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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: sooty24 on Tuesday 18 March 14 22:49 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for the service record of Edward Patrick Anderson He died in WW1 on 08/08/1916 in France. He was born in Mullinavat Co. Kilkenny. I have located the record of his death on CWGC site.
Mullinavat is misspelled as Mellinvat. He served in The King's Liverpool Regiment His number was 307115.
I would be most grateful for any help
Thanks
Sooty24
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There's a tiny bit more information in "Soldiers Died in the Great War".
It says his residence was in Whitinsville, Massachusetts and that he enlisted in Liverpool
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it doesn,t look like it survived the bombing raid in ww2 as nothing apart from a medal index card is coming up [ these were kept separate from the service records ] .
regards
trevor
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Thank you both very much for the replies. At least I know a little more that when I started.
Thanks again
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Hello Sooty:
Edward Patrick Anderson was born in 1888 in Whitinsville, Mass. He was not born in Mullinavat
Kilkenny (his father was). He died on 8/8/1916 in the Battle of the Somme. His body was never recovered and his name is listed on the Thiepval Memorial in France.
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307115 was in a block issued to the 8th Battalion Liverpool Regiment - the Liverpool Irish - in March 1917. So his death must not have been confirmed until after that date. The National Archives have his number at the time of death as 4785.
8th August 1916 was the attack on Guillemont. One version of events says when the Irish took their first objective they failed to secure several dugouts. The Germans emerged trapping close to 500 Irish and 1st Bn Liverpools who had moved on. The 1st Bn Liverpool Scottish attacked at 04.20 the next morning to try and extract and in the process suffered 45% casualties. The Irish and Regulars had already surrendered.
The War Diary is available here - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354877
Ken
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Three battalions from 55 Division attacked at Guillemont on 8th August 1916. The 1/8th King's (Liverpool Irish) on the left; 1/4th King's Own Royal Lancaster in the centre and the 1/5th King's Liverpool on the right. The attack was a disaster: The King's Own were faced by intact wire in front of the sunken lane and were cut to pieces before they could get through it, leaving the right flank of the Liverpool Irish open. The trench line they were attacking had been missed off the Barrage Map and was unmolested by British artillery. The Liverpool Irish reached Guillemont, but were surrounded there and those still alive, forced to surrender when their ammunition was expended, only two men making it back to friendly lines. As mentioned above, Guillemont was a maze of inter-connected dugouts and the enemy was able to come up behind them. Only the 1/5th King's made any progress, seizing about 200 yards of ground and part of Cochrane Alley.
The sketch map below focuses on the King's Own, but the Liverpool Irish attacked in line with them, though north of the sunken road that is the modern Montauban - Guillemont Road today. If you visit the area, stand at the Guillemont end of Guillemont War Cemetery- the jumping off point was just a few yards nearer Guillemont, with the right hand platoon touching the road. The photo is taken from the position of the German machine gun that caused so much damage to the King's Own and mainly shows their advance, but the Liverpool Irish would have advanced on the right of this photo. (I hold the copyright to both map and photo, as they're from my book on the 1/4th, but have no objections to any private use of them)
(Just to add- 1/King's Liverpool did not attack at Guillemont on 8th August- 55 Division was a TF division)
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww34/IRCKevin/GUILLEMONTFILM8AUGw1_zpsae68757d.jpg) (http://s703.photobucket.com/user/IRCKevin/media/GUILLEMONTFILM8AUGw1_zpsae68757d.jpg.html)
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww34/IRCKevin/025_zpslaeesvmy.jpg) (http://s703.photobucket.com/user/IRCKevin/media/025_zpslaeesvmy.jpg.html)
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Just to add- 1/King's Liverpool did not attack at Guillemont on 8th August- 55 Division was a TF division
Sorry repeated a typo on Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Scottish
Ken
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Thank you both (Km1971 & Writer 133) for your prompt replies and information - REALLY amazing!
It helps to have a real conception of how the Battle of the Somme was fought and to better understand how Private Anderson fit into it. Do you know if it is true that for most (many?) of the
British soldiers involved, that the Somme was their first major fight and they were "unseasoned"
- so to speak? Edward Anderson was my grandfather's first cousin and was American born.
His uncle (also an Edward Anderson) had served for nearly 10 years in the Royal House Artillery,Royal Field, 18th Irish Regiment and 9th Queens Lancers spent most of it in the mid-east. (he served under Field Marshal Earl Roberts and apparently once had a bit of a set-to with Lord Kitchener who threatened to court-martialed!) He gave an interview to the "Boston
Daily Globe" on 11/29/ 1914 about his service under General Roberts who he described as the "greatest friend a soldier ever had". I speculate that Edward Patrick may have been inspired by his
uncle's tales and decided to join up himself.
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The Liverpool Irish were far from unseasoned. They went to France in May 1915 as part of the Lancashire Brigade in 51st Highland Division and fought at Festubert in June. In July 15 they went to the Aveluy-Authuille Wood Sector. 55 Division, (the old pre-war West Lancs Division) of which the 1/8th was part, reformed in January 1916 and were at Bretencourt before moving to the Somme on 21st July 1916 and entering the line in the Guillemont Sector on 30 July when they relieved 30 Division. However, with a 4-figure number of 4785, I'd hasten a guess that Edward Anderson has a possible enlistment date of around August/September 1915, though I'm more familiar with King's Own numbers. He was probably with the battalion by the end of February 1916. (The best way to find out if you've got Ancestry is to find men with nearby numbers and look at when they enlisted/deployed- though please note that numbers are 'battalion' numbers and not Army numbers and there will probably be six different men in the KLR- one from each of the TF battalions- with the number 4785 etc. You can only compare numbers from the same battalion to get an accurate date.)
The events of the first day of the Somme were the debut for the Kitchener Battalions and no doubt there will be no end of TV programs with the 100th anniversary approaching- some of which might even be accurate! There is a 3-part history of the KLR by Everard Wyrall which is very good and covers the 1/8th for the whole war.
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Likewise, the Liverpool Scottish had gone to France in November 1914 and had been blooded at Hooge in 1915. But of course with such high casualty rates about half of the battalion would be reinforcements. Also, a high percentage of the original Territorials were 'officer material' and had been taken out to attend officer training. The Liverpool Scottish charged a membership fee pre-WW1. The 5th or 6th Liverpools (cannot remember which) had a policy of only allowing Clerks or above to join pre WW1
My great uncle who died on the 9th August arrived in France in March 1916 having joined the Scottish in October 1915. One of his id tags was removed, but his body was later lost.
Ken
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The 5th or 6th Liverpools (cannot remember which) had a policy of only allowing Clerks or above to join pre WW.
Ken
Probably the 6th- the 1/6th is the subject on my next 'battalion biography' and initial research is indicating a very high number of clerks. A huge proportion of their men wounded in 1915 were subsequently commissioned- far more than I've found in the TF battalions of the King's Own. Also of interest is the difference in average heights between the 1/4th King's Own (Barrow) - about 5' 5", the 1/5th King's Own (Lancaster) about 5' 7" and the 1/6th King's (Liverpool) about 5' 9".
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thank you both again: however as I'm an American some of your military terminology is confusing
to me (ie "clerk" - to me means a clerical worker) and ("TF Battalions" ???). I'll have to familiarize myself with new terminology! I was able to track down a copy of the Wyrall volumes on the Kings Liverpool Regiment in the New York Public Library (I'm in New York City) It is listed as being in storage so I have to make a special request to see it. I've bought a few books including: "The Missing of the Somme" by Geoff Dyer and "The Somme: the Day by Day Account" by Chris McCarthy and few others including the novel "Her Privates,We" and a DVD of a film called "The Trench". Hopefully they will give me a good overview.
Geo. Comerford
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Clerk is indeed clerical worker. With its commerce, Liverpool needed many such. TF is Territorial Force, probably the nearest thing to explain it to you would be it's like the National Guard. Civilian, who trained for a certain number of days a year as soldiers and could be called up in time of war. Later became the Territorial Army and is now called the Army Reserve.
During the war, infantry regiments comprised of four different types of battalion. Regular Battalions- usually the 1st and 2nd; TF battalions, usually the 4th and 5th (the KLR and London Regiment were two exceptions to these generalities, the KLR actually ending up with 50 battalions- Wyrall says 49, but I've counted 50); 'Kitchener'or Service battalions; and various depot/ training/ or reserve battalions. The 3rd Bn was usually the Reserve Battalion. Only the Regular, TF and Service Battalions served overseas in combat roles, though some of the Garrison Battalions were posted overseas too. (Garrison Battalions were usually made up of men whose age or fitness precluded combat, but who could still make a contribution.)
If you're confused by the numbering during WW1, men in regular infantry battalions had a 4-figure number. TF battalions began with '1' in 1908 and as more enlisted, worked their way up to a 4-figure number, e.g. 4785. Numbers were battalion numbers and if a man moved regiments, he was given a new number. Men who were conscripted, or volunteered for the Kitchener battalions were given a 5-figure number. By the end of 1916, it became clear that 4-figures just weren't enough for the TF and TF soldiers were given a new 6-figure number on 1st March 1917. Usually, but not always, the numbers indicated the battalion, for example, 200123 would be 4th Bn, 240123, 5th Bn. Men who were missing in action were not usually declared dead until a year had passed, unless other information came in to suggest otherwise. Few of the bodies of those killed at Guillemont in August 1916 were found and identified, and a 6-figure number for anyone killed then indicates that his fate was unknown by authorities. The fighting at Guillemont was bitter and even the graves of men buried some way behind the lines were obliterated by the shelling. In that little bit of cornfield in my photo, 107 men from the 1/4th King's Own still lie there - never found or identified after the war.
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The Territorials replaced the old Volunteer Battalions, as said in 1908. The VBs were amalgamations of shooting and drill clubs established after a scare that the UK would be fighting France again. As clubs they had posh clubs and ones for the man in the street. The clubs were open up to three evening per week, and they had a two week summer camp.
Male clerks were quite well paid - lower middle class. Most female office workers stopped working when they married, or certainly after becoming pregnant. Before WW1 most typists were men. In the 1970s I worked with a Clerk who said that he was used to dictating a letter to a shorthand typist - almost all women by then - rather than write it onto paper himself, and than pass it to a typist, which he then had to do. So a bit above a 'clerical worker'. He probably wore a bowler hat (derby) around WW1.
The Regulars (1st and 2nd Battalion pre WW1) had reached five digit numbers by 1907. The 3rd and 4th Bns were the Militia until 1908, later Special Reserve. The two battalions shared a sequence and were one combined unit. A Militiaman could be demoted from the 3rd to the 4th Bn. The SR carried on with the Militia numbers. As said each TF battalion had its own numbering sequence, and started at 1 in 1908.
No one has done the research but it appears that all other battalions, were given 5 digit numbers in the Regulars sequence, which was probably divided into blocks. You are likely to find two men with the same 5-digit number. One in the Special Reserve - helpfully their medal cards often give them a battalion prefix - and one in the Regular/New Army sequence.
Ken
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RE.Edward patrick Anderson.
Hi there,,just to say that i am an Anderson from Mullinavat, Co.Kilkenny and am trying at the moment to research if Edward patrick was related to my family,My father and his father ,my grand-father were originally from Lukeswell,which is a small village two miles from Mullinavat,but would be in the parish of Knocktopher,and though most of the family are buried in newchapel church,just outside Lukeswell,some are also buried in a little known graveyard called Kiltorcoran,which is just passed the village of Ballyhale in County Kilkenny.I am new to Rootschat and this is my first post,but i thought that some local knowledge maybe of help to anyone interested in that area of south Kilkenny.I am continuing my research into a possible link to Edward, Patrick as i think there is a good possibility that we are related,and everyone on here seem to be very helpfull indeed.