RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: rutht22000 on Saturday 01 March 14 13:11 GMT (UK)
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This particular gentleman has caused several family tree tracing relatives so many headaches over the last decade or so that we are wondering whether we either to give up or throw ourselves on the mercy of others to try and find him!
He was born, according to the census in Amsterdam around 1818 - give or take a couple of years either way- and was said to be Jewish. There is a family story that they were Cohanim and he had one brother who was a Rabbi and the brother and he came to England (or Scotland- Aberdeen particularly) as late teenagers. The brother was supposed to have ended up in London)
On 1 October 1839 he married Margaret Evans at Holy Trinity Church Liverpool, giving his father as Solomon Hart, an optician. We do know he changed his name but from what we don't know, save that his youngest son Herbert was nicknamed Hertzie supposedly in deference to the original family name. Margaret was not Jewish and he was said to have been disowned by his brother/family on marriage and anglicized himself.
He died on 25 January 1877 in Liverpool.
I have all of his 11 children and have been able to follow them forward but its his birth/family backwards that is stumping us and years later we are still going round in circles.
I can't find any naturalisation records for him (even though it says on one census he was naturalised) and none of his documentation that exists in the UK helps.
There is one Salomon Hartog, born right place and right time, that we have found is definitely not him as that one marries in the Netherlands and dies there.
Fresh eyes (or patience!) is needed and if anyone has any thoughts, they would be very gratefully received ;D
Thanks
Ruth
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when he died in 1877 in Liverpool - did freebmd give an age ??
added....ok just checked - aged 58
so he was born 1819 .....unless he was born Jan 1st - jan 24th 1818...
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Just to confirm - he's definitely not Solomon Jacob Hart who naturalised in 1870?
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Hi
It looks like Solomon Jacob Hart was resident in Leicester with wife(?) Eleanor, so probably not the right one :-\
Third notice in left-hand column:
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/23828/pages/632
KR
Gaie
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Just to confirm - he's definitely not Solomon Jacob Hart who naturalised in 1870?
Hello
No that's not him. He didn't budge out of Liverpool
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Going by the nickname "Hertzie" have you tried the variations Herzl, Hertz, Herzlein, Her(t)zig? They are all Jewish names.
Peonie
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Hi Peonie
We've tried just about everything for him although admittedly not Herzlein or Her(t)zig.
Tried Hartog, Hertog, even swapping his name around and thinking Solomon or Salomon might actually be his surname instead.
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Hi Ruth,
H(e)art in German is Herz, so any variations of that could be possible.
Peonie
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If you've been working on this for over a decade, you've probably already looked at Akevoth (or its predecessor), but worth a mention, just in case ...
http://www.dutchjewry.org
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Hi I am Solomon's great great grandaughter. My grandmother Lilian Hart told me that his original surname was Hartzen or maybe Hertzen.
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Hi Jenny
I think that makes us cousins of some description! Solomon was my great great great grandfather. Lilian was my great grandfather Harry Montgomery Hart's 1st cousin.
We always thought it could be Hertz but I'd admit I had never thought of Hertzen or Hartzen. One more to check out! ;D
We can't send private messages on here until you have posted 3 times as you are a new poster (just reply twice to this email and it should let you do it) and I can give you my email address. I've got quite an extensive tree from Solomon downwards which I am happy to share
Speak soon :)
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That's great to hear. I still love in Merseyside and interestingly have just been away with 6 of my first cousins all of whom are Solomon's great grandchildren!
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Obviously that should have read 'live on Merseyside ' ! I remember quite a few of my Gran's siblings, but she never mentioned any uncles or aunts so that's a big gap in my knowledge.
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I think I can probably fill some gaps in for you ;)
Will send you a private message now ;D
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For some reason I am having trouble sending a private message even though it worked yesterday. I have sent an email.
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Hello, I am Solomon Hart's ggg granddaughter. I am the granddaughter of Edith Frances Hart. I hope to find some 'cousins' here. Do any of you have a GEDmatch Genesis number? My g grandfather was George Hart born about 1845. I am hoping for any information and maybe some photos? Thank you.
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I am the granddaughter of lilian Hart so Solomon's great great granddaughter. Your grandmother could have been my grandmother's niece or second cousin.
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Thank you for responding so quickly. I have dabbled in my family genealogy for several years but only become more interested since I retired. I wonder if it is possible to find out if Solomon came into Liverpool on a ship, which would seem logical?
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Here is my third post. Do you think Solomon came to England with a sibling, because I can't imagine why he would come by himself?
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Hi I am Solomon's great great grandaughter. My grandmother Lilian Hart told me that his original surname was Hartzen or maybe Hertzen.
Hi,
I landed on this topic out of curiosity. I don't have Dutch roots but did have trouble discovering my Hanovarian roots on mainland Europe.
As you now know the surname, have you enquired whether there are any legal documents in the Amsterdam "Notarial Records" to see if there is mention of the family? As described about a third of the way down in this document
http://files.lib.byu.edu/family-history-library/research-outlines/Europe/Netherlands.pdf
"Notarial records often do not contain their own indexes. Fortunately, the Dutch archives are
indexing the notarial records. Always check for the existence of indexes before using the records. Large towns had several notaries at one time. Cumulative indexes for these places will save you an enormous amount of time. For example, such indexes have been created for Amsterdam, Breda, Dordrecht, Haarlem, ’s-Gravenhage, Rotterdam, and Utrecht.
While you will find all kinds of legal documents in notarial records, the most useful for genealogical
research include:
• Wills [testamenten]
• Marriage contracts [huwelijksvoorwaarden].
• Divisions of estates [boedelscheidingen or akten van scheiding en deling]. "
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Hi I've never really looked into all this but did see on a tv documentary that many European Jewish people did come to Liverpool in the 19th century because the city was booming. According to my grandmother the original surname was Hartzen or similar.
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Hi I've never really looked into all this but did see on a tv documentary that many European Jewish people did come to Liverpool in the 19th century because the city was booming. According to my grandmother the original surname was Hartzen or similar.
Surnames were introduced at varying decades across Europe in the 11th century.
The Germanic tribes included a "z" in their names but I've never seen a Dutch name which usually had a "j" so would be something like = Hertje.
If the ancestor was born in Amsterdam it might indicate that the family were crossing European mainland with the intention of settling in the U.K.
This familysearch web page lists Surname Distribution Maps of the Netherlands and Germany
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Surname_Distribution_Maps
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If I remember well, during the French occupation of the Netherlands, Napoleon ordered that everybody without a last name had to choose one.
http://langenberg-laagland.com/showmedia.php?mediaID=76
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I just saw these posts on Solomon Hart. He was my 3rd great grandfather. His daughter Hannah married my 2nd great grandfather Samuel Kenney Gardham. Like all those in these posts, I am having difficulty trying to figure out who Solomon's parents were. Several family trees in Ancestry.ca have his parents listed as Machiel Meijer de Hart and Betje Salomon Swijt. I have not been able to confirm that. Are there any updates on the search for Solomon's parents?
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Hi Dawn,
My 3rd grandfather was Solomon Hart. I don't think the people you mentioned are his parents, since he listed his father's name as Solomon. I heard from someone that he came to England with a brother who went to London and became a Rabbi there. I recently had my DNA tested and have a small percentage of Jewish, and a some unidentified Iberian. I am wondering if Solomon was a Sephardic Jew, since there was a thriving colony in Amsterdam, and some of Solomon and Margaret's daughters have Spanish names? I think most of our information is speculative, I hope one day someone tracks him and his family down.
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Nothing ventured, Nothing gained ... Have you had a look at this possibility yet?
Hartog Salomon Stuart/Swart/Offenbach b abt 1784 Amsterdam NH (https://www.dutchjewry.org/genealogy/ashkenazi/17142.htm )
X 22 Dec 1811 Amsterdam NH (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLMV-6KMW )
Mietje/Maria Alexander Haring b abt1792 Amsterdam NH, d 3-09-1818 Amsterdam NH (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QP34-NK88 )
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I was able to find 3 children:
Hanna Stuart b 10-7-1813 Middelharnis ZH (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6114-2Q?i=46&cc=1576401&cat=109570 )
Judic Hartog Stuart b 10-8-1815 Amsterdam NH (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2HF-W9F2 ), d 8-4-1817 Amsterdam (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPWR-2HQD )
Salomon Hartog Stuart b 14-4-1817 Amsterdam NH (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLW7-M4GW )
I cannot find Hartog and Salomon after Mietje’s 1818 death. Could an emigration explain this?
Note: Hartog was not an”optician”(although he could have changed his occupationafter 1817) and I haven’t been able to finda rabbi brother in London. However, I did find a cousin of Salomon Stuart in London: Salomon Alexander Haring b 27 April 1821 Amsterdam, occ: boot/shoemaker (son of Salomon Alexander Haring and Mietje (Hartog) Boekverkoper; see: https://www.dutchjewry.org/genealogy/ashkenazi/7616.htm )
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Thank you ;D as you said nothing ventured nothing gained! He is also my 3rd great grandfather.
Solomon did name his eldest daughter Hannah and his youngest daughter had the middle name Maria. Its certainly something to go on. The cousin could easily be a mangled version of the brother story particularly if they were close
I do know he certainly isn't the son of Machiel and Betje as their Solomon died at about 7 or 8 months old so the Anc trees aren't right.
Something to investigate when I get home tonight ;D ;D
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At least it gives you something to play with. There were more possibilities, but I was able to reject those myself.
Note: I’ve already checked 3x 10-year Amsterdam tables (1813-1842) for the deaths of Hartog, Salomon and (H)Anna Stuart, but so far nothing useful has turned up.
PS there could have been more than 3 children, so the rabbi story can still be true
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My Jewish great great grandfather also.lived.in liverpool in 1900
His first names were Samuel Lazurus UK but on USA naturalization document its Solomon Loser and first record of him in Manchester was MEndel
I didn't think it was same person til found some Jewish records where he was MEndel.Leizer which led us back 2 further gengerations
Just goes to show keep options open
Also he had a child who died and gave subsequent child same name ..so don't rule out that possibility .
And his second wife had same surname as his first.
Looks like you have plentybof relatives to help get teeth into this one .
Good luck sorting it out .
Dna links may prove or disprove some of your theories
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Thank you all - yes there are lot of us trying to get the bottom of him...some on here and a lot who aren't ;D ;D
The European Jewish element of my DNA came up as 3% and 4% French, rest is English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh.
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@ rutht22000
I raised a query on a Dutch forum re the post 1818 Dutch whereabouts of Salomon Hartog Stuart (and his family). Up till now no one seems to have been able to find him, so he is still very much in the running for a possible emigration....
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I’ve got a few things that could be circumstantial, but are definitely worth being mentioned …
1.
When you look at Solomon Hart’s signature on his 1839 marriage in Liverpool, it is obvious that his style is quite different from the other signatures on the page (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99DF-S4C?i=334&cat=552592 ). However, his writing style seems to be quite similar to his “maybe father” Hartog Salomon Stuart. I’d already given these links but - for example - here is the birth of Hanna Stuart again: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6114-2Q?i=46&cc=1576401&cat=109570 )
2.
As 3 members of the Stuart family had disappeared after 1818, I’d been searching for all of them. Most of the Hanna(h)s born in Holland could be eliminated, but one caught my eye:
This Hannah was born some time around 1814 in Amsterdam and died in 1901 in Row/Rhu (Argyll and Bute, Scotland). At an early age Hannah had settled with her family in Glasgow where she married a Philip Asher. In the 1838 directory Philip Asher is a stationer and general agent, Mrs. P. Asher is a furrier and they are living at 5 King Street Glasgow. They had a few children with the first(?) one born on 16 Feb 1837 in Glasgow. His name was Asher Asher, an MD who became Secretary to the United Synagogue in London (is this the Rabbi connection?). I won’t elaborate on him as you can google him yourself.
According to an entry on findagrave this Hannah was born on 19 Jul 1815 (https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/159123820/hannah-asher ). This is not the same as Hannah Stuart’s DOB, but I would not rule out this Hannah (and Glasgow) just yet as her year of birth changes per census and because there is also the following:
- Only 47 Jews were living in Glasgow in the Government Census of 1831 and only 3 of these were born in Holland (could these have been our 3 Dutch Stuarts?)
- Among the “LIST OF INTERMENTS IN THE JEWS' BURIAL PLACE AT THE ELAYON NECROPOLIS” (Glasgow): 7- 9-1840 Solomon Hart - age 54 years
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What is the age difference between solomon Hart and his maybe father Harting solomon ?
Is there any chance they could actually be 1 person
I say this because my great great grandfather was a chameleon. .he first turned up in female coluse of census
In Manchester 1901
On the jewish records for for births of his children his names are inverted
And although he was b1850 in 1901 he was down as aged 36 so we thought he couldn't be father of the.30 year old living a few doOrs down.
I've just made breakthrough with joining some dots to his wife
The clues were in the children's names.including ones who'd died as babies .hunches that 1st sons and daughters would be named after their 4 grandparent.s turned out spot on !
I increased my tree and increased new matches
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Which Solomon Hart ... The one in Liverpool or the one who died in Glasgow?
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Thank you TreeSpirit for looking deeper into this one - I am so grateful. The Glasgow connection looks really feasible as does the Rabbi connection with a nephew rather than a brother, particularly as well know how mangled and embellished family stories get that have been picked up over the years.
It certain satisfies Scotland, Rabbi and if the mother was dead that could have been embellished to orphaned. that too could well be Hanna; I don't place much faith in the birth dates as when they are given when someone dies they are only as reliable as the person who registers the death.
I will see if ScotlandsPeople assists particularly with that death 1840 for possibly Solomon Snr. It make sense that if father and son came over together when the children were young that father might also anglicise himself as well.
I had noticed the writing between Hanna's baptism and Solomon's marriage certificate in Liverpool - they are very similar.
I have googled Asher Asher and there is a photo online- and he does have what my mother described as 'Hart eyes and eyebrows'!! - he does look like my great grandfather.
They did strike me as quite a well to do educated family and Solomon marrying out of the faith suggests that they could easily have disowned him.
Thank you again :)
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Hannah's maiden name would be on my wish list, but I haven't been able to find an online marriage for her. You could try her death certificate as it might have some clues (although the index seems to indicate that her mother's name is not on it. Of course this could be a clue that her mother had died when Hannah was still quite young).
Keep me updated as I'd love to know whether this (at least 18 year old) brick wall has finally buckled.
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One more thing. Compare the Hart and Asser childrens names. There are various similarities ... eg both families have a "HERTZ"
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I think it may be buckling....I have just found Hanna in 1851/1861 in Scotland with her Asher children and at least 4 of her kids are named the same as Solomon's (Amelia, Rosetta, William and Hertz).
I wonder if he was more in contact with his family after his father died than we thought.... ;)
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Great find
the wonderful thing about Scotlands people is that you can do searches before purchasing when you do buy certs they show mothers maiden name occupations and cause of death
.
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It is looking very promising, but a bit more proof is needed first. Although I have to be honest ... if it isn't this family then I wouldn't have clue which other Dutch family to pick for Liverpool Solomon.
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It is looking very promising, but a bit more proof is needed first. Although I have to be honest ... if it isn't this family then I wouldn't have clue which other Dutch family to pick for Liverpool Solomon.
No, this is the one that has thrown up the most evidence that Liverpool Solomon is the one we are after. I think Hanna's son Hertz was also known as Henry and ends up in New York. His papers give his mother as Hannah Hart, father Philip Asher. They were very fond of changing their names....
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His papers give his mother as Hannah Hart, father Philip Asher.
Ooh where did you find Hanna's maiden name?
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4 children with same names is very strong clue to same grandparents
Are they same order and similar ages ?
My scots grandmother had 3 cousins same names as her siblings including some of the middle surnames I
Mary Blaine Stevenson
Isa Hart STEVENSON
Peggy Love STEVENSON
& they were similar ages but her cousins spelt her middle name Blane
Very easy to mix them up til they got married
I expect your Harts will all start unravelling quickly now ..look forward to hearing progress
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Just found his NY death and the 1910 census confirms his Scottish background. It also says that his mother is Scottish, but I'm happy to ignore that
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His papers give his mother as Hannah Hart, father Philip Asher.
Ooh where did you find Hanna's maiden name?
its on Familysearch - New York, New York City Municipal Deaths, 1795-1949
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4 children with same names is very strong clue to same grandparents
Are they same order and similar ages ?
My scots grandmother had 3 cousins same names as her siblings including some of the middle surnames I
Mary Blaine Stevenson
Isa Hart STEVENSON
Peggy Love STEVENSON
& they were similar ages but her cousins spelt her middle name Blane
Very easy to mix them up til they got married
I expect your Harts will all start unravelling quickly now ..look forward to hearing progress
yes - all the kids are being born at the same time through late 1830s to 1860s. Hanna's kids with the same names are all older than Solomons
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Hanna's death certificate gives her father as Solomon Hart, Chemist and mother is deceased
Philip's death certificate gives him as husband of Hannah Hart. Philip's father was a Rabbi
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I think that every descendant of Liverpool Salomon who has spent years searching for their ancestor's background should by me a drink ... I suspect that I'd end up very drunk!! LOL
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Definitely - you are owed drinks from Liverpool and various other parts of the UK, Hawaii, several from New Zealand, New York and various bits of Canada as well ;D ;D ;D
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No Australia? ... oh well I'll have to settle for NZ
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Actually yes ;D Two of the NZ Harts ended up in New South Wales.
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Getting closer ;D ;D ;D Although Liverpool (UK, not NSW) would be better as it's a great place to visit.
BTW Once you are really really really sure that Liverpool Solomon = Salomon Hartog Stuart and you are ready to tackle the Dutch archives, feel free to contact me reg help for navigation and Dutch language ...
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I will do. I am just following Hanna forward but will start to move backwards soonish
Thank you so much :) :)
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You are so very welcome ... it was sooo much fun (have you got a few more like this one?? ;))
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You are so very welcome ... it was sooo much fun (have you got a few more like this one?? ;))
thankfully at the minute, no! ;D I don't fancy another 18 odd years trying to find another one like Liverpool Solomon... ;D He was my one out of all of them that was a true blank.
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Hello,
I have a very strong lead on Solomon Hart's genealogy. I have been following his DNA trail andnow have a positive match with a family lineage in Amsterdam.
Let me know if you are interested or have solved the mystery already.
John White
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Hi John
We think we've solved him but any confirmation would be more than welcome.
Are you related to him? (the White family connected to the Gardham family?)
Thanks
Ruth
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I would not mind knowing whether the DNA matches up with "our" possible Dutch family ...
Keep me informed ...! ;D
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I would not mind knowing whether the DNA matches up with "our" possible Dutch family ...
Keep me informed ...! ;D
;D ;D
I certainly will!
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I am a descendent of Solomon Hart and Margaret Evans through their daughter Hannah Mary Hart. My mother’s name is Roma Pearl Gardham. The DNA match I have found is to Rachel Salomon (1814-d.). Her husband’s name is Wolf Simon Winnik (1807-d.). Rachel’s father is Salomon/Zelig/Alexander (1785-1827) and his mother’s name is Mietje/Mink Hartog/Hirts. It appears that Solomon Hart of Liverpool may be one of Rachel’s male siblings-- Alexander Salomon Haring (1821-d.), Hartog Haring (1824-d.), or Moses Solomon Haring (1826-1891). Of these three brothers the only possibility is Hartog Haring.
For more information about Hartog Haring’s grandparents refer to this family tree: https://www.geni.com/family-tree/canvas/6000000007962441481.
It is possible that Solomon Hart is a child of one of the siblings of Salomon/Zelig Alexander or Mietje/Mink Hartog/Hirts. Refer to the Geni family tree for more information about them.
Please let me know how this compares with your research and if it confirms your conclusion.
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PS: It appears that Hartog Harings' brother Moses Salomon Haring did move from Amsterdam to London and died there in 1891 at the age of 64. His occupation is listed as Boot Maker. For more information on his descendants refer to https://gw.geneanet.org/herediasittig?lang=en&pz=bartolome&nz=heredia&p=mozes+salomon&n=haring
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It is possible that Solomon Hart is a child of one of the siblings of Salomon/Zelig Alexander or Mietje/Mink Hartog/Hirts. Refer to the Geni family tree for more information about them.
PS: It appears that Hartog Harings' brother Moses Salomon Haring did move from Amsterdam to London and died there in 1891 at the age of 64. His occupation is listed as Boot Maker.
I'd determined that a Salomon Alexander Haring b 27 April 1821, bootmaker was a relative. However, ... not a brother, but a cousin of Liverpudlian Salomon Hart (see page 3 of this topic)
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Hi John
Thank you for your reply.
I think Liverpool Solomon was a first cousin of the Haring siblings as far as I have been able to map out. I knew of Schoontje, Moses and Alexander Haring, children of Salomon Alexander Haring and Mietje Hartog Boekverkoper.
I hadn't found Rachel or Hartog Haring as yet but I haven't gone into them in detail quite yet, but if you have the DNA connection with Rachel knowing your connection to Liverpool Solomon then it is probably the right family.
Liverpool Solomon's mother seems to be Salomon Alexander Haring's younger sister, Mietje (Maria 1792 - 1818). I think her death triggered her husband Salomon Offenbach to take Liverpool Solomon and his sister Chana (Hannah) to Glasgow.
Speak soon
Ruth
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It is possible that Solomon Hart is a child of one of the siblings of Salomon/Zelig Alexander or Mietje/Mink Hartog/Hirts. Refer to the Geni family tree for more information about them.
PS: It appears that Hartog Harings' brother Moses Salomon Haring did move from Amsterdam to London and died there in 1891 at the age of 64. His occupation is listed as Boot Maker.
I'd determined that a Salomon Alexander Haring b 27 April 1821, bootmaker was a relative. However, ... not a brother, but a cousin of Liverpudlian Salomon Hart (see page 3 of this topic)
ooops....saw your reply after I'd posted mine ;D
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Great minds ...:-)
BTW Rachel is again a cousin of our Solomon, so that's why we never really looked at her
(here she is with her parents and (some of her?) siblings: https://www.dutchjewry.org/genealogy/ashkenazi/14300.htm)
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;D
Yes, I've just found Rachel and Hartog's births connecting to the Haring parents.
I'd noted a possible 2nd marriage for Rachel as well beyond Mr Winnik and your link confirms it
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I think John needs to go through the whole thought process of our research starting on page 3 of this topic (reply#25).
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Yes, the records do play them out as being cousins rather than Solomon being a Haring brother as do the family stories (that have been a bit twisted down the years!) but your brilliant research makes so much sense in the context of what we knew even without the records to back it up ;D
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Just a confirmation that those 3 Haring brothers can be ruled out:
Alexander (1821) and Mozes (1826) seem to end up as bootmakers in London.
Hartog (28-10-1824) dies only a few days old (bottom left: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939D-33NH-X?i=38&cc=2020117&cat=249698 )
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Thanks for that :)
There was a tree on Ancestry that Hartog dying at a few days old but couldn't find it yet (always forget about Familysearch....)
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I don't believe FS has Hartog's death listed in their available indexes, so you'd need to know how to locate the certificate ... !!
P.S. This research has been all about: when you can't prove that your assumptions are right, you'll have to prove that they aren't wrong ::)
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This may or may not be helpful. I believe Liverpool Solomon Hart is my 2nd great grandfather. According to 23andMe I share a 3rd great grandparent with the person I can trace to Rachel Haring. That would suggest our link is with that Rachel’s mother Mietje but not further back. It may be possible that that Liverpool Solomon Hart and Rachel Haring are cousins, but then we would not be linked by my 3rd great grandparents (perhaps 4th). Of course, it is quite 23andMe’s estimate may be out by one generation.
With regard to your note: “Liverpool Solomon's mother seems to be Salomon Alexander Haring's younger sister, Mietje (Maria 1792 - 1818). I think her death triggered her husband Salomon Offenbach to take Liverpool Solomon and his sister Chana (Hannah) to Glasgow.”
The names get confusing so I will only use those that occur on the Geni tree I linked previously. I think you are proposing that Liverpool Solomon’s mother and father are Mieje Alexander Haring (1792 -1818) and Hartog Solomon (Shlomo Swart Offenbach) (1784-d.). The Geni tree shows only one child of that marriage—Judic Hartog Stuart (1816-1817). The dates may be out but somewhere I have seen 1819 as the birth date of Liverpool Solomon. Is the death of Liverpool Solomon’s mother related to his birth?
In what year did Salomon Offenbach go to Glasgow?
I cannot see on the Geni tree Salomon Offenbach having a child named Chana (Liverpool Solomon’s possible sister). Where did you find information about Chana?
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Regarding the notes from page 3: it appears that Judic died at age 2. I wonder what became of Hanna Stuart and her father?
Hartog Salomon Stuart/Swart/Offenbach and Mietje/Maria Alexander Haring children:
I was able to find 3 children:
Hanna Stuart b 10-7-1813 Middelharnis ZH (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6114-2Q?i=46&cc=1576401&cat=109570 )
Judic Hartog Stuart b 10-8-1815 Amsterdam NH (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2HF-W9F2 ), d 8-4-1817 Amsterdam (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPWR-2HQD )
Salomon Hartog Stuart b 14-4-1817 Amsterdam NH (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLW7-M4GW )
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Regarding the notes from page 3: it appears that Judic died at age 2. I wonder what became of Hanna Stuart and her father?
Clearly you haven't continued reading the old replies in this post as you haven't grasped the bigger picture yet. Start at reply#25 on page 25 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=679362.msg6624835#msg6624835) and continue until reply#46 on page 6. Only read the replies by "TreeSpirit" and "rutht22000", the others are just white noise.
BTW never accept that someone's tree is complete or correct without checking and having seen the primary sources yourself. As you can see, I have given a great number of links to Dutch BDM certificates in order to prove my theories as much as possible. I have already been able to discount your favourite candidate "Hartog Haring" because he died as an infant. If you really think that there are better candidates than Salomon Hartog Stuart, give us the names and we'll look into them as well.
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Yes, you are right, I should have read your previous posts more carefully.
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Here is something else that may or may not be helpful—it relates to Reply #31 by TreeSpirit:
As 3 members of the Stuart family had disappeared after 1818, I’d been searching for all of them. Most of the Hanna(h)s born in Holland could be eliminated, but one caught my eye:
This Hannah was born some time around 1814 in Amsterdam and died in 1901 in Row/Rhu (Argyll and Bute, Scotland). At an early age Hannah had settled with her family in Glasgow where she married a Philip Asher. In the 1838 directory Philip Asher is a stationer and general agent, Mrs. P. Asher is a furrier and they are living at 5 King Street Glasgow. They had a few children with the first(?) one born on 16 Feb 1837 in Glasgow. His name was Asher Asher, an MD who became Secretary to the United Synagogue in London (is this the Rabbi connection?). I won’t elaborate on him as you can google him yourself.
I have found a woman with the same DNA segment that I share with a man who is related to Rachel Haring (b. 1814). She is a descendant of Sarah Lyon: http://www.ipswichwomensfestivalgroup.co.uk/ipswich-women/sarah-lyon/
This page from Wikitree (I know it may not be accurate) lists the daughter of Sara Lyon as being Unknown Titterman (b. about 1745) and the wife of Moshe Ansell. It lists the name of their child as Ansell Asher Ansell. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Titterman-1
I don’t have the expertise to go further with this. It would be interesting however if a link could be made between Ansell and Asher as it might confirm that Hannah (Haring) Asher is the sister of Liverpool Solomon Hart.
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Hi John
Hannah aka Chana (Asher) is the sister of Liverpool Solomon. I have been able to confirm it through the Glasgow records on Scotlandspeople and Asher Asher MD's story fits with a family story I was told except the story said that the connection to the United Synagogue was Liverpool Solomon's brother, although in reality was it was Liverpool Solomon's nephew and embellished a bit (Rabbi -v- Secretary). The only thing I can't find is the entry into the UK for the family as the alien arrival records for the right period were destroyed.
You may have seen the photograph of Asher Asher and there is a great family resemblance to pictures I have of Liverpool Solomon's descendants.
I'll have a look at your Lyon links just now.
Ruth :)
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Hi Ruth,
Thank you for that information. I did not realize that confirmation of Hannah and Solomon had been made. That helps a lot.
I am curious about the family resemblance you mention. I have a nice portrait of Hannah Hart (Liverpool Solomon's eldest child) and several of her children (my Uncles and Aunts) seem to have the similar features. Is there some way I can send you my photos and you can send me yours. (email?)
John
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Hi John
I've got a lot of photos for Hannah (Gardham's descendants), possibly the same as yours but I can send over others too.
We can't post email addresses on here so I will send you a personal message
thanks
Ruth
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The online info on Sarah “Lyon” and her family is a bit of a dog’s breakfast. Every site seems to have something different. My preferred (secondary) sources were the Jewish Chronicle and the Jewish Historical Studies.
My best assumptions without primary sources:
1 - We have an Ansell Asher Ansell who died 77y in abt 1835/6 (i.e. b abt 1758) (buried Ipswich Jewish Cemetery). Ansell was most likely married to a daughter(!) of Isaac Abrahams b abt 1732 who was probably the only child of Sarah Abrahams/Levy b abt 1703 (Lyon was her final married surname!). Sarah died 105y in 1808 (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/20180237/the_ipswich_journal/ )
Note: Sarah and Isaac might have used the surname Titterman but various sources seem to have had them listed as Abrams/Abrahams instead
2 - And than we have a Philip Asher born most likely abt 1800 in Poland and who was married to Hanna Hart (most likely Liverpool Soloman’s sister).
Conclusion: As far as I can see there is no close link between #1 and #2, although this does not meen that somewhere way down the line a person could not have descended from both of them. However, currently I would exclude Sarah Lyon and her family from our research as there is no obvious link to Liverpool Solomon.