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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: wini on Friday 28 February 14 10:43 GMT (UK)
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I am reading a book called "The Drummonds of Hawthornden" it is about the Hawthornden in the Toodyay Valley in west Australia.
James Drummond was born in Hawthornden in Scotland in 1784.
I have googled this and can only find a Hawthornden Castle in Midlothian.
Is there a village by that name ?
That is the only mention until he moves at 22 to be curator of the Botanical Gardens in Cork
wini
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wini, not answering your question, but futher notes on James Drummond such as here www.forfarbotanists.org/jamesdrummond.html
Has anyone had any success tracing his birth or family?
Monica
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Would this be his entry perhaps? https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYJZ-FPX See his father and brother were both called Thomas https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYJZ-DBXwww.abcbookworld.com/view_author.php?id=8548
Submitted entry here for James and family https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/3M38-RR5
Monica
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Hi wini,
I used to work in this area, and can remember streets in Bonnyrigg starting with Hawthornden, so I think they were just named after the castle, which is a lovely building. I cannot remember a village .
Look at this link, http://www.rootschat.com/links/0y83/
There is a lot of history attached to the castle.
Tom
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I have googled this and can only find a Hawthornden Castle in Midlothian.
Is there a village by that name ?
No. Hawthornden is quite close to the village of Rosewell.
See
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NT2863
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NT2963
http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/51802/details/hawthornden+castle/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Drummond_of_Hawthornden
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Tom and Forfarian, with confirmation of the location of Hawthornden, still cannot see the connection to James Drummond chr. Jan 1787 in Inverarity and Methy, Angus. Is there anything remotely similar to that in that parish I wonder?
Reading their stories, what a fascinating life these men had. My husband's great grandfather was curator of the Royal Botanic Gardens in Calcutta. Amazing lives of a period.
Monica
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Tom and Forfarian, with confirmation of the location of Hawthornden, still cannot see the connection to James Drummond chr. Jan 1787 in Inverarity and Methy, Angus. Is there anything remotely similar to that in that parish I wonder?
Well, there are quite a lot of big houses in Angus, not dissimilar to Hawthornden. One of these is Foth(e)ringham, but I have no knowledge of a Hawthornden in Angus, and certainly not in Inverarity.
The fact that James Drummond named his Australian property Hawthornden suggests to me that he believed himself to be connected to the Drummonds of Hawthornden. Perhaps his father Thomas had come from there to work at Fotheringham? Though I suspect it would be more than a little difficult to prove it :(
I see a marriage of Thomas Drummond to Elizabeth Nicoll in Inverarity in 1786. If this Thomas is a gardener, it could be his marriage. There are three other baptisms of Drummonds in Inverarity: Margaret 1788; Euphemia 1790; Thomas 1793. The fact that there are no other Drummonds in Inverarity does suggest that Thomas had moved there from some other place.
(Wild and improbable speculation: could Elizabeth Nicoll have been connected to William Nicol, inventor of the Nicol prism? William Nicol came from Midlothian, not far from Hawthornden, and a relative of his, Jean Nicol, was the wife of Edward Sang, one of a large dynasty of Sang gardeners, and the author of various gardening books. He also edited The Planter's Kalendar, published in 1812, the work of Walter Nicol, who had died in 1811. Walter too was 'a near and an esteemed relation' of Jean Nicol, though Sang, annoyingly, does not specify the exact relationship. )
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I found this pdf connected with younger son Thomas www.forfarbotanists.org/thomas_drummond_detail.pdf From that I am reading that Thomas Snr was already head gardener at Fotheringham House by the time younger Thomas was born. The marriage for parents took place in Inverarity on 18th March 1786 and then first born son James born towards the end of year/very early 1787 (with the christening being the date it was). Maybe OPR images could provide some place names.
Monica
Added: Found an image for the marriage of Thomas Drummond and Elizabeth Nicol from March 1786....one of those very much poor one liners :-\
Also found an image to James' christening in early Jan as showing above. Only father named as we saw from Family Search index, and Thomas father refered to a gardener...so right entry we would think.
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I wonder whether any of the baptisms of the Drummond children list witnesses, and if so whether they are informative?
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Hi Monica and Forfarian,
I spent sometime going through the NAS for Drummond's of Hawthornden, and I get the impression that they were quite influential, one of them, William, has many letters to Bishops etc., so I don't get the impression that they were gardeners.
However I could not find a birth or baptism for James Drummond in 1784, there is one in 1788 at nearby Dalkeith but no way of proving it to be the correct one.
I am not sure of any connection between Drummond's of Hawthornden and Fotheringham, Angus.
Tom
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Ahhh...separate topic...NAS is up and running again ;) ::)
Tom, everything I have seen, and there is a lot given how noted the two sons of Thomas Snr, James and Thomas Jnr were, points to their births in Angus in late 1786/7 and 1793. Can't see any reference for this generation to Midlothian at all so far :-\
Forfarian, no reference to witnesses or sponsors for christening to James b. late 1786/7. The register seems to be one of those one liners, in this case, not even mentioning the mother's name...as was the marriage in for Thomas Snr and Elizabeth Nicol mentioned earlier. The Clerk obviously believe in brevity ::)
Monica
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If this book ref is correct www.rootschat.com/links/0y8d/, there is a relevant Drummond connection to Perthshire (sourced as the immedicate location for the family lines we are looking at) and 'the Drummonds from Hawthornden' but likely (if connected) some generations back...
Monica
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If this book ref is correct www.rootschat.com/links/0y8d/, there is a relevant Drummond connection to Perthshire (sourced as the immedicate location for the family lines we are looking at) and 'the Drummonds from Hawthornden' but likely (if connected) some generations back...
Yes, Drummond Castle at Muthill in Perthshire http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NN8418 (with gardens http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NN8417) is a principal seat of the Drummonds, and I imagine the Drummonds of Hawthornden are related.
However the name of James' property in Australia must point to his connection being via the latter rather than directly to the former, surely?
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Hard to say at this stage I think :-\ Thomas Snr. is given as being born in Perthshire from other people's research. From earlier - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/3M38-RR5
Monica
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That looks perfectly possible, but it is from a tree submitted to Family Search. I never trust anything that is in a submitted tree - I use it as a pointer for possible future research, and I would want to see some sort of proof that it really is the correct Thomas Drummond, and not just that someone has found a likely-looking candidate and decided it must be the right one.
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Thanks everyone. I have just started the book so will see if I glean any further information.
My interests is not the Drummonds per se but the district here in Toodyay.
Looking at the illustrations there is a John Nicol , Euphemia MacKintosh and a Ewan MacKintosh, so as I go throught the book I will let you know what I find
wini
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Hi,
I noticed your interest in The Drummond Family from Hawthornden, Lasswade, Miodlothitian. The following link maybe of some help. I have copied & pasted the interesting part from the link below.
Incidentally, my 3xG.Grandmother, Agnes Currie from Lasswade, gave birth to an illegitimate son in 1821 at Hawthornden, she was employed as a servant at Hawthornden House. I now live not far from there, but I lived for a few years in Cupar, Fife, where Hill of Tarvit House is sited.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Jane Joy
http://www.clanmacfarlanegenealogy.info/genealogy/TNGWebsite/getperson.php?personID=I3628&tree=CC
Scot was three times married: first, to Anne, sister of William Drummond of Hawthornden, the poet, by whom he had two sons and seven daughters; secondly, to Margaret, daughter of Sir James Melville of Hallhill; and thirdly, to Margaret Monpenny of Pitmilly, widow of Rigg of Aitherny, by each of whom he had one son. The son by his second wife, George Scott (died 1685), is known as a writer on America.
Sir John's male descendants became extinct in the person of Major-general John Scot, M.P. for Fife, his great-great-grandson, who, at his death on 24 January 1776, was reputed the richest commoner in Scotland. The general's fortune passed chiefly to his eldest daughter, who married the Duke of Portland, but the estate of Scotstarvet was sold to Wemyss of Wemyss Hall .
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_John_Scott_of_Scotstarvet]
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My wife is descended from Euphemia Drummond, sister of botanists James and Thomas Drummond (both of whom have biographies on Wikipedia). I note Euphemia is listed on the FamilySearch tree mentioned. She is buried at Inverarity, sharing a memorial with her daughter and son-in-law. I've seen the book about James Drummond and his house Hawthornden in W Australia. The book provides no evidence, other than family tradition, of a link to the Drummonds of Hawthornden (Midlothian, family mausoleum in Lasswade).
From the other end, I've looked at genealogical information about the Drummonds of Hawthornden (whose separation from the Drummond Castle Drummonds was way back, 1300s/1400s, I think). The family boasts the poet Drummond of Hawthornden active c1650, whose fame would make for an attractive genealogical connection. However, I could not find any convincing line leading to the Inverarity Drummonds. Indeed the Hawthornden lairdship died out in the male line, though the husband of the inheriting daughter took the name and title.
The FamilySearch tree mentioned claims parents and grandparents for Thomas sr, but I don't have access to any supporting evidence or documentation. The claimed grandfather, also Thomas Drummond, married in Edinburgh in 1706, which would provide a possible link to Hawthornden, if valid.
There is Forfar Botanists garden in the town, which marks the lives and achievements of James and Thomas Drummond, as well as of a gardener named Don (ancestor of BBC gardening presenter Monty Don). It features some of the many plants named in their honour.
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a gardener named Don (ancestor of BBC gardening presenter Monty Don).
Don was more than just 'a gardener' - he was actually quite famous.
There is a biography on the web site of the Royal Botanic Garden Edinburgh where he was Superintendent from 1802 to 1806, but I can't work out what the full URL is - google for George Don and click on www.rbge.org.uk/assets/files/science/.../GB235GDS_GeorgeDon_Sr.pdf