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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: sugarfizzle on Tuesday 18 March 14 06:50 GMT (UK)
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Hoping that someone can help me.
John Roberts Tuthill was born c 1820 in London, married there in 1841, had at least 5 children up until 1852/1853. He was also known as John Roberts Stephens.
He came to New South Wales c 1853 without his wife, and started a new family with Anne/Annie, first known child Henry Archibald Stephens, born 30 July 1854, Sydney, NSW. He went on to become a respected billiard table maker, as was his brother who remained in England.
Related threads
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=635467.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=680889.0
I have tried so far unsuccessfully to find his immigration record.
NOT, from http://www.records.nsw.gov.au,
STEPHENS John, Lady Clarke, Dec 1841, Farm labourer from Devon, Wife Mary Ann, 29, House servant, Son John 6 and other family members
STEPHENS John 29 Ship Sarah 1849 and wife Mary Ann 37, Coachman from Gibraltar, wife House servant from London
STEPHENS John 23 Ship Panama 1850 and wife Ann 20, Farm labourer from Dunass, Clare, wife House servant from Holyhead Anglesey
STEPHENS John 27 Ellenborough 1853 and wife Lucy R, Blacksmith from Cornwall, wife from Guernsey Island
STEPHENS John 30 Lady Ann 1854 and wife Martha 20, Farm labourer from Davidstowe, Cornwall, wife from Redruth, Cornwall
Nothing at all comes up with TUTHILL/variations, but now I have located the year more accurately to 1853, I wonder if there is anywhere else I can look? I have very little knowledge of Australian research, my family mostly from UK.
Margaret
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Hi Margaret, you have tagged this thread immigration NSW. Are you absolutely sure that NSW was his destination when leaving the UK? I know he seemed to settle there and have children quite quickly, but could he have come into any other Australian port, couldn't he?
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Hi again, I've tried to read through your various links and I think I have confused myself, I don't know how you do it...between the two families and the name changes.
Anyway, it all of that, I could not see if you had a date of death for the John who went to Australia and changed his name.
I have found this:http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13698376?searchTerm=john%20stephens%20billiard&searchLimits= (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13698376?searchTerm=john%20stephens%20billiard&searchLimits=)
Stephens - October 2 [1888] at his residence No. 3 Nithsdale Street, [Sydney] John Stephens, billiard table maker, aged 67 English papers please copy.
If you enter 3 Nithsdale Street, Sydney, New South Wales in Google Maps you'll see the street and note it's located nearly in the heart of Sydney.
Death of his wife Anne - October 3 1885
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13732440?searchTerm=john%20stephens%20billiard&searchLimits= (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13732440?searchTerm=john%20stephens%20billiard&searchLimits=)
Death of his brother in England:
On the 3rd January, at Barclay-street, Somers Town, Mr.
W. Stephens aged 50, of the firm of Hopkins and Stephens,
billiard table makers, of Long Acre, London, and brother of John
Stephens, billiard table maker, of this city, after three days
illness, leaving a widow and large family to mourn their loss.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13103593?searchTerm=john%20stephens%20billiard&searchLimits= (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13103593?searchTerm=john%20stephens%20billiard&searchLimits=)
Memorial notice in 1889
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13732440?searchTerm=john%20stephens%20billiard&searchLimits= (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13732440?searchTerm=john%20stephens%20billiard&searchLimits=)
It also seems John became insolvent in 1867
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13157546?searchTerm=john%20stephens%20billiard&searchLimits= (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13157546?searchTerm=john%20stephens%20billiard&searchLimits=)
Apologies if you already have this information.
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Nettie, Thanks for that, I did have those links, it was the notice of his brother's death in London which led me to the connection between the 2 families - because of the name change I don't know, there may be other siblings waiting to be found. If they had continued to use the name of Tuthill throughout, it would have been a relatively easy search.
>Hi again, I've tried to read through your various links and I think I have confused myself, I >don't know how you do it...between the two families and the name changes.
It is extremely difficult, I confuse myself sometimes, so explaining it to other people doesn't always come across very well.
>Anyway, it all of that, I could not see if you had a date of death for the John who went to >Australia and changed his name.
I sent off for his death certificate, as I was hoping that his father's name woiuld be on it. However, it is not included -
John Thurston STEPHENS
Death - 2 Oct 1888
Place - 3 Nithsdale Street, Sydney, NSW
Occupation Billiard Table Maker
Male, aged 66
Place of birth England, 35 years in NSW
Father deceased, occupation Builder
> Are you absolutely sure that NSW was his destination when leaving the UK? I know he seemed > to settle there and have children quite quickly, but could he have come into any other
> Australian port, couldn't he?
I am uncertain of when and where he landed in Australia. Last child born in London was William Stephens, c 1852 - 1853 - possibly may not have been John's child. Death certificate indicates arrival in NSW c 1852 - 1853, so possibly a bit of leeway there for him to go somewhere else first.
Where do I look for other immigration records?
Margaret
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I see that you are looking for his father's name. If you do not already have it you can buy a copy of the London marriage certificate which should/may give John's father's name. Cost is GBP9.25 which includes postage. Usually arrives in 10-14 days.
John Robert TUTHILL
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1841
Registration district: St Martin in the Fields
Vol 1, p 122
http://www.gro.gov.uk/GRO/content/certificates/default.asp
Judith
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Judith, thanks for that.
I think I have proved that John Roberts Tuttle, baptised 1820, was the same man as John Robert Tuthill who married Lydia Eleanor Wilson in 1841 and had several children in St Martin's, London, England. Thus his father was Robert Tuthill, who died in 1845 at 14, Catherine Street, Strand, which was where John Thurston, billiard table maker, operated from.
The certificate should back this up, but it is not now my main objective.
It is proving (other than to myself) that he was the same person who emigrated to Australia that I want to do. Lots of evidence to support this, but the passenger list with his name on would be the final piece of evidence required.
Nettie has suggested that he may have arrived somewhere other than NSW, and I have had a look at some other lists, but really don't know where to look effectively.
Margaret
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The certificate of death you speak of
I sent off for his death certificate, as I was hoping that his father's name woiuld be on it. However, it is not included -
John Thurston STEPHENS
Death - 2 Oct 1888
Place - 3 Nithsdale Street, Sydney, NSW
Occupation Billiard Table Maker
Male, aged 66
Place of birth England, 35 years in NSW
Father deceased, occupation Builder
Margaret
You have not told us the information in the other columns.
When and where married
To whom
Number of children living and dead.
Where buried
Informant
And more
Is this because the columns are left empty?
Do you have a transcription of Anne STEPHENS' death in 1885?
As you may or may not know, a transcription will cost a good deal less than the original.
REG 2001 Yr 1885 STEPHENS Anne
Parents John & Anne
At SYDNEY
I believe the certificate could help you in listing information regarding her background, maiden name etc.
I suspect that focussing on the immigration record may disappoint as many lists of immigration are not available or simply lost :(
Sue
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I think, the common-ness (? ::) ) of the names John and STEPHENS will make it very difficult, if not impossible to track down this man's arrival. As you would know there were no passports at that time and you could change your name very easily so he may even have travelled under another name altogether. I had a quick look at the Victorian Immigration indexes on PROV but nothing positive there. The time frame for his immigration is reasonably short, especially if he was the father of the child born England, 1852.
I note the name THURSTON is used as his second name on the death information, and also for his and Lydia's child baptised 1843. Perhaps he used this name, or ROBERTS. I note also that his brother William is using the name STEPHENS by the census of 1841, while John uses TUTHILL for his marriage later in 1841.
It is certainly a conundrum and I agree with you that it looks 99.9% certain that this is the same man, especially with the notice found by Nettie.
Judith
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I have tried so far unsuccessfully to find his immigration record.
If he was a unassisted passenger you may not find a record of his arrival in the usual way.
Have you tried Trove, the newspapers? Sometimes they have people who arrived unassisted.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper
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This news item-Sydney morning Herald 23 May 1882 suggests the Henry Archibald you mention may not have been the first birth to John and Ann
The only other possibility is the interpretation that William H T was the eldest surviving
son Do you know when Henry Archibald died?
STEPHENS-STARK-May l8, at the residence of the bride's parent, by the Rev. W. Bourne, William H. T., eldest son of J. Stephens, billiard table maker, Sydney, to Matilda Marian, sixth daughter of Robert Stark, Darlinghurst. English papers please copy.
Sue
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In browsing the newspaper items listed by some of your other helpers and reflecting on those I see myself, I am noticing that relations between John and his connections in England seemed very cordial.
He announced in the Sydney paper the death of his brother William and the item I list above invites English papers to copy.
Is this the situation one would expect from a man who deserted his wife and children ???
Sue
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Just some random thoughts:
Did he marry Anne? You say he 'started a new life' with her and I'm not seeing a marriage in NSW 1850-1860 for them; would have been interesting to see what he put on the marraige certificate.
Is this one of their children? :-\
It's interesting to see the initials and may be worth buying a transcription if it is them.
1866 #833
John R T STEPHENS, parents: John R T, Ann, registered SYDNEY
Sue, it looks probable that Henry died 1870, at or near Carcoar.
3233/1870 #3233
Henry STEPHENS, parents John, Annie reg CARCOAR
Judith
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Just some random thoughts:
Did he marry Anne? You say he 'started a new life' with her and I'm not seeing a marriage in NSW 1850-1860 for them; would have been interesting to see what he put on the marraige certificate.
Is this one of their children? :-\
It's interesting to see the initials and may be worth buying a transcription if it is them.
1866 #833
John R T STEPHENS, parents: John R T, Ann, registered SYDNEY
Sue, it looks probable that Henry died 1870, at or near Carcoar.
3233/1870 #3233
Henry STEPHENS, parents John, Annie reg CARCOAR
Judith
The lack of marriage evidence is one reason that I thought her death certificate would be of interest and why I asked for the marriage information on the DC of John.
A maiden name may help.
Yes Judith, it looks like Henry died in 1870 ;)
Sue
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Looking through other inbound Australian immigration / travel lists covering different states in the same time period there appear to be no recorded Tuthill possibilities. However, there are countless John Stephens / Stevens. I really don't think you'd be able to narrow yours down as a man who can change his name could have just have easily changed his age.
His DC stating 35 years in NSW may be as close as you get and that information is only as reliable as the knowledge of the informant.
Getting his and Anne's MC and children's records may be the only way to go.
Have you been able to get a copy of the 'youngest' English child to see if he is named as the father?
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Getting his and Anne's MC and children's records may be the only way to go.
There is no recorded marriage found at this stage.
The full details of death certificates of the two parties will be the only possible sources of recorded information at this point.
Sue
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Thank you everyone for your suggestions/further information.
Sue, I have a transcription of John Thurston Stephens death certificate, I was really hoping that would give me lots of information. However, the only useful information is what I have already given.
TRANSCRIBER'S NOTE: NO MARRIAGE DETAILS OR CHILDREN ARE RECORDED IN THIS REGISTER, OTHER THAN THE INFORMANT
>>Do you have a transcription of Anne STEPHENS' death in 1885?
Hopefully that should give her maiden name, and all the details that John's should have had on it. Some online trees have her maiden name as Keast.
Judith
>>I note the name THURSTON is used as his second name on the death information, and also for his and Lydia's child baptised 1843. Perhaps he used this name, or ROBERTS. I note also that his brother William is using the name STEPHENS by the census of 1841, while John uses TUTHILL for his marriage later in 1841.
I have looked for John Tuthill, John Roberts, John Stephens, Robert John, Stephen John etc, etc, but not for Thurston, I must admit.
The Thurston is from his mother, Mary Thurston, brother of John of Catherine Street, Strand.
It appears to have been added after John went to Australia, perhaps for a bit of added kudos when the firm was failing in 1867.
giblet
>> If he was a unassisted passenger you may not find a record of his arrival in the usual way.
Have you tried Trove, the newspapers? Sometimes they have people who arrived unassisted.
Thanks for your suggestion. Most of my info about this family is from Trove, didn't know they had some passenger arrivals as well, I'll take a look.
Sue
>> This news item-Sydney morning Herald 23 May 1882 suggests the Henry Archibald you mention may not have been the first birth to John and Ann
>> The only other possibility is the interpretation that William H T was the eldest surviving
son. Do you know when Henry Archibald died?
I take it to mean the eldest surviving child.
>> In browsing the newspaper items listed by some of your other helpers and reflecting on those I see myself, I am noticing that relations between John and his connections in England seemed very cordial. Is this the situation one would expect from a man who deserted his wife and children ???
If you are estranged from your wife, you are not estranged from your brother, necessarily.
Judith
>> Did he marry Anne? You say he 'started a new life' with her and I'm not seeing a marriage in NSW 1850-1860 for them; would have been interesting to see what he put on the marriage certificate.
No marriage found. If he didn't divorce Lydia, he may have been unwilling to commit bigamy.
Is this one of their children?
It's interesting to see the initials and may be worth buying a transcription if it is them.
1866 #833
John R T STEPHENS, parents: John R T, Ann, registered SYDNEY
Yes, he is one of the children, and one of those I worry about the most. Full name apparently John Robert Thurston Stephens. Considering his first born son was baptised as John Thurston Tuthill, known as Stephens ----
Nettie
>> Getting his and Anne's MC and children's records may be the only way to go.
Do children's records have grandparent's name and occupation listed? Unless so, don't think the children's birth certs would give any useful info, for me.
Nettie
>> I really don't think you'd be able to narrow yours down as a man who can change his name could have just have easily changed his age.
The family didn't change the name to hide or anything like that. I have a theory as to the name change, but that is a topic in itself!! My English family used the name of 'Tuthill' officially - birth, marriage, death, but invariably used the name of Stephens in census and less formal records. When I first started looking for my 2G grandmother, Ure Jane Tuthill, in census she was nowhere to be found. There was a Ure Stephens, but it was quite a while before I made the connection.
>> Have you been able to get a copy of the 'youngest' English child to see if he is named as the father?
Haven't found his birth registration, no baptism found. The other children had middle names, so were easier to trace. But there again, would only prove/disprove the English side of the story.
It is relatively easy to track the wife and children left in England in census and other records. Presumably relatively easy to track the husband and new family in Australia, if you know where to look and have access to records. It is proving the connection which is more problematic. But as far as I can see, nobody is going to take time and trouble to put a notice in a newspaper, with details of their brother's death, if he is not their brother.
Therefore, John Thurston Stephens was my William Tuthill aka Stephen's brother.
Thanks for all your input, gives me a few things to think about
Margaret
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To all who have replied, Thank you very much. I now accept that I am unlikely to find a passenger record for John.
However, I have found something nearly as good - I had another look at Trove, looking for a possible arrival announcement, as giblet suggested. No luck as yet after a quick search, but I found the following advert -
5 Feb 1870, Australian Town and Country Journal (Sydney, NSW : 1870 - 1907)
J Stephens, Nephew of the late J Thurston, Billiard Tables Maker, 17, Hosking-place, Pitt-street north, Sydney. New and second hand Billiard and Billiard Bagatelle Tables always on hand. balls, Cues and Tips to order - Old Tables recovered - Orders promptly attended to.
'Hopkins and Stephens' also advertised themselves as nephews of the late John Thurston, I have a photograph of an old billiard table plate which claims them as such. Ure Tuthill aka Stephens (married to 'Hopkins'), William Tuthill aka 'Stephens', and John Robert Thurston Tuthill aka Stephens were siblings, nephews and niece of John Thurston.
Hopkins and Stephens both died in 1865, but their respective eldest sons, Richard John Thurston Hopkins and John Tuthill aka Stephens carried on in the business
Thank you once again for all your help.
Margaret
;D ;D ;D
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Glad to hear you think you have made progress, Margaret, and best of luck in your searches.
Sue
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nephew of the late J Thurston, Billiard Tables Maker,
So, do you take it that this J THURSTON is the uncle of John STEPHENS, and was THURSTON in Australia or in England??
Judith
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Judith, John Thurston c 1777 - 1850 was a very well known billiard table maker in London, operated from 14 - 16 Catherine Street, Strand, London, England.
He had no connections with Australia, other than by trade.
Plenty of information about him here -
http://www.snookerheritage.co.uk/histories-articles/thurston-co/
I had already connected him to my 3G grandfather William Tuthill, aka Stephens, and by implication to John in Sydney. Now I have found an advert where the connection is mentioned (more for added kudos than affection for a dead uncle not seen for at least 20 years, I'm sure).
Margaret
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I have found the shipping record!
I have started a new topic, so that others would read the topic (they might think that this topic had been exhausted, with 3 pages of responses back and forth.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=700489.0
Thank you all, I knew it must be there somewhere.
Margaret
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A quick update for anyone that helped me out and/or followed this thread from 2014.
Autosomal DNA testing has given me a match with one of the Australian descendants of John Robert Tuthill aka Stephens, who worked as a billiard table maker in Sydney.
It is very good to have this rather complicated branch of my tree confirmed. The person I matched up with was extremely surprised, she had no idea of the connection.
Anybody with any brickwalls or uncertainties in the last 150 - 200 years or so, please consider autosomal DNA testing.
Margaret