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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: AussieWal on Monday 03 March 14 10:15 GMT (UK)

Title: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: AussieWal on Monday 03 March 14 10:15 GMT (UK)
My great great grandfather was Robert GRAY, born in Hackney London England, christened 22 Sept 1839.  His father was Daniel Charles Malcolm GRAY, born Hackney London 1 July 1810, christened 8th August 1810..  Daniel CM Gray's father was Malcolm GRAY.  Daniel CM Gray and his father Malcolm both were listed as Mariners.  What would Mariners do in Hackney?

Robert GRAY left for Australia sometime between the 1850 and 1860 census.  When he travelled to Australia is unknown.  There was a Robert GRAY listed as crew on the Lansdowne arriving in Sydney 6th February 1859 and also a Robert GRAY  listed as crewman on the Primula 1856, who then is listed in the NSW Police Gazette as deserting.

The first we see of Robert GRAY in my district of Molong/Yeoval is in 1861 with the birth of a "male" child to Jane Graham SINFIELD when Jane is 16 years old (from birth Certificate).  In 1867 Robert and Jane marry.  Robert made contact with his brother Daniel Malcolm in the 1890s from a letter placed by his brother Daniel.  Robert died in 1903 in Peak Hill.  Robert's extended family lived in the area extending from Wellington, Yeoval, Baldry, Obley and Peak Hill.

I would love to hear from anyone out there who are related to Robert GRAY.  I have not been able to trace Jane Graham SINFIELD family line.  A photograph of Bob Gray and family at the time of his son Robert GRAY's wedding shows that the extended family were of Aboriginal descent, whom my grandmother's line experienced the negativity from society at the time. 
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: Neil Todd on Monday 03 March 14 19:29 GMT (UK)
What would Mariners do in Hackney?

Barge Men on the Thames. The Thames was a very important trade route.

Neil
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: giblet on Monday 03 March 14 20:32 GMT (UK)
Seems like she didnt marry until she was of age re 1867. Maybe she was orphaned and had no one to sign a consent if she tried to marry beforehand.

Her second name Graham ... Possibly her mother's maiden name.

Do any of the certificates you have state where she was born?
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: majm on Monday 03 March 14 21:00 GMT (UK)
A photograph of Bob Gray and family at the time of his son Robert GRAY's wedding shows that the extended family were of Aboriginal descent, whom my grandmother's line experienced the negativity from society at the time.

NSW ER 1903 ROBERTSON, polling at Wellington
All with surname GRAY
Frances, of Hospital, nurse
George Henry, of Percy St, tailor
John, of  Nanima, Crescent Street, plasterer
Sara of Simpson street, domestic duties

NSW ER 1903 CANOBOLAS polling at Obley
All with surname GRAY
Eliza, of Obley, domestic duties
Emma, of Obley, domestic duties
Daniel, of Glenloch, Obley, labourer
Robert, senior, of Glenoch, Obley, farmer
Robert, of Glenloch, labourer
(Peak Hill and Molong were in the Canobolas electorate, but in 1903 none listed with surname GRAY at either polling place.   )
(178 people were enrolled to vote at Obley,  which included Yeoval, Obley Vale, Derowie Creek, Washpen, Greenbah, Goodrich, Wandoo Wandong, Chapman’s Flat, Wambangalang, Dilladerry, Jernie, Emmagool, Killaloolah, The Meadows,  Yoorooga, Timbil and other nearby addresses).

It was not compulsory to enrol to vote in NSW until the mid 1920s.  To be eligible to vote in 1903 you needed to be aged 21 years and over, and reside in the electorate, and be a British Subject.  The 1903 elections were in December, and this was the first election that females were eligible to vote.   Any person born in NSW was automatically a British Subject, without regard to their parents places of birth.   May I please note that Aborigines were of course eligible to enrol to vote in 1903.   For example, the Wellington roll includes persons whose address is recorded as Aborigines’ camp.   
(Edit to add these two AEC links)
Australian Electoral Commission "Indigenous Australians and the Vote" http://www.aec.gov.au/indigenous/indigenous-vote.htm
http://www.aec.gov.au/Education/files/history_indigenous_vote.pdf


There have been a number of threads at RChat that may be of interest, including these: 
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=342595.msg3834460#msg3834460
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=446687.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=524347.msg5178422#msg5178422

The NSW State Records has published a Guide online regarding their Archives relating to Aboriginal People. 
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/archives-relating-to-aboriginal-people/state-archives-relating-to-aboriginal-people 

Back in the convict era, a chap named William SINFIELD was transported to NSW on the Minerva in 1821.  In 1828 he was in an Iron Gang, working on the Bathurst Road, in the Bathurst district.  In 1843 his Ticket of Leave was issued in the Wellington District.   Do you have any connection for your Jane Graham SINFIELD and this chap?   


Cheers,  JM (Edit to add the AEC link)
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: majm on Monday 03 March 14 21:26 GMT (UK)
Re the 1861 NSW birth cert....


The first we see of Robert GRAY in my district of Molong/Yeoval is in 1861 with the birth of a "male" child to Jane Graham SINFIELD when Jane is 16 years old (from birth Certificate).  In 1867 Robert and Jane marry.   

Would you please type up the info from that registration.  You see, it should include the details provided by the informant as to when and where the couple were married, and also where each were born.     

You have them as marrying in 1867, yet the 1861 birth is indexed under the GRAY surname,  but NOT under the Sinfield surname, so I am a tad confused with the info you have posted.   

(Male) GRAY, parents given names: Robert and Jane registered Molong District. NSW BDM #9556

I notice that Robert and Jane G are listed as the parents for George GRAY whose birth was registered Molong in 1869 (#13483).   That birth cert should give you the details of all the older siblings for George, and of course the details about George's parents. 

NSW BDM has authorised official transcription agents.  This is a cheaper and quicker version of the NSW BDM birth cert, and is ideal for family history purposes.

 http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: majm on Monday 03 March 14 21:30 GMT (UK)
Re GRAHAM (Jane SINFIELD's middle name, following up on suggestion it may be a pointer to a surname
Her second name Graham ... Possibly her mother's maiden name.
)

National Directory 1867 WELLINGTON and LACHLAN districts
D. GRAHAM, Telegraph station master, Bendemeer.

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: Jennaya on Tuesday 04 March 14 08:03 GMT (UK)
Seems like she didnt marry until she was of age re 1867. Maybe she was orphaned and had no one to sign a consent if she tried to marry beforehand.

Or the parents may have been against the marriage. I know of cases where the parents refused to sign so the women had to wait until they were of age.
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: AussieWal on Thursday 06 March 14 01:51 GMT (UK)
Seems like she didnt marry until she was of age re 1867. Maybe she was orphaned and had no one to sign a consent if she tried to marry beforehand.

Her second name Graham ... Possibly her mother's maiden name.

Do any of the certificates you have state where she was born?

There is no indication at all about Jane Graham Sinfield parents or origin on the marriage certificate.  The witnesses are David Harper and John Harper.
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: AussieWal on Thursday 06 March 14 03:41 GMT (UK)
A photograph of Bob Gray and family at the time of his son Robert GRAY's wedding shows that the extended family were of Aboriginal descent, whom my grandmother's line experienced the negativity from society at the time.

NSW ER 1903 ROBERTSON, polling at Wellington
All with surname GRAY
Frances, of Hospital, nurse
George Henry, of Percy St, tailor
John, of  Nanima, Crescent Street, plasterer
Sara of Simpson street, domestic duties

NSW ER 1903 CANOBOLAS polling at Obley
All with surname GRAY
Eliza, of Obley, domestic duties
Emma, of Obley, domestic duties
Daniel, of Glenloch, Obley, labourer
Robert, senior, of Glenoch, Obley, farmer
Robert, of Glenloch, labourer
(Peak Hill and Molong were in the Canobolas electorate, but in 1903 none listed with surname GRAY at either polling place.   )
(178 people were enrolled to vote at Obley,  which included Yeoval, Obley Vale, Derowie Creek, Washpen, Greenbah, Goodrich, Wandoo Wandong, Chapman’s Flat, Wambangalang, Dilladerry, Jernie, Emmagool, Killaloolah, The Meadows,  Yoorooga, Timbil and other nearby addresses).

It was not compulsory to enrol to vote in NSW until the mid 1920s.  To be eligible to vote in 1903 you needed to be aged 21 years and over, and reside in the electorate, and be a British Subject.  The 1903 elections were in December, and this was the first election that females were eligible to vote.   Any person born in NSW was automatically a British Subject, without regard to their parents places of birth.   May I please note that Aborigines were of course eligible to enrol to vote in 1903.   For example, the Wellington roll includes persons whose address is recorded as Aborigines’ camp.   
(Edit to add these two AEC links)
Australian Electoral Commission "Indigenous Australians and the Vote" http://www.aec.gov.au/indigenous/indigenous-vote.htm
http://www.aec.gov.au/Education/files/history_indigenous_vote.pdf


There have been a number of threads at RChat that may be of interest, including these: 
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=342595.msg3834460#msg3834460
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=446687.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=524347.msg5178422#msg5178422

The NSW State Records has published a Guide online regarding their Archives relating to Aboriginal People. 
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/archives-relating-to-aboriginal-people/state-archives-relating-to-aboriginal-people 

Back in the convict era, a chap named William SINFIELD was transported to NSW on the Minerva in 1821.  In 1828 he was in an Iron Gang, working on the Bathurst Road, in the Bathurst district.  In 1843 his Ticket of Leave was issued in the Wellington District.   Do you have any connection for your Jane Graham SINFIELD and this chap?

Cheers,  JM (Edit to add the AEC link)

Thanks JM for all this impressive information.  The Wellington Grays are not known to me but all the Grays CANOBOLAS polling at Obley are relatives.  I did not know the voting and aboriginal information and I will read up of this from what you have pasted.  Thanks

It was known to me that William Sinfield was a convict.  I have traced Sinfield family coming to Australia, John and Ann Sinfield on the "John and Lucy" to Sydney NSW.  A William Southwood (Darlinghurst area) is recorded as being John Sinfield's uncle and William Sinfield as brother (Camperdown or Campeltown area).. No proven connection

Are you able to tell me whether there STEIN listed in the ORANGE area in 1903 Voters List.  Also in Wellington for STEIN for the same period?  Thanks..
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: Neil Todd on Thursday 06 March 14 04:18 GMT (UK)
Just did some checking on your Sinfield line and the possible parents are William and Lucy.
A William Sinfield died at Balmain Ref # 2493/1883 The age shown is 58 but these ages are notoriously wrong he would have been aged 62.

A William SINFIELD married in Luton Bedfordshire in 1841 at age 20. He is also down on BDM as born 1821.
In 1841 he is single and living with a male Tyson aged 20 and a family by the name of Gibbs. They are in the town of Dunstable Bedforshire on Luton Road.

Neil
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: Neil Todd on Thursday 06 March 14 04:24 GMT (UK)
I don't know where Newmarket is but a Lucy GRAHAM applied for a marriage license there in 1841 and also married there same year last quarter.

Neil
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: AussieWal on Thursday 06 March 14 04:39 GMT (UK)
Re the 1861 NSW birth cert....


The first we see of Robert GRAY in my district of Molong/Yeoval is in 1861 with the birth of a "male" child to Jane Graham SINFIELD when Jane is 16 years old (from birth Certificate).  In 1867 Robert and Jane marry.   

I empathise with your confusion..

Would you please type up the info from that registration.  You see, it should include the details provided by the informant as to when and where the couple were married, and also where each were born.     

You have them as marrying in 1867, yet the 1861 birth is indexed under the GRAY surname,  but NOT under the Sinfield surname, so I am a tad confused with the info you have posted.   

(Male) GRAY, parents given names: Robert and Jane registered Molong District. NSW BDM #9556

I notice that Robert and Jane G are listed as the parents for George GRAY whose birth was registered Molong in 1869 (#13483).   That birth cert should give you the details of all the older siblings for George, and of course the details about George's parents. 

NSW BDM has authorised official transcription agents.  This is a cheaper and quicker version of the NSW BDM birth cert, and is ideal for family history purposes.

 http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html

Cheers,  JM

I empathise with your confusion.  From the birth certificate 1861/009556 18 November 1861.  Name of child "Unnamed" male, Father: Robert Gray bushman Age: 21 Birth: Cape of Good Hope  It then states child as Illegitimate Previous Issue: none   Mother: Jane Graham Age: 16 Birthplace:  xxxx at Wellington  Informant:  Mrs Pinkerton at Obley  Witness:  Crapp

Yes I had noticed mother is stated as GRAHAM

My Robert and Jane's son Daniel (my gg grandfather) birth certificate lists Robert as born in London and 31 years old.  Jane is listed as Jane Graham, formerly Sinfield, being 26 years old and born at Obley NSW (which is in between Wellington and Parkes NSW)

On the marriage certificate the column of father and mothers names are empty, as well as their occupations.  Place of Residence is Yullandry (between Yeoval and Molong NSW).  Witnesses are David and John Harper. Jane signed with cross.  Robert signed name as GREY

I do not have Jane's death certificate but in the place where father is written it states online as "88 Year Old, Peak Hill" and mother is blank, so I do not imagine getting the certificate would shed any light on the details.

It is great to have other eyes to look over the details... because sometimes familisation breeds blindness.   Thanks
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: AussieWal on Thursday 06 March 14 04:43 GMT (UK)
Seems like she didnt marry until she was of age re 1867. Maybe she was orphaned and had no one to sign a consent if she tried to marry beforehand.

Her second name Graham ... Possibly her mother's maiden name.

Do any of the certificates you have state where she was born?

There is not parents listed on marriage certificate.  Certificates states born in Obley NSW. 

From you suggestion of adoption, and my knowledge of aboriginality in the family ... maybe she was aboriginal as well, but there is no wording on certificate as there is on other extended family members though.  Review other posts for fuller picture I had indicated there.  Thanks
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: majm on Thursday 06 March 14 08:05 GMT (UK)
Seems like she didnt marry until she was of age re 1867. Maybe she was orphaned and had no one to sign a consent if she tried to marry beforehand.

Her second name Graham ... Possibly her mother's maiden name.

Do any of the certificates you have state where she was born?

There is not parents listed on marriage certificate.  Certificates states born in Obley NSW. 

From you suggestion of adoption, and my knowledge of aboriginality in the family ... maybe she was aboriginal as well, but there is no wording on certificate as there is on other extended family members though.  Review other posts for fuller picture I had indicated there.  Thanks

The elusive blanks on NSW BDM marriage certs 1856-1895 have absolutely nothing to do with any suggestion about either the bride or the groom being adopted or any suggestion of Aboriginality.   They are simply still there simply because NSW BDM has NOT EVER finalised their own records.   They do explain this on their website.

http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh/bdm_rec.html

" 1912 ...... The Registry took this opportunity to request access to the 1856 to 1895 church marriages registers. Some Registry marriage records from these years recorded only the details pertaining to the parties to the marriage. Details of the parents had been left blank although they appeared in the Church registers. These registrations were amended and a notation made in the margin to record the circumstances of the amendment.

The task of reconciling the Early Church Records and amending the marriage registrations was never finalised. The Registry's records from these years are not complete and it can be worthwhile for genealogists to contact the relevant church to find details missing from a marriage certificate or in the case of a birth, a baptism record where there is no corresponding civil registration.

The lack of information is often found on rural/regional marriage registrations, and even on some metropolitan ones too."



Here is a thread I prepared some time ago, with info and pointers to overcome those hurdles.  A number of RChatters have found it to be helpful.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html

Cheers,  JM (NSW Centric)
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: majm on Thursday 06 March 14 08:13 GMT (UK)
birth certificate 1861/009556 18 November 1861.  Name of child "Unnamed" male, Father: Robert Gray bushman Age: 21 Birth: Cape of Good Hope  It then states child as Illegitimate Previous Issue: none   Mother: Jane Graham Age: 16 Birthplace:  xxxx at Wellington  Informant:  Mrs Pinkerton at Obley  Witness:  Crapp

Yes I had noticed mother is stated as GRAHAM

My Robert and Jane's son Daniel (my gg grandfather) birth certificate lists Robert as born in London and 31 years old.  Jane is listed as Jane Graham, formerly Sinfield, being 26 years old and born at Obley NSW (which is in between Wellington and Parkes NSW)

On the marriage certificate the column of father and mothers names are empty, as well as their occupations.  Place of Residence is Yullandry (between Yeoval and Molong NSW).  Witnesses are David and John Harper. Jane signed with cross.  Robert signed name as GREY


Re 1861 cert.  From that cert, what is the relationship recorded for Mrs Pinkerton and the male child?  What further info is on that document?   :)

Re Daniel's birth cert.  From that cert, when and where did the couple marry, and does the cert include details of ALL (including the 1861 born) of Daniel's siblings?  :)

Cheers,  JM  :)  (off to look up some early NSW Electoral Rolls and other hardcopy records, born and raised 'on the Lachlan' with a smackering of Yeoval, Carcoar, Condo and of Cobar and further west flowing through the veins  ;D

Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: majm on Thursday 06 March 14 08:21 GMT (UK)
Hi there,


NSW ER 1903 CANOBOLAS polling at Orange
All with STEIN
Ellen, Hill street, domestic duties
John Laurence, Kite Street, mail guard

May I offer a suggestion

NSW State Records Office has many archives, and only some have been indexed, and of those, most, but not all of those indexes are online.   May I suggest you look through the indexes, as you may well notice family members, and dates, locations, and pointers to various files (for example, just using the keyword “STEIN” sees lots of indexes, including Naturalisation, deceased Estates).  Deceased Estate files often have copies of NSW BDM certificates, these would likely have been submitted to the NSW Supreme Court for demonstrating relationships to the Probate court.   

http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-online 

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: majm on Thursday 06 March 14 08:52 GMT (UK)
Hi there,

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13057194    SMH 15 May 1861
Robert Gray of Molong, laterly of Kelso, publican ….. insolvency, Mr Sempill was the official assignee.
The actual file will be at SR NSW at Kingswood.  You can access these files.  They often have detailed addresses, and of course the full itemised accounts of the debtors assets and liabilities. 


Re John SINFIELD and William SINFIELD
Two chaps by those names signed a petition (John and then immediately thereafter, William) in July 1861.  This was in support of a Thomas HOLT a candidate for the NSW Electorate of Newtown.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13066936    SMH 10 July 1861


Re Cape of Good Hope.  (likely birthplace of Robert GRAY)
report in the newspapers in Sydney of a
Meteoric Shower …. Grahamstown…..predicted meteoric shower from the constellation Leo, with Mr SINFIELD, assistant observer  …..    So, SINFIELD and GRAHAMStown and Cape of Good Hope …  http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13140989  SMH 14 Feb 1867
Re the surname GRAY and Kelso/Bathurst district
1859 Petitions for/against Bathurst to be incorporated (municipality status sought)
Robert GRAY of Durham Street
George GRAHAM, household


Cheers,  JM. 
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: majm on Thursday 06 March 14 09:00 GMT (UK)
Hi there,

NSW ER 1878 WELLINGTON
Henry GRAHAM, residence Hill End
Farquhar GRAHAM, residence, Ironbarks
Roland GRAHAM, residence, Stony Creek
David GRAHAM, residence, Spicer’s Creek
Roland GRAHAM, junior, residence, Stony Creek
Duncan GRAY, residence, Mookerawa
John GRAY, residence, Curra Creek
George GRAY residence Macquarie River

Cheers,  JM. 
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: majm on Friday 07 March 14 00:05 GMT (UK)
Do you have a transcript or a copy of the Baptism of a Jane GRAHAM, listed at NSW BDM as 1845, with parents as James and Harriet?  Likely she had an older brother names John J, baptised 1843.

NSW BDM references:
V1845 3047  30A/1845 (Volume 30A is Church of England) Baptism for Jane
V1843 2635  27A/1843 (Volume 37A is Church of England) Baptism for John

This may be Jane's birth date and then his baptism at Gloucester, NSW
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCK-7JF 

This may be John J's birth date and then his baptism at Gloucester, NSW   (John J being John James)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCN-HK3


ADD
NSW ER 1870 THE BOGAN,

Molong Police District
Robert GREY (with an ‘e’) of Tinby, residence Buckinbah. 

Forbes Police District
William GRAHAM, of Currajong, residence, Currajong


Grevilles 1875 PO Directory

Wellington : John GRAY, farmer, Mitchell Creek
Dubbo : John GRAHAME (‘e’) grazier, Dillederry

Further ADD
http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=1&cid=11
GREVILLES 1872 for OBLEY includes :
GRAHAM J.stockman Dirribong, Bogan River
GRAHAM John farmer Obley
GRAY Robert labourer Buckenbah
HARPER David superintendent Gunanagei
HARPER William storekeeper Bogan River


Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: AussieWal on Friday 07 March 14 05:43 GMT (UK)
Do you have a transcript or a copy of the Baptism of a Jane GRAHAM, listed at NSW BDM as 1845, with parents as James and Harriet?  Likely she had an older brother names John J, baptised 1843.

NSW BDM references:
V1845 3047  30A/1845 (Volume 30A is Church of England) Baptism for Jane
V1843 2635  27A/1843 (Volume 37A is Church of England) Baptism for John

This may be Jane's birth date and then his baptism at Gloucester, NSW
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCK-7JF 

This may be John J's birth date and then his baptism at Gloucester, NSW   (John J being John James)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCN-HK3


ADD
NSW ER 1870 THE BOGAN,

Molong Police District
Robert GREY (with an ‘e’) of Tinby, residence Buckinbah. 

Forbes Police District
William GRAHAM, of Currajong, residence, Currajong


Grevilles 1875 PO Directory

Wellington : John GRAY, farmer, Mitchell Creek
Dubbo : John GRAHAME (‘e’) grazier, Dillederry

Further ADD
http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=1&cid=11
GREVILLES 1872 for OBLEY includes :
GRAHAM J.stockman Dirribong, Bogan River
GRAHAM John farmer Obley
GRAY Robert labourer Buckenbah
HARPER David superintendent Gunanagei
HARPER William storekeeper Bogan River


Cheers,  JM

Thanks.  On your list there is Robert Gray my GG Grandfather.  Under his name there is David Harper, who as one of the witnesses at his wedding long with a John Harper which I had not noticed to your pointed him out on that list.  Also present on your list were 2x Graham's who could have been Jane's father...  unproven by a far mile or two

The title superintendent when applied to David Harper seems to refer to the fact that David Harper was Manager of Gunanagei station. 

Robert Grey is my GG Grandfather because Tinby Station is listed as residence at the time of Daniel's birth in 1871.  At the time of his death, his surname is again spelt GREY, the only two occassions I have found so far.

As to the Graham finds at the start of your post, I have not investigated this to date.

Regards
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: majm on Saturday 08 March 14 10:22 GMT (UK)
Hi,

Re Jane GRAHAM, baptism 1845... I think this would be worth investigating .... it is the right year  :) and the right name  :) ....... and there have been flaws in transcribed records before  :) so Gloucester may be questioned.....  Alternatively, it is possible the circuit clergy may have been based in the Gloucester area (I am wondering if perhaps Australian Agricultural Co's clergyman may have taken a circuit out across say via what is now say Muswellbrook and across say to Gulgong, baptising and marrying along the way  :)   If so, then his parish registers may well record Gloucester Flats for his main location.

Cheers,  JM 
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: AussieWal on Tuesday 18 March 14 21:08 GMT (UK)
Hi,

Re Jane GRAHAM, baptism 1845... I think this would be worth investigating .... it is the right year  :) and the right name  :) ....... and there have been flaws in transcribed records before  :) so Gloucester may be questioned.....  Alternatively, it is possible the circuit clergy may have been based in the Gloucester area (I am wondering if perhaps Australian Agricultural Co's clergyman may have taken a circuit out across say via what is now say Muswellbrook and across say to Gulgong, baptising and marrying along the way  :)   If so, then his parish registers may well record Gloucester Flats for his main location.

Cheers,  JM

I can rule out the Graham family from Gloucester with the details contained in this link:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/81044360

Jane never married.
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: steven waibel on Saturday 07 June 14 02:06 BST (UK)
Hey mate...daniel grey who died in 1939 was the father of ellenore mary grey. Ellenore was the mother of Frederick John stein who is my grand father. Im  chasing some information on the greys as well and would love to talk with you your reply will be much appreciated thank you
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: JillH1952 on Tuesday 13 March 18 06:14 GMT (UK)
Hi,

My grandmother was Ada Jessie Gray.  She married Arthur John White on 25 October 1893.  Her father was Robert Gray, labourer of Glenrock or more likely Glenlock (it looks like Glenrock written on the marriage certificate) near Obley and her mother was Jeannie on the marriage certificate.  They were married in the house of Mr Robert Gray.  And I believe the photograph you refer to is most likely this wedding.

On the death certificate of Ada Jessie it is stated that her mother's name was Sarah Sinclair not Jeannie so a little confusion there.  Also Sinclair?

So is this Robert Gray the one male child (1861) to Robert Gray and Jane Sinfield? The years don't seem to add up.  If Robert was born in 1861 and had a daughter old enough to marry in 1893?  He would only have been 32 years of age himself.  Or is this the elder Robert Gray who you say was born in London in 1839 which would make him 59 years of age in 1893 when this marriage took place.  However I have been unable to find any record of the birth of a daughter Ada Jessie to either Robert Gray.

On the birth certificate of her third child in 1899 Ada Jessie White (Gray) informs her birth place as Bogan River and her age as 24 therefore she would have been 17 or 18 when she married Arthur John White.

Well we are definitely related.  Which child of Robert Gray and Jane Graham Sinfield is your great grandparent?

Hope you can shed a bit more light on this.  In the meantime I will try and dig some more

Cheers,

Jill Hargraves (nee White)









Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: wdlocky on Sunday 10 May 20 06:04 BST (UK)
Hi, I have just stumbled across this post whilst doing my husband's family history.  We have been stuck on his great, great, grandmother, Ada Jane Gray.

On her Qld marriage certificate in 1909 (she was age 22), we know that shew as born in about 1887 in Dubbo, NSW and it states her parents were John William Gray (Labourer) and Johanna Stanley.  But we have been unable to find any birth details for her (brn about 1887).

I am wondering if this is the same Gray family?  She was a domestic servant on a station in Longreach and married a roustabout there (a day after their son was born).

The older members of my husband's family never spoke about this lady (they were divorced in 1929 and their two children placed in an orphanage early on), but it was rumoured that she was of aboriginal descent.  My father-in-law always believed that she was Aboriginal but never asked his father so doesn't know.

Your earlier notes say that the Gray family you are talking about were of Aboriginal descent, that is why I am wondering if this is the same family. 

I know this is an old post, but hopefully someone here will read it and may have some answers for me.
Thanks
Deb
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: JillH1952 on Saturday 23 May 20 05:13 BST (UK)
Hi Deb, sorry no this is not the same Ada Gray that you are looking for.  Her name is Ada Jessie Gray and lived all her life in the Dubbo/Obley/Peak Hill area of NSW.

Her parents were Robert Gray and Jane Graham Sinfield.

Sorry cannot help.

Jill Hargraves
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: wdlocky on Wednesday 17 June 20 11:57 BST (UK)
Hi Deb, sorry no this is not the same Ada Gray that you are looking for.  Her name is Ada Jessie Gray and lived all her life in the Dubbo/Obley/Peak Hill area of NSW.

Her parents were Robert Gray and Jane Graham Sinfield.

Sorry cannot help.

Jill Hargraves

Thanks
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: AussieWal on Saturday 21 November 20 22:57 GMT (UK)
I am wondering if anyone has any information on a lady named Jessie Graham from Obley NSW who was assaulted in 1867 (image attached)

The accused was found to be not guilty.
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: majm on Sunday 22 November 20 05:21 GMT (UK)
WARNING ... I have typed up an expression that in today's world is a racist expression, it is an expression used in the 19th century newspapers to describe a person of a mixed race, so in the article it is about a lass with one parent of Aboriginal heritage and one parent of non Aboriginal heritage.   

I am wondering if anyone has any information on a lady named Jessie Graham from Obley NSW who was assaulted in 1867 (image attached)

The accused was found to be not guilty.

Yes,  please carefully read a paragraph at page 2 of the Sydney Mail of 27 July 1867 - heading is Ignorance and Depravity...  The lady you mentioned is actually a child, aged 'between thirteen and fourteen years of age' ... she had 'no idea of the nature of an oath' ... she  'did not know what the Bible was,' .... this ignorance means that her evidence about being assaulted was NOT admissible in a court of law in NSW in that era - for she was unable to swear on oath to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  Thus the court was not able to hear the victim's evidence - so the eventual verdict was always destined to be 'not guilty'...

However, significantly the article gives up some information about her mother...  "It also transpired that the prosecutrix's mother (so the mother of the 'little half-caste girl') was living in a state of adultery with a person who was then in (the) court (room), and who styled himself the "guardian" of the girl.  ....  Mr Marsh (JM notes he was the Police Magistrate at Dubbo) said that twenty-five years ago the licence of the very run on which those people resided was cancelled by the Governor on account of so many of the persons living on it in an adulterous state ...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/166795086

So we can draw from that cutting many pieces for the jigsaw puzzle that is of course researching on any aspect of Central West NSW family history in the colonial era.

1867 less 25 years =  1842 ... so a pastoral run under licence was withdrawn by Governor - that would be Sir George GIPPS - ruled NSW from 24 Feb 1838 until 11 July 1846.  - so even if the 25 years was 'iffy' ... it falls within the Gipps era.

1867 - her mum is co-habitating with a male who is easily recognised in the courtroom... - so Jessie GRAHAM is living with her own mother, and a male who considers himself the guardian of Jessie. - So the question becomes - who was Jessie's father, and what was the name of Jessie's mother ...

1867 - a guardian - formally or informally - a lass living with her mum and her mum's male partner were likely to have become known by that male partner's SURNAME .... 

- So I ponder was Jessie's mum surnamed GRAHAM before her mum's relationship commenced or because of that relationship ..

One newspaper article ... but so many issues arise from it  :)

http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/gipps-sir-george-2098

You may well need to investigate the pastoral run that was withdrawn by Gipps.

JM.


.   
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: JillH1952 on Sunday 22 November 20 06:17 GMT (UK)
I do not know anything about Jessie Graham from Obley.  However the ponderings regarding her male guardian are interesting.  The name Graham fits also with my Great Grandmother Jane Graham formerly Sinfield and I wonder if she could also be a part of this family and how she got the name Graham.  William Sinfield a convict is apparently her father and got his ticket of leave in this area.
She had her first child to Robert Gray who was a neighbour of some Graham family and my Grandmother Ada Jessie Gray was supposedly at  Bogan River.  Jane Graham Sinfield had her first  child to Robert Gray in 1861  at the age of 16 and married in 1867 at Yullundry.  A lot of this has been discussed previously.

I think it is too much a coincidence for there not to be some connection.

Will try and investigate this Graham male if he was part of the Dubbo police.

A can of worms

Jill Hargraves
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: majickeAUS on Monday 25 January 21 10:53 GMT (UK)
I am wondering if anyone has any information on a lady named Jessie Graham from Obley NSW who was assaulted in 1867 (image attached)

The accused was found to be not guilty.

My 2xgreat grandmother Ellen SCOTT was born in 1871 at Burrawang Station, Molong. Her parents were William SCOTT of Burrendong (near Forbes) and Jessie Graham of Buckinbah, Obley. The certificate states they were not married but unusualy, both are named.

I suspect that my Jessie Graham is the same as the one in the article you found.

Unfortunately, I know nothing about her or this side of the family. I have done DNA through Ancestry if anyone wants to check matches.

Kathryn
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: Thegrahs on Thursday 12 August 21 13:47 BST (UK)
I think my great grandfather Malcolm Gray was Robert's son
 
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: AussieWal on Thursday 26 August 21 09:51 BST (UK)
 Hi Thegrahs,

I would love to hear back from you regarding your potential connection...

Geordy
Title: Re: Gray Family - Obley NSW
Post by: Thegrahs on Thursday 26 August 21 21:34 BST (UK)
Hi, I dont have a lot of information unfortunately. He was born in 1881/82. Malcolm Robert Gray

 My great grandmother is Caroline Selina Robinson. My grandfather (so potentially Robert's grandson) was born at Mungery Station. Peak Hill. I was wondering if anyone else on this thread had come across Malcolm as it would be great to confirm that Robert and Jane were his parents. The area is certainly right.