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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: robjones on Monday 03 March 14 23:13 GMT (UK)
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Hi, I've been on Ancestry for 18 months to two years and findmypast too, trying to find my grandfather.
His name was Frank Horton.
That's as simple as it gets! I have conflicting records about him.
According to relatives he was born in Liverpool. On his first marriage certificate his father was named as Walter. At this time he was living in 26, William Street, Widnes with his wife to be Elizabeth McArdle.
He then had a Catholic ceremony of the same wedding but had his fathers name as Walteri - a latinisation I assume.
He moved away from Liverpool at some point around WWII and remarried in 1939, but had his fathers name as William at this ceremony.
He died in 1949, but his age on the death cert was put at 51, making him born in 1898, which may have been a mistake, maybe it was meant to read 57 and not 51?.
So I'm really confused and can't find any census or military records that will clear this up.
Apparently he had a brother called Isaac (Ike), his mum may have been Mary or Mary-Anne?
I really hope someone can help, I'm at my wits end.
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Hi
Welcome to the forum. Could this be his baptism and death information:-
Name: Frank Horton
Birth Date: 7 Mar 1900
Baptism Date: 21 Mar 1900
Parish: Everton, St Peter
Father's Name: Isaac Horton
Mother's name: Fanny Horton
Name: Frank Horton
Birth Date: 7 Mar 1900
Date of Registration: Jan/Feb/Mar 1972
Age at Death: 72
Registration district: Bishop Stortford
Inferred County: Hertfordshire
Volume: 4b
Page: 99
Blue
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Hello and welcome to RootsChat
the Catholic marriage 10 m Aug 1919 (after 1st marriage civil contract in 1915)
Groom is Fransiscum Horton of 23 Harbord St
Parents Walter & Anne Horton (mother's maiden name Baker)
where did you find Mother's name as Mary? or Mary Ann?
Suz
on the 1939 marriage could you please post witness'names and/ father's occ etc
Suz
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Hello and welcome,
what was his and his father's occupation on the marriage certificates please?
heywood
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Welcome to rootschat Rob.
I see some have beaten me to it. I was also going to ask about father's occupation and also age of Frank on both marriages, as well as years he married.
PS. I have located the family of the Frank, whose baptism was found by Blue, in the 1911 census .
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The Frank Horton that I found had a father called Isaac and a brother called William Isaac so could this be the right family?
Blue
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On the post by robjones - he states the father's name on (civil)marriage cert was Walter and on Catholic cert father is Walter Horton and mother Anne (nee Baker)
They were living at 23 Harbord St at the time of the Catholic ceremony
witnesses were Wilfred Rylance & Florentia McArdle
Are you certain that is the first marriage???
Suz
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1901 Census
Piece: 3482 Folio: 157
28 Rose Vale Everton
(Irton)
Isaac Horton, H, M, 35, Paper Hanger, Liverpool Lancashire
Frances Horton, W, M, 32, Liverpool Lancashire
William Horton, S, 8, Liverpool Lancashire
Richard Horton, S, 5, Liverpool Lancashire
Albert Horton, S, 2, Liverpool Lancashire
Frank Horton, S, 1, Liverpool Lancashire
Blue
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This is the brother William Isaac's baptism surprisingly father Isaac is down as Henry!
Name: William Isaac Horton
Birth Date: 10 Jul 1893
Baptism Date: 6 Aug 1893
Parish: Liverpool, All Saints
Father's Name: Henry Horton
Mother's name: Fanny Horton
Other baptisms:-
Name: Richard Horton
Birth Date: 8 Nov 1895
Baptism Date: 20 Nov 1895
Parish: Everton, St Peter
Father's Name: Isaac Horton
Mother's name: Fanny Horton
Name: Albert Horton
Birth Date: 17 Jun 1898
Baptism Date: 13 Jul 1898
Parish: Liverpool, St Peter
Father's Name: Isaac Horton
Mother's name: Fanny Horton
Name: Frances Horton
Birth Date: 2 Jan 1901
Baptism Date: 26 Jan 1902
Parish: Everton, St Peter
Father's Name: Isaac Horton
Mother's name: Frances Horton
Name: Florence Margaret Horton
Birth Date: 22 Oct 1903
Baptism Date: 4 Nov 1903
Parish: Everton, St Peter
Father's Name: Isaac Horton
Mother's name: Frances Horton
Blue
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Hi
According to the original post Frank Horton married Elizabeth McArdle in 1915 and died in 1949. If that is correct it would rule out the Frank Horton born 7th March 1900 with father Isaac.
Andy
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We need to find a brother for Frank called Isaac (Ike) my one has one so is still worth considering.
Blue
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We need to find a brother for Frank called Isaac (Ike) my one has one so is still worth considering.
Blue
But the parents of Frank/Francis Horton who married Elizabeth McArdle are given as Walter Horton & Anne Baker????
Then at the 1949 marriage his father is given as William????????
Suz
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Then at the 1949 marriage his father is given as William????????
Suz
1939 Suz. ;)
I wonder if Frank being born in Liverpool is incorrect, as there doesn't appear to be an obvious Frank/Francis of around the right age with father Walter/William in the 1901 census. They may be hidden behind a mistranscription somewhere or perhaps they were living elsewhere. :-\
As we know, ages given at death are more likely to be incorrect, so I would like to know how old he says he is when he marries. Perhaps we can then get a better estimation of his year of birth? :-\
I think it is quite possible that the family Blue found, may be related to rob's family due to similarity of names.
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Do you know if the brother Isaac was older or younger than Frank?
I have found a Houghton family living in Warrington in 1901 with father William H and mother Mary A. There is also a Houghton family in Widnes with father William C. mother Elizabeth and Frank E.G. (did your Frank have any middle names? :-\)
Neither have son Isaac in 1901. There are a couple of other possibilities with surname spelled Houghton.
Further investigation of each of them might help work out if one is your family?
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Do you have Frank in the 1911 census? I have tried searching the censuses for Fra* Ho*ton, b Lancs, 1894, +/- 5 years, and have a few results though unsure if any might be your Frank.
Knowing his age, occupation and his father's occupation may help narrow him down ... though of course by 1911 he may no longer be living at home.
Still unable to find an Isaac. Is Frank having a brother Isaac a family story? Do you have any idea of year of birth? Did he live to adulthood?
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Hello rob and everyone,
There are documented trees published which have Frank here:
1901 2702/ 35/ 6
Frantz Horton 11 yrs b Walsall, Staffordshire -several siblings but no Ike.
Parents are William and Mary Ann. The trees show her as Mary Ann Baker.
He is Frank in another census.
One tree has him born 1891 which tallies with census, the other born 1898 but still quoting same census.
Frank's first marriage certificate has been posted which shows both Frank and Walter (deceased) as labourers.
William Horton is a lock maker and Licensed Victualler :-\
Regards
Heywood
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It'll be a weird coincidence if the Frank Horton born in Liverpool in 1900 with a father called Isaac and a brother called William Isaac turns out to be wrong. How many Frank Hortons with a brother called Isaac can there be? The reason I posted all those baptisms was in case the names of the other siblings rang a bell.
Blue
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The trees have certificates and photos which link to Frank in Staffordshire not Liverpool.
There seem to be some complications in the family with links to Liverpool but not at time of Frank's birth.
Ike is mentioned as a sibling but no dates. Some members seem to be known by other names, so perhaps Ike was a nickname.
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Just had a look and Rob has a tree on there it looks like his Frank was born and grew up in Staffordshire not Liverpool. Rob has his birth in Birmingham though.
Blue
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Just had a look and Rob has a tree on there it looks like his Frank was born in Birmingham and grew up in Staffordshire not Liverpool.
Blue
Yes Rob's tree has the wrong birth date and place of birth. He perhaps hasn't modified it.
As I said, it looks a bit complicated but there seems to be quite a lot of supporting evidence.
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Yes Frank Jones father of Robert Henry is actually Frank Horton.
Blue
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Yes Frank Jones father of Robert Henry is actually Frank Horton.
Blue
??? I think I only saw Jones on one record- there are lots with Horton and on another tree with photos.
As Rob says in his first post, he has received conflicting and confusing information.
It would have helped to give a little more of what he already had perhaps, but if he is not convinced re Frank in Walsall, maybe he was hoping we would turn up a different Frank :)
Hopefully, he will add to this.
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Rob's tree appears to be under username 1_rob207 and is called Jemima/Matilda/Tallulah Family Tree.
Blue
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Yes I have seen that.
It seems odd that Frank gives such different occupation information on that marriage to Elizabeth MArdle :-\
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Frank was born in 1891 I wonder what his birth certificate has for father's name and occupation? It does seem strange that there are records for Frank that have his father as both William Horton (Locksmith) and Walter Horton (Labourer). Here is Frank's birth index:-
Name: Frank Horton
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1891
Registration district: Walsall
Inferred County: Staffordshire
Volume: 6b
Page: 707
Blue
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Hi, I've been on Ancestry for 18 months to two years and findmypast too, trying to find my grandfather.
His name was Frank Horton.
That's as simple as it gets! I have conflicting records about him.
According to relatives he was born in Liverpool. On his first marriage certificate his father was named as Walter. At this time he was living in 26, William Street, Widnes with his wife to be Elizabeth McArdle.
He then had a Catholic ceremony of the same wedding but had his fathers name as Walteri - a latinisation I assume.
He moved away from Liverpool at some point around WWII and remarried in 1939, but had his fathers name as William at this ceremony.
He died in 1949, but his age on the death cert was put at 51, making him born in 1898, which may have been a mistake, maybe it was meant to read 57 and not 51?.
So I'm really confused and can't find any census or military records that will clear this up.
Apparently he had a brother called Isaac (Ike), his mum may have been Mary or Mary-Anne?
I really hope someone can help, I'm at my wits end.
Looking at the information on those trees, maybe the question is, is it the same Frank Horton in both marriages/ relationships?
There are children from both relationships. If these were raised as half siblings then all would seem to be ok.
Let's hope rob knows ;)
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The address 23 Harbord Street Edgehill Liverpool appears on the 1919 RC marriage record for Frank Horton and is the address where one of the Jones children was born on 25 Mar 1927 (Arthur William Jones died in Singapore on 9 Dec 1926). So this would connect the Frank Horton who married Elizabeth McArdle with the Frank Horton who married Edith Ethel Jones formerly Claydon.
Blue
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Um, slight waste of time looking for Frank b Liverpool, when the OP has a tree specifying his birth in Birmingham. Might have been useful to have the entire story from the beginning. :-\
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Thanks for all your posts. I'll try to answer all the queries. its really good of you to spend time on helping me. Its been a real trouble and I wonder if I'll ever find out. The only family that I can find is from Spout Lane in Walsall, but my Aunt swears my father was born in Liverpool, my dad was a Liverpool fan and everything points to Liverpool.
I have seen the family with Isaac as the father and Frank born in 1900. It doesnt match with a marriage cert from 1915, when he married Elizabeth mcArdle and has his age as 24.
his occupation in 1915 was labourer, living at 26, William Street, Widnes. Father is Walter, who was also a labourer (deceased)
He then remarried on 25th November 1939, to Edith Ethel Jones (nee Claydon) at Eton in Berkshire. His job was as a store keeper in aircraft works. His father was named as William Horton (deceased) a general labourer. The witnesses were a w. Maddern and Amy(?) maddern
I understand he was in the RAMC (Medical Corp) during the first part of the war.
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Hi Rob
If your father was Robert Henry Jones then yes he was born in Liverpool but Frank doesn't appear to have been born in Liverpool but had moved there. Where did you get Isaac or Ike from? I can't see any connection with the Staffordshire Hortons. It's strange that the Frank from Staffordshire's father was a Locksmith but your Frank does not give that occupation on either marriage record.
Blue
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Thanks for looking Ruskie. the chap born in Birmingham is my best guess, but its not right. So I could put tell you the whole story if you like....not sure it will help, which is why I omitted it.
My name is Jones, My fathers name is Jones, my grandfathers name is Horton. So that needs explaining I guess.
My grandfather was knocking off a woman called Edith Jones (nee claydon) who was already married, to a chap who worked on a boat named Arthur Jones. Arthur mysteriously dissappeared after he caught Frank & edith together.
In order to maintain Ediths dignity, Frank Horton and Edith Jones kept the childrens name (including my Dad) as Jones. However when he married in 1915 he was a Horton then when they married in 1939, he called himself Horton, but my nan kept the name Jones. So I don't know what is going on, to be honest or who to look for.
Frank horton then dies in 1949, aged 51. So I suppose you may need to know that as well. And that he also lived in various other addresses in Liverpool apparently.
The Birmingham family is the only William Horton with a Frank as a son at dates that match, but when a family member is telling you that your Grandfather was from Liverpool who do you believe?
And that is why I came to this site to ask for help looking for my grandfather, Frank Horton/Jones.
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Thanks Blue
Its all a bit strange to be honest. I've been tying myself in knots over it. Very confusing.
The ike/isaac bit, is a relative recounting a story of how frank would discuss his brother Ike quite a bit. Whether he was older or younger we dont know.
Arthur Jones was married to Edith, but worked away a lot. Frank got Edith pregnant and when Arthur returns from sea, he discovered this and disappeared. I dont think thats the same Arthur who died in Signapore, as I believe he was quite lower down the ranks than that Arthur William, but you could be right.
We can only imagine frank moved into liverpool, but we cant prove it. Which is why my tree mentions him in Birmingham. And the family are adamant he was from Liverpool, lived in the slums. Had a dislike for Catholics yet had a Catholic ceremony for his first wedding?
I was also hoping if an electoral register from 1914-1918 may help? Do you have any experience researching the electoral rolls?
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Rather than electoral rolls we need the 1921 Census to see where the Frank Horton who was then married to Elizabeth McArdle was born. That will settle it. Obviously you'll have to wait several years for that to come out. It looks to me like Frank has given wrong information at both marriages. I think his father was William Horton (Locksmith) and he was born in Staffordshire in 1891.
Blue
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One tree has a date of birth of 12 October 1891 and place of birth as 9 Spout Lane, Walsall, Staffordshire. There may be other records that exist for your Frank that have his date of birth so you could compare any of these you might find with the Staffordshire date of birth. One such record that includes a date of birth was the 1939 Register:-
http://www.hscic.gov.uk/register-service
Blue
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Thanks very much for the clarification Rob. Yes, it is a complicated story, but at least now we understand the background. ;)
I agree with Blue in that it is possible that Frank gave incorrect information at both of his marriages. I understand your need to find out the truth. Sometimes family stories can get mixed up as time passes, but sometimes they can prove to be a good starting point.
Do you have any elderly family members who may know a little more about Frank and possibly Ike or any other siblings?
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Ive tried. We've all tried, but its all dried up really. there aren't many family members still alive to answer the questions and its doubtful that someone who lied a few times in his life would have told his kids the truth anyway.
Thanks for your time though.
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Have you tried contacting the person with the tree with the date of birth on it? They certainly think your Frank was from Staffordshire. If this was me I would fork out £42 to get the NHS 1939 Register people to do a name based search rather than address on the name Frank Horton and include possible whereabouts and possible date of birth. Knowing Frank though he may not have given his correct date of birth for this record!
Blue
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Ah thanks £42 would be a bargain!!
What info do you get from the NHS register?
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It's on the link Rob. They send you a letter containing the information for the person and other people living with them if they are now deceased:-
What data will be provided?
Data will be provided only where the individual is recorded as deceased (or where clear evidence of death can be provided by the applicant) and will include;
National Registration number
Address
Surname
First Forename
Other Forename(s)/Initial(s)
Date of Birth
Sex
Marital Status
Occupation
http://www.hscic.gov.uk/register-service
Blue
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The person with the date of birth on their tree must be related to you Rob they are also a grandson of Frank Horton:-
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.horton/3196/mb.ashx
Blue
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Hi Rob,
Just a couple of observations:
The two Franks from both marriages, we now know is the same person :)
It is his origins that is the problem.
The Catholic ceremony gives Frank's mother as Ann Baker.
On his second marriage, what was his father's occupation?
The other tree that I can see has photos of Frank.
Is the owner of that tree assuming or do they know Frank's history?
Frank on the trees is born Walsall. He is not born 1898 in a Birmingham.
There is a WW 1 death of a a Frank Horton, Walsall but unfortunately, no other details. There is a Frank of a similar age so it could be that one.
He was in Liverpool, so that may be the mistaken connection.
Heywood
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There are births for Edna 1916 and Frank 1917
What was Frank's occupation?
I am wondering if these births would help confirm any Army service.
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Hi all
Really stuck trying to find my GrandFather Frank Horton. I have posted here before, have a fairly comprehensive tree on Ancestry (look for 1_rob207) I have given him a mother & father, that is my best guess but nothing is certain and I'm pretty stuck now.
Various documents give different information. ie 1st marriage to Elizabeth mcArdle in 1915 says his fathers name was Walter (deceased) & mothers name is Mary Ann Baker. His WW1 enlistment says his fathers name was George. 2nd Marriage in Eton, 1939 to Edith Claydon/Jones says his fathers name is William. Possibly he didnt know his father and possibly he was lying for some reason.
I haven't made a mistake with the documents. It's definately the same Frank horton on all of these records.
His DoB is Oct 1891 (My guess) Dec 1891 (WW1 record) or Sept 1892 (NHS Survey) & 1898 (his death cert from 1949 said he was 51 when he died)
Currently I believe he was born in Walsall on 12/10/1891 with a mother Mary Ann Baker and Father William Horton. He has his mothers name down as Mary Ann Baker on 1st marriage and father is william on his second marriage, so there is a fair chance its this family that I'm looking for.
However the fly in the ointment is his WW1 record where he states his place of birth as Edge Hill, Liverpool. And I cant find any Frank Hortons born in Liverpool in that time. Why would a young man lie about his place of birth to a recruiting officer?
I know he lived at 23, Harbord St Liverpool in 1914 until at least 1923 so i know he was around Liverpool at that sort of time.
Does anyone know what documents have place of birth on them aside from Birth Certs? If I can find out for certain that he was born in Liverpool, that would be a good start!
Anecdotally, my aunt tells me Frank had a brother called Ike (issac? or dwight?) Perhaps he came from the US? There has been rumours of us having US blood, but how to prove that? I can see a Frank Horton on a incoming passenger list from 1913, which would fit the bill, but how to prove it is him?
Any help greatly appreciated.
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He has his mothers name down as Mary Ann Baker on 1st marriage and father is william on his second marriage, so there is a fair chance its this family that I'm looking for.
Where did he marry as English marriage certs do not show mothers names
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1st marriage was in Widnes (St Ambrose Church) in 1915, but the catholic ceremony in St Annes, Liverpool in 1919 has his mothers name (anne baker) written on it.
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A very long previous thread here
topics now merged ;D
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Yes I have posted before. Ive made a little progress and my main question is to what documents would give me an indication of ones birth place.
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I think you'll have to wait for the 1921 Census for further birth place information. Did you have any luck messaging on Ancestry?
Blue
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I have spent sometime looking at this, I too am interested in the surname HORTON, Staffs/ Derby/ Lancs /Ches!
The 1919 Catholic marriage entry I consider holds the clue. In declaring that Frank's parents were Walter & Ann HORTON nee BAKER, this last surname cannot have been plucked out of the air, it had to be known.....strange that there is also a marriage of a Mary Ann BAKER to a WIlliam HORTON, I think confirms that Frank was born in Walsall. Maybe mother called him Walter!
If you look at freebmd.org.uk you will find a Isaac HORTON b 1875 d 1876, this could be the child referred to !
As regards supporting Liverpool, my female neighbour of 90 welsh born never been near Liverpool also supports them!
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Ah. Hello. Maybe we can help each other!!
I have the Walsall line in my tree as it's the most likely - a lot of the info matches up & I've followed that Horton line quite closely.
But I don't understand why Frank Horton would have put his place of birth as Edge Hill in his enlistment in 1914? His dads name is George in the same document, then its Walter in his 1915 marriage cert? Then finally william when re re-marries in 1915.
In some ways I can put the first marriage cert as a clerical error. Frank puts his address as William Street and fathers name as Walter. Well the church he married in was in William Street and Walter street is just around the corner. So maybe he told the registrar and that info got mixed up.
I have ordered his war pension record from 1915-1919 as he re-enlisted during that period and maybe that will shed some light.
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oh and we had anecdotal evidence that Isaac Horton lived iN Cheshire and was a football referee.
But I have a LOT of anecdotal evidence!!
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Also I think the walter/william thing could also be explained, as you suggest, by it being a family name.
However, the name given as Franks father in 1914 enlistment was George. Which throws me off completely.
I presume one of two things. Either Frank didnt know who his parents were or he was trying to cover his tracks from someone or something?
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Regarding ordering pension record. A lot of WW1 records were destroyed if the record is not already online it may have been destroyed. Do you know for sure the record still exists?
Blue
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I've been informed there are some held in a private location at the Western Front Association. Not sure whether I'm going to get anything back.
We've got a service card - with a regimental number - so I'll have to see if they find anything else.
Rob
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I've been informed there are some held in a private location at the Western Front Association. Not sure whether I'm going to get anything back.
We've got a service card - with a regimental number - so I'll have to see if they find anything else.
Rob
How do you know his father is given as George in his army record?
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Oh yes sorry.
He had a 1st service record that ran from Sept 1914 to Jan 1915. This is where the fathers name is put as George, living at 14, Alfred St Liverpool and Franks place of birth is Edge Hill, Liverpool. I can't find a suitable record of this man.
There is also a second war record from Aug 1915 to 1920 - which I can find a medal card for and someone has given me some further info on this period. It is that service/pension record that I think may have a clue. If I can find it.
Frank then got married in 1915 and had his fathers name as Walter. This marriage was then confirmed in a Catholic ceremony in 1919 with the name latinised to Walteri & Mothers maiden name give as Anne (or Anna) Baker
In 1939 Frank gets married again and says his fathers name is William.
There are also several DoB's given. I am not sure if he ever knew his fathers name or DoB (maybe because he was orphaned) or he was running from something. It's getting close to a point where I'm thinking if he didn't know, how would we ever find out?
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Blue
This is the info I was given from the WW1 message board at Circlecity.co.uk and I will let you know how that goes.
"The Western Front Association holds an otherwise unavailable archive of First World War army pension records......The W.F.A. charges for manual searches of the records. See:
http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/all-about-the-wfa/wfa-news-events/pension-records/pension-record-lookup-request-fee.html"
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Thanks Rob. Looking at the wiki page for the WFA they say they have saved records that would have otherwise been destroyed by the MOD!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Front_Association
Medal Cards:-
http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/history-wfa/2079-did-you-know-medal-index-cards.html
Pension Index Cards and Ledgers
http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/all-about-the-wfa/wfa-news-events/pension-records/the-wfa-preserves-a-major-great-war-archive-of-6-5-million-records.html
Blue
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Great! friendly fire! haha.
Blue, are you the same Blue who has access to Gores/Kellys 1911 directory?
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Hi Rob
Yes I've got it. Who are you looking for or what address?
Blue