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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Greensleeves on Monday 17 March 14 10:42 GMT (UK)
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I seem to have lost Caroline Mattingley, born 1826, Rotherhithe, daughter of Richard Mattingley and Barbara Torrison. If anyone could find her I would be most obliged.
In 1841 she was with her parents and siblings, aged 15, Rotherhithe.
In 1844 she married Benjamin Groutage who was born 1815, Rotherhithe.
Their children were Joseph, born 1850, Bermondsey; William born 1852, Bermondsey; May born 1856 Bermondsey.
I can't find any of them in the 1851 census although Benjamin and the children are together in 1861, with him shown as married but there is no sign of Caroline.
And thereafter I not only lose sight of Caroline, but the whole lot of them! As far as I can see they have disappeared off the face of the earth. Caroline might have an excuse not to be at home for the 1851 census as her sister, Frances, was getting married in Hartlepool, Co Durham, on that day but I don't seem to be able to find her there either.
I certainly would be most grateful for any help/advice/observations on this family.
Many thanks,
GS
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Hi GS
For 1851 have you searched on the addresses shown on Joseph & William's births/baptisms, if you have that information?
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Could this be them in 1851;
HO107/1560/330/57
Mistranscribed as Gmontges
7 Canal Row;
Benjamin, b.1819 Bermondsey, Woodcutter
Caroline, b. 1826 Bermondsey
Joseph, b. 1846 Bermondsey
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In 1851 they are at 7 Canal Row, St Mary Magdalene, Bermondsey
HO107; Piece: 1560; Folio: 330; Page: 57;
On Ancestry as Gmontges
On Find MyPast as Grontage
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When complete families fall off the records for England & Wales, and you've exhausted all the BMD's, censuses and parish records, you should consider looking for them overseas
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Looks as if they may have had 2 other children before Joseph, both baptised on 10th January 1849 to Benjamin and Caroline Groutage at Bermondsey, Christ Church.
Emma Groutage born Nov 18th 1846
Sarah Groutage born 24th June 1848
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Emma's death:
Emma Groutage
Jul-Aug-Sep 1849
Registration district: Bermondsey
Volume: 4 Page: 26
Sarah's death
Burial
23 Sep 1849 aged 14 Months
Bermondsey St James
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Thank you all so much for this help. Well, Dawnsh and Sunnee_Dee: Gmontges - why didn't I think of that! ;D How on earth did you find them?
Avm, they had moved since Joseph's baptism, when they were living at 11 Jacob Street, Bermondsey. By 1861 they were in George Street, Rotherhithe, if I read the census correctly; Benjamin still a woodcutter, as were the two sons.
Sadly Jan, the two other girls both died in infancy, and both in 1849. I don't have dates of death yet so I don't know if the deaths were connected.
So thanks everyone for finding them in 1851. I wonder if they did go abroad after 1861 as the entire family is missing. Thanks for that suggestion, Dawnsh.
Kind regards
GS
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Well thanks for those deaths, Jan - that was going to be the next thing I needed to check! :)
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This looks like Joseph in 1871
RG10; Piece: 234; Folio: 21; Page: 35
Prebend St, St Pancras, London
Joseph Groutage 24 head wood cutter Rotherithe, Surrey
Emma Groutage 26 wife Bermondsey, Surrey
Mary Hayles 24 wife's sister Bermondsey, Surrey
Catherine Shortell 41 lodger
Margaret Scaldwell 76 lodger
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Gmontges - why didn't I think of that! ;D How on earth did you find them?
A search for the entire family but with the surname omitted found them - comes in very useful with the more unusual names!
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I hadn't thought of trying that, Sunnee-Dee, thanks for the tip!
And thanks for finding Joseph for me, Jan.
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1861 Gape St ?
Benj Groutage 41 married wood cutter born Bermondsey
Joseph Groutage 11 son
William Groutage 9 son
May Groutage 7 dau
all children born Bermondsey
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From LMA records
Joseph Groutage
Record Type:
Baptism
Baptism Date:
31 Mar 1850 born March 4th 1850 ( date shown on original )
Father's Name:
Benjamin Groutage labourer 11 Jacob St
Mother's name:
Caroline Groutage
Parish or Poor Law Union:
Bermondsey Christ Church
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1881 census, 76 Camden Street, Pancras
RG11207/22/37
Joseph Growtrige 30 Woodchopper born Bermondsey
Emma Growtrige 30 Laundress born Bermondsey
Elizabeth Haley 10 Niece born Bermondsey
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I think we should now be looking for variant spellings of the surname
Marriages Jun 1876
Groutridge, Joseph, St. Saviour, 1d 206
Haley, Emma, St Saviour, 1d 206
St John the Evangelist, Walworth
29 April 1876
Joseph Groutridge, full age, bachelor, woodcutter, father Benjamin Groutridge Deceased
Emma Haley, full age, spinster, no occ, father James Haley Deceased
Both left their marks 'X' rather than signatures
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At least that tells us that Benjamin died before 1876, unless Joseph wasn't telling the truth.
Interesting that on the 1871, Joseph gave his age as 24 when he would only have been 20/21 and quite a bit younger than Emma - I wonder if this is why they didn't marry until later. I see in the 1881 they were both economical with their ages.
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also this one....
Deaths Jun 1892
Groutidge, Joseph, aged 43, Pancras 1b 106
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from www.deceasedonline.com
Joseph Grontidge
Burial date 13 May 1892
St Pancras Cemetery (Camden)
appears to be in a common grave with 18 others
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I don't know if this is a relevant child of your Benjamin & Caroline's or not
From the marriage register, St James the Great Bethnal Green
29 Sept 1873
George Eglington,full age, bachelor, Baker, of Bethnal Green, father Samuel Eglington, Carman
Mary Ann Groutage, full age, spinster, of Bethnal green, father Benjamin Groutage Deceased
Edited: Beng Groutage of Bethnal Green, buried Shoreditch 1832, looks like another family group
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If we assume that Benjamin died prior to 1876 then this marriage could be relevant;
Caroline Groutage
Sep qtr 1875, Bethnal Green, London, Vol 1c, pg 616
to Israel Colas or Richard Mitchell
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The Caroline who married Israel Calas (this spelling) seems to have been born c1841-3 Blackfriars or Shoreditch.
Here they are in 1881: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X32Y-SXR?cc=1321821
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Back to the drawing board then. :-\
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I dont know if this is of interest GS, but it looks as if Benjamin had a brother, James, who I think died before 1861. James was married to a Susan and they had at least 4 children - James, Henry, Emma and William. They also lived in Bermondsey and in some of the censuses, his sons James and Henry were woodcutters - the same occupation as Benjamin.
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Emma's death:
Emma Groutage
Jul-Aug-Sep 1849
Registration district: Bermondsey
Volume: 4 Page: 26
Sarah's death
Burial
23 Sep 1849 aged 14 Months
Bermondsey St James
St James, Bermondsey
Emma Groutage of Jacob Street aged 2yrs 10 months buried 11 Sept 1849
Sarah Groutage of Jacob Street aged 14 months buried 23 Sept 1849
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That's really sad, to lose two young children in two weeks, probably from the same illness.
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Thank you all very much indeed for all your help; it certainly is a mystery where Caroline disappeared to. And how sad that the two little girls died within a fortnight; must have been heart-breaking for them. I wonder if as has been suggested, they left the country. Possible I suppose. Also possible that after Benjamin's death, Caroline started co-habiting and took her new partner's name without the formalities of a wedding ceremony.
I' so grateful to you all for your help with this, which really is greatly appreciated!
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It is strange that we can't find a death for Benjamin or Caroline, or any trace of William and May.
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That's what I find strange Jan, that so many of them seem to have disappeared.
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A bit far from Bermondsey but a possible?
Deaths Dec 1867
Groutage Caroline 46 Birmingham 6d 75
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I've been looking at that one, but I don't think it is her as there is a Caroline Groutage in Birmingham in the censuses. She was born in Warwick in 1823 and married to Edward.
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Thank you all so much for your help; I've certainly found out a lot about the family even if I haven't found Caroline! I don't suppose I should be too surprised, as some of my ancestors do an excellent job of hiding. Indeed not long ago thanks to people on these boards we found Walter Sedgwick, who had scuttled off to another town and was living as Sidney Rainbow! ;D
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Just been double checking and I'm puzzled about Emma and Sarah - on the transcription it gives parents as Benjamin and Catherine. However, as they died at Jacob Street, which is where your family was in 1850, when Joseph was baptised, it seems a strange coincidence if there were two Benjamin Groutages in the same road, especially as we are having trouble finding one.
I'm wondering whether Caroline also called herself, Catherine?
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Thanks for that, Jan - I'll try to follow that lead and see if it takes me anywhere!
One thing I found today was a Benjamin Groutage in the Prison Hulks Register. He was on the Fortitude at Chatham. There was no date on the record, unfortunately, but I checked and Fortitude was used between 1833 and 1844. I wonder if it is the same Benjamin Groutage who was paying for a mis-spent youth.
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Or it may have been his father, he was also a Benjamin wasn't he?
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I think this is the father's burial
Benjamin Groutage, Blacksmith, aged 55, buried 19 Dec 1834, Rotherhithe St Mary, died in the workhouse
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Just checked the Hulk registers and it was Joseph Groutage born 1808 received 7 October 1835 on the Fortitude, convicted of housebreaking at Warwick and sent to NSW 28 May 1936
There are lots of Groutage families in that area in the census and bmd's
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Do you have the baptisms or birth registration for May, as I can't seem to find either?
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Do you have the baptisms or birth registration for May, as I can't seem to find either?
I can't find her either - the nearest is:
Mary Ann Groutage
Bermondsey
1854 Apr-May-Jun
Volume 1D Page 57
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There's also this one, but there's a possible death for her the following year, difficult to tell without the age on the death reg or a corresponding bapt or burial :-\
Maria Groutage
Bermondsey, Mar qtr 1857, Vol 1c, Pg 66
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There's also this one, but there's a possible death for her the following year, difficult to tell without the age on the death reg or a corresponding bapt or burial :-\
Maria Groutage
Bermondsey, Mar qtr 1857, Vol 1c, Pg 66
A Maria Groutage doesn't seem to appear in any censuses in the right area, so it looks as if she did die in infancy, so isn't May. I wonder though if she also belonged to Benjamin and Caroline?
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Thank you so much for your continuing work on this!
The only evidence I have found for May is the 1861 census, shown below.
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That's all I can find - no birth, marriage or death and no census after that. ::) Nothing for William either.
I wonder if Benjamin, Caroline and the two younger children did emigrate and left Joseph behind? If so, they must have gone before 1871 and there aren't many passenger lists then. I think your family do this on purpose, they aren't the first to disappear are they? ;D ;D
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Curiously nearly all the lines which form my 'northern' family actually originate in Greenwich and Rotherhithe. Caroline's sister, Frances, is my 3x great-grandmother. Frances turns up in Hartlepool, County Durham in 1851 and marries William Shadforth (born Hartlepool) on census day 1851. These two girls had six siblings; I have followed Frances's life and then turned my attentions to Caroline. I still have the other six siblings to go through which might well prove to be a lifetime's work if they are equally elusive. ;D
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I still have the other six siblings to go through which might well prove to be a lifetime's work if they are equally elusive.
With any luck, Caroline might turn up living with one of them.
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Funnily enough, Jan, that occurred to me as I typed that post. Think I will leave Caroline for the time being and see what happened to the rest of them.
Thus have moved on to Caroline's brother Robert Mattingly, who was baptised at the Jamaica Row Independent Chapel by a non-conformist protestant minister 14 Oct 1832. Barbara Torrison, the mother of these children, was the daughter of Hans Torrison, a Norwegian mariner who died at Greenwich Hospital in 1849. Thought you might be interested in a bit of background here - although Jan (Groom) already knows this as she was instrumental in unearthing the Norwegian connection here (for which I will forever be grateful!)
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Hi Greensleeves
I think I have found Caroline in 1861.
Check the Match all terms exactly box.
Then search on C in forename box and G in surname box and 1826 -/+ 2 in Birth box. This should bring up 12 results. The fourth one down is C G born in Rotherhithe. The full entry on the page Line 24 reads:
Name: C G
Relationship: Prisoner
Condition: Mar
Sex: Female
Age: 32
Occupation: Woodcutter
POB: Surrey, Rotherhithe
Census place is Wandsworth House of Correction.
Looks like you have a bit of digging to do. Census entries were often reduced to initials for prisoners and mental asylum patients. It's always worth doing a search on initials when you have a brick wall.
Cheers
Libby in Canada
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Thank you very much indeed for this Libby - it certainly looks a distinct possibility. Oh dear poor Caroline - I hope it isn't her but I suspect you are right. Caroline's sister, Frances, left London for Hartlepool, County Durham; and she named her first daughter Caroline so clearly there was a strong liink between the sisters. I have often wondered whether they kept in touch or if they were unaware of what happened to each other.
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This might be useful GS - looks as if the records are in the National Archives
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=074-acc3444&cid=0#0
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Hi I'm hoping to message greensleeves. Re: Hans John Torrison Norway as he is my Ggf 4 times back too. I'm new to Ancestry etc. But would love to talk to anyone related to our Norwegian Mariner.
Thanks
Yazz
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Hello Yazz, nice to meet you! I am thinking we are distant cousins. So pleased to be in touch with you. I would be happy to share with you any info I have on my side of the family.
Regards
GS
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Hi GS
Yes I think we must be related, that's fantastic. I'm on FB. Yasmine Mahmood and happy to connect on there too. I don't have as much info as you but I do have a tree on ancestry and have done a DNA test and awaiting results. All this is amazing. My ggf was Thomas Charles Torrison 1887 (who married Florrie Milsom)and son of John then his dad Thomas and then John Hans Torrison (Norway ). I believe. So we certainly seem to have shared ancestors. Xx
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Oh this is so exciting - will really look forward to working out how we are related. Seems you are descended from Jans Toresen's son, Thomas, and I am descended from his daughter, Barbara. I too have a tree on A*ry and you would be more than welcome to look at it.
I think if you make one more post, we will then be able to 'talk' through personal messages, when we could share some more family information. I'm on FB too but I have a really common name so I suspect I wouldn't be easy to find!
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That's exciting GS to have found a new relative.
Welcome to Rootschat Yazz.
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Hi Gs yes that's brilliant. I am excited too. Hopefully we can talk after this post. I only come to this site because I googled Torrison/rotherhithe ha ha wonderful. Thanks moderator x
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This really is a great site, as you will no doubt discover. I stumbled across it some years ago by googling another of my family lines Pearle/Woolpit!