RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: ashhill80 on Thursday 27 March 14 14:58 GMT (UK)
-
I believe that my Grandfather Sidney or possibly spelt Sydney Hill died abroad whilst working as an Engineer on a Steamship sometime between Sept 1923 and July 1928. He was born around 1867 and lived with his wife and children at Wenlock Rd, Handsworth, Birmingham. I have contacted Cemetarys, Crematorium, churches in this area is to try and locate his Grave and have been unable to find it. It also doesn't look like his death was registered in the area and so more reason to assume that he was away at Sea when he died. But where? Anyone have any advice on how I can find out where he died and then go about being able to obtain a death cert. Any advice would be gratefully received. Thanks.
-
Linking to previous threads:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=677735
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=666438
There are too many possibilities to sensibly search for a death - and that's even assuming that a death certificate exists and that it is under the name Sidney Hill or variants. As I said there, it does not appear to me that you even have proof that Sidney/Sydney died between 1923 and 1928; only that (from one of your other threads):
We worked out that he must have died after 1919 as that was when his daughter was born and Sydneys Wife remarried in 1928 and it lists her marital Status by then as Widow. So he must have died between 1919 and 1928, we have narrowed it down some more by locating one of Sidneys Sons Death Certs, Cyril died in Sept 1923 aged 12 years old and his Uncle registered his death, on the death cert, he write Sydneys name as father and that he was a Steamship Engineer, so am assuming by that, he must still have been alive in 1923, otherwise would think would say deceased.
There's no "must have died" from these facts. That a woman remarries as a widow is not proof that her husband is dead, since no checks were done (actually, if she was later charged with bigamy she could use the fact that he'd been gone more than seven years as a defence). That a man isn't listed as deceased on a child's death or marriage certificate isn't proof that he is still living - those details weren't recorded consistently.
In fact, it seems that there's a big gap between the last known son and the daughter b. 1919, and a good chance that she isn't Sidney's biological child - again, it's all down to what information was given at registration.
That's why I recommended in the last thread that you look for records for merchant mariners to find some trace of his employment. Even if he jumped ship somewhere, that might at least give you some idea what routes he was working - e.g. if he was doing UK to US routes towards the end of his career you should look US to Canada, if he was doing UK to Australia routes look at Australia and NZ records.
-
Hi Ashhill - I agree with Jorose that if you want to go through the process of elimination you must check the Merchant records, available on Find My Past. Your intuition seems to be telling you your grandfather died at sea, and I had a similar situation with my own merchant engineer gt gt uncle who suddenly disappeared from all records after the 1871 census.
Imagine my delight (if that's the correct term ::) ) when I found that he'd died in the East Indies two years later. This was through FindMyPast's Registers of Wages and Effects of Deceased Seamen b]BT 153 I think this is your best option as I'd expect that hopefully, there may be better records for the time frame you mention.
Best of Luck :)[/b]
-
hi all
having looked at deaths from 1922 to 1930 using the name s hill the following have only the surname hill and ships name ,these are the ships names that come under passengers and seamen for 1923 newlands - jade - Niagara - Shropshire - somme - Victorian - hawthorn - ardeola - bravore - beltana and 2 other records with no ship name
in 1927 Aquitania - jolly kair - nismi and one other ship with no name
I can,t see any others in the intermediate years .
I also checked outgoing passenger lists but couldn,t find anything in those but theses records are notorious for lack of detail some folk have full names some just initials and some merely a surname .
can,t find anything in either merchant seamen or crew lists for him
hopefully SEAWEED will spot this post and if anone can find anything he will .
regards
trevor
-
Hey guys, really appreciate you taking the time to look, thanks. Just tried looking for Seaweed, but can't seem to find his profile on here to be able to message him for help. Can someone get him to message me. By the sound of it could really do with his help badly. My Cousins been trying to research Sidney for years and years, I only reconnected with my Cousin last year and so obviously haven't been trying to such for him that long in comparison to her, although eighteen months feels a long time. If it's any help Sidneys Fathers name was George Hill, don't know about dates, but know he had died before 1908, he was a Grand Mariner. Also trying to trace Sidneys Birth Cert also, as want to go back down the line of hills, however don't have an exact date of birth or location.
-
have pm,d seaweed .
so anything else you know on either man post it up as it may help .
regards
trevor
-
Notwithstanding the problems with FindMyPast (Nightmare). I did find a transcript there for an S Hill died February 1923. This is from the Index of Maritime deaths 1854-1972. However, on examination of the original record, this entry proved to be non existent. Apart from that there would be no real details, such as cause of death, ship etc. in the Index, just a initial and surname and date received by RGSS. (Register General of Shipping and Seamen)
It seems to me that there are some gaps on FindMyPast for the records from BT334. What you really need is to look at the Register rather than the Index of Maritime deaths.
You would need to visit Kew and look at BT334/80 Register of deceased seamen 1920-1922 and BT334/84 Register of deceased seamen 1923-1925, BT334/86 1925-1928. If indeed you do find him, you may be able to look at the vessels logbook to see the entry of death. Most of these are stored in Newfoundland. Some at Kew and others for years ending in "5" at NMM Greenwich. Search using Ships official number
That said, I take note of the comments made by jorose and others. You can but try.
Regarding George Hill, I can find nothing on him. I understand there are records of Master Mariners on ancestry or you could contact London Metropolitan Archives to see if they have details of him in Lloyd's Captains Register.
-
Hi again, after reading Seaweed's interesting post I thought I'd better add my bit about FindMyPast's Merchant records too. I think I was very, very lucky to find my gt gt uncle on that register I mentioned in my last post (above), but for some reason I have never been able to bring up that record on FindMyPast since!
Luckily, he had a very unusual middle name and I took copies of their original Register entry.
But I also forgot to mention that I originally found a probate for him on Ancestry, even though he died intestate. This told me the date he died and the place, and that's when I turned to FindMyPast. This Register of Wages and Effects of Deceased Seamen then told me the name of the ship he was on and what he'd died of, and which port his effects were landed at before they were forwarded to England. Once I had the ship's name I could look up its number and trace the voyage etc.
I'm just wondering if you have checked Wills and Probate for your grandfather, Ashhill?
It seems that the registry office may have had a procedure for probate so they could pass on the seamen's wages and effects to their family, even if the seamen had not left a will.
-
The Register of Wages and Effects of Deceased Seamen which you refer to only applies for the years 1852 to 1889, so in this case they would be of little consequence.
Reflecting on my post of yesterday, It seems to me that there are some gaps on FindMyPast for the records from BT334.
Maybe the records from FindMyPast are complete and the reason Sidney Hill is not mentioned in the Register of deceased seamen is that he did not die at sea. Only one way to find out.
-
Thanks for clarifying that Seaweed - what a fount of knowledge you are! Those records I referred to will not help Ashhill unfortunately, but hopefully they may help other researchers reading this.
Ashhill, don't give up your search. A lot of us seem to struggle when it comes to finding deaths/burials and relatives who disappear without trace.
:) Billiegirl
-
Thanks for your help anyways guys. Don't know if it helps, but Sidney/ SYdney was in the Marines as an Enginneer back in 1908, as this is what's listed as his occupation on Wedding Cert, on his Sons 1923 Death Cert, is listed as Steamship Engineer. Also he married his Wife Mary at Southampton Registry Office, however as far as I know Mary was from Somerset and shortly thereafter lived Birmingham. Also the 1908 Marriage Cert lists George Hill, Syds Father as being Deceased already by this time. Also found it interesting that Sidney married at so late an age, he was 41 at the time he got married, which even today is kind of on the old side, makes me wonder if there was a reason for this, perhaps a spell in Prison or some such. My Grandfather refused to ever talk about his Father and so obviously must be reason for this and wondering what the scandal could be?!
-
You wrote
SYdney was in the Marines as an Enginneer back in 1908,
Do you mean "Mercantile Marine"?
In 1928, I believe, King George V bestowed the title of the "Merchant Navy" on the British merchant shipping fleets in recognition of their service in the First World War. The service was formally known as the Mercantile Marine
If so you need to look in the series BT141 (Index) and BT 139 or BT142 to establish his certificate number. Once you have this it may be possible to establish which vessels he served on and hopfully track down his demise. As far as I know these records are not available on line. So it would mean a visit to Kew
-
Hi again Seaweed - I'm just wondering if you've ever come across any apprenticeship records for Mercantile marine engineers? Or did they just learn their trade "on the job"?
It appears that my relative was an engineer with Andrew Leslie ship builders on the Tyne before his last voyage, so I'm interested in following his career path, and it might give Ashhill a new angle too.
-
Honestly not sure Seeweed, Just lists his Occu as Marine Engineer, perhaps he was Mercantile and just wrote Marine Engineer for short. Can't get to Kew, am living in States now, so makes it difficult. Wish there was something online which could help me find Sidney or George. Seaweed, if either George or Idney had died at Sea, could they have been buried at Sea? Or were bodies buried typically at next call of Port, or would have even waited until arrived back and buried where lived locally? What was the standard practise back then? Also wouldn't Sidneys Wife have to have registered his death locally? Or would she have to have gone to wherever it was that he died or Port if his body was indeed unloaded and buried somewhere that wasn't local?
-
ashill80,
Given the time frame, usually, if a person died at sea they would be buried at sea and the circumstances of the death would be recorded in the ships logbook, which in turn would be given to the RGSS to record the death (sometimes months later when the ship returned to a UK port)
Periodically, the RGSS would forward lists to the Registrars General of BMD in either England and Wales, Scotland and Ireland depending where the deceased was previously living.
If a person died ashore and was buried there, it should be recorded locally and if a British Consul was present it may be recorded in British Overseas BMD.
Seafaring by it's very nature doe's not lend itself easily to religiously recording facts. I am sure there were circumstances where the facts were distorted.
Billiegirl,
He would have more than likely served an apprenticeship. you need to look at BT150 at Kew. Be aware that not all records have survived
-
Many thanks Seaweed, I'll check that out.
Hope you can solve your mystery Ashhill!
:)