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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Rayjamgor on Saturday 15 March 14 08:35 GMT (UK)
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Hi my g gran Isabella McInnes b1871 married my g granda John Gordon in 1889 in Glasgow and on the marriage cert her father is noted as James McInnes deceased (bottleblower ). On her death cert is states as father William McInnes deceased (bottleblower)........ its the same mother Isabella Clark ( previously McInnes, ms Orr ) did they make simple mistakes then or did John not know her fathers name? but they knew all details of Isabella the mother , which i cant find a death for either . I should mention her brother James McInnes was boarding with them in 1901 census.
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It's not uncommon for there to be a discrepancy between information on a marriage certificate and information on a death certificate. Usually, I would tend to go with the marriage certificate, because it is nearer to the source than the death certificate, but it's not infallible.
If the person registering the death had never known the deceased's parents, it's hardly surprising.
I recently found death certificates which, on the face of it, 'proved' that a brother and sister had married. In fact they were cousins with the same surname before marriage, and the grandson who registered the death of his grandmother got his great-grandparents mixed up.
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Discrepancies and mistake on death certificates are very common. The information was the informant’s best guess. Often the informant is not going to know the deceased’s parents and mistakes are common, especially over maiden names etc. (No documentary evidence is required when giving that information to the Registrar). Whereas on the marriage certificate, the information is first hand from the bride and groom, who can normally be expected to know exactly who their parents were. I would place much more reliance on the information on the marriage certificate than on the death cert.
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Interestingly, the IGI at www.familysearch.org does not list an Isabella McInnes, daughter of any McInnes and Isabella Orr. It does list Isabella McGinnis, born 3 October 1870, daughter of William McGinnis and Isabella Orr, as well as William McGinnis, 1864; Francis Orr McGinnis, born 1868; and John Boyle McGinnis, 1873.
(If you are calculating a date of birth by subtracting an age in a census from the census year, you will get the wrong answer three times out of four because the census was taken three months into the year, when only about one person in four had actually had that year's birthday. Someone born between early April 1870 and December 1870 would only have had their 30th birthday, not their 31st, by the date of the 1901 census)
So, why might Isabella have got her father's given name wrong?
There's a family at 20 Barony Street, Glasgow in the 1881 census consisting of Isabella McInnes, head, 36, widowed, with son William, 16, bottle blower (matching a birth date in 1864/5); daughter Isabella, 10 (matching a birth date in 1870/1); son James Clark McInnes, 3; and sister Barbara Orr, 33. I don't think there is much doubt that this is your Isabella Orr with her surviving children.
Now, when did her husband die? The IGI doesn't go beyond about 1874, so young James isn't listed. But look at his middle name, and look at Isabella Sr's name as shown on her daughter's marriage and death certificates. Why would William McInnes or McGinnis give his son the name of his future widow's future husband? Could it be that James is in fact an illegitimate son of Isabella Orr or McInnes/McGinnis, born after the death of her husband?
So, if we assume that William was alive in 1872 when John Boyle McGinnis was conceived, and had died before, at the latest, 1877, when James Clark McInnes was conceived, we have a fairly short window during which William could have died. Also, we can assume that William was aged at least 20, and it seems likely that he died in Glasgow. Using those parameters in SP gives us seven possibilities, but one can be discounted as too old (68) and one is just 20, so probably too young. Just one of them spells his name McGinnis, and bingo! It is the right one. William McGinnis, bottle blower, married to Isabella Orr, died 12 July 1875 in Barnhill Poorhouse.
So he died when his daughter Isabella was not yet five years old. She would barely have remembered him, so it is not surprising that she got his name wrong fourteen years later when she married.
Now, why did she think his name was James? Note again the given names of her brother James. It is quite common for the mother of an illegitimate child to name her child after its father. There is a marriage in 1883 of an Isabella M*inn*s to a James Clarke in Glasgow. Substituting Orr for M*inn*s produces the same result. So I think that Isabella had an illegitimate child, James, to James Clark(e) in 1877/8, and then married the father in 1883. So James Clark(e) had been around since Isabella was six or seven years old, and it was his given name that she supplied on her marriage certificate.
So if I am right, for once the information on the marriage certificate is wrong and the death certificate is correct.
As an aside, note that William died in the poorhouse. This suggests that there may be something about him in the Glasgow Parochial Board records (Poor Law/Parish Relief records) which are in the Mitchell Library in Glasgow. If so, they will contain a wealth of information abour William.
(With a surname like McGinnis, and his children's given names including Francis and Boyle, it would not surprise me at all if William was Irish; if he was, and if there are parochial board records of him, they are quite likely to tell you where in Ireland he came from.)
So many ifs, buts and maybes. You need to get the birth certificates of Isabella jr and her brothers; these will tell you when and where William and Isabella Orr were married (this information is not in the IGI). The Clarke to Orr/M*inn*s mariage certificate will confirm or otherwise the identity of Isabella Orr's second husband, and will provide the names of her parents. The birth certificate of James Clark(e) or M*inn*s in 1877/8 may also be informative. Was Isabella Orr deceased by the time her daughter married in 1889? This would narrow the search for a death certificate.
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that was some amazing info , :o just heading out but Isabella Clark was alive when her daughter Isabella Gordon died in 1905 , making her about 50ish .
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Aye, well, she was 36 in the 1881 census. If that is accurate, she was born in 1844/5, and it also gives her birthplace as Glasgow. And she would have been about 60 in 1905.
There isn't an Isabel(la) Orr of exactly the right age in the 1851 census on FreeCEN. The closest is the seven-year-old (so born 1843/4) daughter of Joseph Orr and Mrs Orr, and there is a 'community contributed' listing in the IGI of Isabella Thomson Orr, daughter of Joseph Orr and Jane Robertson, born 13 December 1843 and baptised 14 January 1844. There is an M Robertson, ma-in-law, in the same household in the census, so no doubt this is who this family is. Whether or not this is your Isabella Orr you will only know once you have seen her marriage to James Clarke.
Oh, and Isabella Clark or Orr died in Glasgow in 1917, age given as 75.
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Just to add -
I think the 1917 death also has the surname Mcguiness.
ev
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Just to add -
I think the 1917 death also has the surname Mcguiness.
Ah. I decided not to spend a credit looking at it.
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JEEZO , just in and having proper read of the post amazing stuff :o dont know where to begin , but firstly a massive thanks to Forfarian ;) my post was just to see if there discrepancies in certs . will check out the certs tomorrow and thanks all for the great work ,Raymie.
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JEEZO , just in and having proper read of the post amazing stuff :o dont know where to begin , but firstly a massive thanks to Forfarian ;) my post was just to see if there discrepancies in certs . will check out the certs tomorrow and thanks all for the great work ,Raymie.
Let us know what you find - I would appreciate knowing if my speculations prove correct.
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Howdy Forfarian , having a wee nosey at Isabella Clarke and James Clarkes marriage cert . Isabellas father is Francis Orr and mother is Isabella Orr ms ,Robertson ( u mentioned Robertson in your post ) and address is Bright st Glasgow . I got a Francis Orr marrying Isabella Robertson in 11/01/1839 in Alloa , am i on the right track with that ?. Isabella was born in Glasgow on her cert with William McGinnis and Isabella Orr as parents in 1870. have Williams father as John McGinnis and cant make out mothers first name McConnell from his death cert in 1875. also got William jnr birth cert in 1864 North st Glasgow . so im thinking your right with the Irish connection with William . Im realising theres lots of Irish in my family i never knew about :)
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You might also go for the Mc(gu)inne/is(s) family in the 1871 census. William was still living then, so the census should tell you where he was born.
Have you found James' birth yet? He is probably registered as McInnes or McGinnis, but maybe also as Clark(e).
The Robertson I mentioned before is a different one - wife of a Joseph Orr. Just ignore her. You are on the right track with Alloa.
According to the IGI (Community indexed so should be fairly reliable) Francis Orr and Isabella Robertson had three children: Andrew, born 1839 in Alloa; Isabella, born 1842 in Alloa; Barbara Gilfillan, born 1844 in Barony, i.e. Glasgow. You can get images of the original baptism records on the SP web site.
The 1841 census at FreeCEN has the family at Glass Works, Alloa: Francis, 20; Isabella, 20; and Andrew, 1. Adults' ages in 1841 were (supposed to be) rounded down to the nearest 5 years so Francis and Isabella could be anything from 20 to 24.
The 1851 census has the family at 15 Catherine Street, Barony; Francis Orr, 33, bottle blower, born Leith, Midlothian; wife Isabella, 29, born Perth; Andw, 12, and Isabella, 6, both born Alloa; Barbara, 7 born Barony.
In 1881 Andrew is listed as a bottle blower, aged 41, born Alloa, living at 291 New Keppochhill Road, Barony with wife Jane, 38, also born Alloa, and seven children. This looks like the family of Andrew Orr and Jane Nicol, who were married in Duddingston (Edinburgh) in 1865.
I didn't find Francis Orr or his wife Isabella Robertson in the 1881. They may have died, or could have moved away from Glasgow.
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I found your post just last night and I wanted to chime in and say "Hello!" I am William Jr's descendant rather than Isabella's. Your question caught my eye because I had come to something of a halt getting past this generation on the maternal side.
I wanted to share that William Sr's mothers name is Agnes (very clear in the Catholic Parish Birth Record giving his birthdate as 21 Sept 1834 at St Andrews).
My problem is that Isabella Orr's mother is identified as Catherine Robertson in some places and Isabella Robertson in others. Would you happen to know who Catherine is?
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Howdy cousin ;) just noticed that on Isabella Orrs death cert 1917 in Portobello that her mother was Catherine Orr and her marriage to James Clark 1883 Glasgow her mother was Isabella Orr. She is widowed again so a relative or friend could have got mixed up with names in death cert .
So William 1864 is your great grandfather and brother to Isabella 1870 my great gran ? did you find william senior had died in the poorhouse ?
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Such a pleasure to find family! William 1864 is my twice great grandfather. So that would make us...third cousins once removed? Cousin is much easier :).
I always feel so inadequate when I am trying to wade into these records. Distance, time, and even language can sometimes make them very confusing. I greatly appreciate the insights!
I am presently trying to get in touch with another (somewhat closer) cousin who visited the McInnes family in Dunoon at one point, to see if he can shed any light. In the mean time I am very excited by the thought of poorhouse records in Glasgow! I understand that they do have them at the Mitchell Library, but I suspect it might behoove me to pay someone to check it out. A round trip ticket would pay for a fair bit of professional help!
Thank you again!
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Hi Historycurious , I managed to get Williams Poorhouse records from The Mitchell Library. He first went in in 1868 suffering from fits and had been for a while. Says also sent to Lunatic Assylum , not sure if that was part of the Poorhouse . If you want a copy let me know ;-)