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The Greave in "Netherthong" is the correct one but it should be Meltham rather than Netherthong. The two seem to have been separated during Elizabeth I's reign. At the time of this marriage Netherthong was part of Honley chapelry (the Honley town book records the Honleyers taking legal advice to try to get Netherthong township to pay its share of the chapel upkeep) whilst Meltham had its own chapel. Ellen's brother James was buried in Meltham & the register entry is quoted in a book on the history of Meltham. The chapelry of Netherthong must have been shortlived in the C19th. The vicar or Almondbury at the time split the huge parish into a series of smaller ones. Chapelries were carved out of Holmfirth chapelry at Upperthong and Holmbridge which then became parishes in their own right; boundaries seem to have been tweaked during this process. It seems likely that the same process would have been followed at Netherthong and the source quoted would date from this interim stage.
Previously the family had lived in Upperthong for several generations. There appear to have been 4 generations of William Goddard there the last of whom had at least 2 children born there but then moved to Greave. Ellen was one of his children. The widow of William II lived at Hillock http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=412228&Y=409284&A=Y&Z=115&ax=412133&ay=408672 Greave is the group of houses just under the caption "Manor House" to the north so it wasn't a great distance to move but it was to a different manor.
William IV died 1720:
In the name of God Amen I William Goddard of Greave in the Parish of Almondbury and the County of York Cloathier being sick in Body but of sound and perfect Memory praised by God therefore do here make & ordain this my Last Will and Testament. in Manner & Form following.
First and principally I commit my soul into the hands of Almighty God my Creator hoping through the Meritorious Death of Jesus Christ my Redeemer to obtain full & free Remission of all my Sins. And my Body I do Commit to the Earth to be buried at the discretion of my Executrix hereafter named.
And as for the personal Estate wherewith it hath pleased God of his Goodness to bless me my Will and Mind is And give and dispose of the Same in Manner & form following,
Imprimis my Will and Mind is that my Debts and Funeral Expences & Probate of this my Will be first paid out of my Whole Goods.
Item I give & bequeath unto John Goddard my Son my Great Bible and also one shilling in Silver to be paid unto him by my Executrix hereafter named
Item I given and bequeath unto Mary & Sarah my two daughters the wifes of James Oldham and Joshua Tinker either of them One Shilling.
And my Will and Mind is and I do hereby give and bequeath unto my aforefaid Sons in Law James Oldham & Joshua Tinker those my cloaths of Apparell which I am used to wear and also the cloathing of my son that is Lately deceased and the same to be divided equally betwixt them according to the discretion of my son John Goddard
And my Will & Mind is that Martha my Wife have the benefit of the farm and tenement wherein I live the residue of the Term yet unexpired and I give the same unto her
And as for all the rest Residue and Remainder of my Goods and Personal Estate whatsoever my Will and Mind is that the same be equally Divided amongst my three Younger Daughters Martha, Ellen, & Elizabeth, & Martha my Wife (Vizt) To Every one of them a fourth part thereof, And I do hereby Give the same unto them.
And I do hereby Ordain and appoint Martha my beloved Wife Sole Executrix of this my Last Will & Testament hereby revoking all other and former Will or Wills by me heretofore made
In Witness whereof I have hereunto put my Hand and Seal the twenty first day of October Anno Dmi 1720.
PS And That a Rideing Coate Late Joshua Goddard and now in the possession of Joshua Hirst is excepted out of the above bequeathed Cloathes and this postscript writt before the sealing thereof.
William Goddard his Mark and Seal, Sealed & Signed published & declared to be the Last Will & Testament of the abovesaid Testator in the sight and presence of us, John Woodhead, Timothy Malinson his Mark, Robert France
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Holnbridger, Thanks very much for that.
First of all, a very warm welcome to Rootschat, a very informative post for your first one.
Can't find out anything online about William Goddard, or birth/baptisms of the children mentioned, including Ellin/Elenor/Ellen. Can you enlighten me please? I had thought I was as far back as I was going to get with this line, but apparently not!
Wonder why the older girls got a shilling apiece, and the younger ones a quarter share in his property. Even the older girls husband's got more than they did themselves! Perhaps a dowry had already been given fairly recently? Pity there is no indication of the size of his estate - could be next to nothing, or quite substantial.
Regards,
Margaret
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A welcome from me too, Holnbridger. A very informative post, thank you.
Do you know where in Upperthong the Goddards lived?
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There is only one location for any of the Williams and that's the death of a widow (buried 5 Jun 1669) who, by my reckoning must have been the widow of William II. She died at Hillock http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=412135&Y=408667&A=Y&Z=115 There was also an Oliver G who in 1662 was at Hill.
According to George Redmonds the death of the widow was the first mention of Hillock & for a while I wondered if Hill had been the original location and Hillock (little Hill) was a newly coined name and some sort of pun on being the residence of little Will, the son of the older William. However there's a map of the graveship of Holme reputed to be much older & that has a recognisable variation of Hillock so I think the name and settlement is much older. Pity!
There is a William junior mentioned in the manorial roll of 1665. From the timing I think this is William II and the implied William senior William I who would then have been the William senex (old man) buried 21 Jan 1674. William II's death must have been between 1665 & 1669 but isn't recorded. Events from the top end of the valley are badly recorded in Almondbury. None of the baptisms, marriages or, apart from William I, burials of the Williams are recorded and of their children (exceptions below) I have only either the baptism or the burial and yet apart from the Williams and Oliver there were a few other adult Goddards for who I don't have a baptism. Of their wives I don't have the death of William I's wife although I have a remarriage of William IV's.
William's I & II would have been the William Gs in the Hearth Tax.
I have the baptism of an illegitimate daughter Anne of William IV, baptised 14 Aug 1684, buried 01 Sep 1684. I also have the baptisms of John 25 Jul 1687 and Sarah 16 Sep 1694, the latter at Holmfirth and the former at a chapel which I take to have been Holmfirth. I have nothing for the other children.
The married children, daughters as well as son John, would all have had their children's portions on marriage. This, and a token bequest, was the custom. It's clear that William was making provision for his widow and the unmarried children. A younger son Joseph was buried in Meltham 24 ?Aug 1720. Joseph Hughes' History of Meltham quotes a burial entry in the Meltham chapel register:
1720. Josephus f: Willi Goddard de Greave sep. 24 o
[month not given but the next entry is for 25th August]
Dat veniam Corvis, Vexat censura Columbas
(“The censors forgive the crows and harasses the doves” Juvenal. The sense seems to be that Joseph's death was unjust.)
I note that I have Joshua in the transcript of the will. I'll have to go back & check that but it's undoubtedly the same son. What I really want to know is what happened to the Bible in the will.
We know that daughter Martha subsequently married James Dearnley on 10 Jun 1724 as his second wife (Mark Dearnley has a good deal about this James D on his site at familytree.dearnley.com - any Dearnley researchers are strongly recommended to contact Mark). In James's will she was left three cottages at Wickens in Upperthong which was then to descend to a son whose baptism we don't have but who we take to be a son of that marriage. A row of cottages on Dean Road at Upper Wickens are close to Hillock & although there are now more than 3 there appears to be a central block of 3. As James D's known property interests were on the other side of the valley it appears likely that these cottages may have formed part of the marriage portion in which case it seems as if the move to Greave didn't end the Upperthong connection.
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As I've indicated we do seem to have 4 generations of William G in Upperthong. William II is referred to as junior in a manorial roll & William IV in the PR (IIRC at the baptism of his illegitimate daughter) so I infer that Williams I & II and III & IV are father/son pairs. II & III may well be but so far there's no direct indication.
In the C16th PRs of Almobdbury there are a few mentions of Almondbury girls marrying Goddards or having illegitimate Goddard children but no indication of Goddards in the parish. However there was a Christopher Goddard mentioned in a document of 1425 which was a pre-marital settlement listing the inhabitants of Emley & Skelmanthorpe. Emley was a sub-manor of Wakefield & there were a few mentions of Goddards in Emley in the published C16th MRs but, sadly, not in the single published C15th MR. I conclude that for at least 200 years there were Goddards in Emley (Emley PRs only start c1600 & the last baptised Goddard, Matthew, seems to have been buried in Kirkburton).
To be continued
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Sorry about the break. To continue.
We have Goddards in Emley in the c15th & C16th who may be the Goddards who appear occasionally in the Almondbury & Kirkburton PRs.
During the C16th they start to become resident in the parishes served by Holmfirth chapelry. Hugh married Alice Bray at Kirkburton in 1579 & had children baptised there, Margaret in 1581 (married John Heliwell in Almondbury in 1605) & John in 1588. Alice might have been the Alice G who married George Beaumont in Kirkburton in 1952.
A Thomas G had various children baptised in Kirkburton between 1584 & 1596. The arrival of these two families in Kirkburton parish suggests that they may have been brothers, sons of a Goddard who had had children in Emley and then settled in Kirkburton.
There are several Goddards having families in Kirkburton in the early C17th a couple of whom fit in date with sons of Thomas above. There is, however, no sign of the William line. However the PRs for Kirkburton are in a poor condition for the early decades of the C17th and transcripts are dependent on BTs half of which are missing. It's entirely possible that William I's father could have married, had William I baptised, William I married and William II baptised at this time without records of any of these events surviving. What's more John, son of Hugh, would fit nicely with such a sequence. Whether or not this particular line was the origin of the Williams it seems likely that the Emley family would have been ancestral to them.
Can we roll back from Emley? Possibly. Yorks Arch Soc have a collection of documents, the Bradfer-Lawrence collection accessible via TNA which includes a series of documents from Snaith parish. These document the emergence of a Godard family in Cowick just before 1300 starting from MD335/5/108 (Google is your friend; note that "de Mora" means "of the moor" and that would be Cowick Moor). The last of these dates from 1351.
In the 1360s there was a William Goddard around Rotherham (try DD/FJ/1/209/6, one of the Foljambe papers for one document) and in the 1379 subsidy roll (this was the Poll Tax that prompted the Peasant's Revolt) the only male Goddard in the West Riding was a William Goddard who I take to have been a son of the William in the Foljambe papers. Oddly enough there were no Goddards in Snaith but then there is no mention of anyone in Cowick; perhaps nobody was at home when the tax collectors arrived or possibly the Goddard family had already moved down the Humber to Hull. The Rotherham family was sufficiently close in time and place to the Cowick family to suggest that it was an off-shoot.
In the early C15th there was a Goddard family in Sheffield and, as we have seen, in Emley by 1425. These are a generation or two later than William in 1379. Sheffield is sufficiently close to Rotherham for us not to be surprised that one of William's children or grandchildren might have moved there but what about Emley? As it happens the Fitzwilliams who were lords of Emley also had interests around Rotherham; they held Emley itself from the manor of Wakefield but they were also lords of Sprotborough, I think directly from the crown. Sprotborough PRs, like Emley, only date from c1600 & there's a Goddard in an early record there. It seems entirely possible that the Fitzwilliams transplanted one of their tenants from one of their manors to another.
This is more of a crumb trail than a solid genealogical record and its unlikely that it could ever be properly tested. However, I feel that in essence it's likely to be the best hypothesis we can get for the origins of the Holme Valley Goddards.
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I'm afraid you have completely lost me!!
Margaret
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I'm afraid that was a rapid brain-dump of a good few months work, mostly quite a lot of years ago so it probably wasn't as well organised as it might have been. It will probably be easier for you to work through it yourself.
I suggest you look for the earliest mention of a William Goddard in Almondbury parish register & then work through all the Goddard references up until the end of the C17th. I used the transcripts published by the YAS (Yorkshire Archaeological Society). I think Ancestry has the same material but that will lack the additional detail provided by the introductory notes of the YAS volumes, e.g. there was a gap of a few years during the Civil War as the vicar wasn't replaced when he died. I'm also not sure how Ancestry deals with baptisms in the chapels so you might not have quite as much information as I had from the YAS.
It's mentioned elsewhere in this thread that there were two William "Goddart"s in "Holmfirth" in the hearth tax. In that context "Holmfirth" would mean the townships of Upperthong, Austonley, Holme, Cartworth, Wooldale, Hepworth and Fulstone. This was an administrative area, a graveship, in the manor of Wakefield (a grave was an official, nothing to do with burials). The chapelry of Holmfirth was the same set of townships except for Fulstone which presumably was close enough to Kirkburton that its inhabitants would be expected to attend church there. The first 3 townships were in Almondbury parish, the remainder Kirkburton. As regards the hearth tax, this would be consistent with the William Goddards being in Upperthong.
I'll add that at a manorial court held on 19 Apr 1665 William Goddard junior was a sworn man for Upperthong.
See what you can make of the data from the PRs & those few items from non-ecclesiastical sources & how they connect with the people named in the will transcript & I'll drop by here in a few days so we can compare notes. I think you'll be able to extend your line back from Ellen Goddard by a few generations.
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Hoowood in Austonley was where many of my Tinker relatives lived and farmed.
A few stones still exists but the dwellings are mostly UNDER the resevoir which was built and flooded the location. If you park in the car park at the bottom of the hill before the resevoir and walk along the footpath you will note the wall quality is quite high after a while and there are some large gate stones leading nowhere.