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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: robgen1 on Friday 28 March 14 06:18 GMT (UK)
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Hello All
I was wondering if any one is or has done any work on the following Persons or Doyle family
James Doyle
B:1823 approx D:1893 Liverpool NSW
married 1852
Sarah May Attwell or Atwill or Attwill (various spellings exist)
B: 1835 approx D: 1874
I can locate births of six children and know what happened to 3 of them listed
Ann Doyle B: 1857 M: 1875 J. Beckhause D:1882 as Annie Beckhaus
Mary Josephine Doyle B: 1862 M:- D: 1878 as reported in inquest 1 Nov 1878
James J P Doyle: B: 1865 M: 1898 D: 1925 Liverpool NSW
1 male and 5 females were alive at time of Mothers Death as per certificate (Sarah M Doyle nee Attwell) 1874
1 male and 3 females were still alive at Fathers Death as per certificate (James Doyle) 1893
The three that seem to vanish are as follows all born Liverpool NSW
Sarah A Doyle B: 1868
Martha A Doyle B: 1871
Elizabeth Hannah Doyle B: 1873
I cant seem to get any further I checked not only NSW Births Deaths & Marriages, and Trove (NLA Newspapers)
Any assistance or knowledge would be greatly appreciated
Regards
Greg
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They all seem to be on NSW BDM?
IE
WILLIAM T RUDD MARRIED ELIZABETH H DOYLE AT BOURKE REF # 8105/1903
Neil
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Hello Neil
thank you for reply appreciated
ie i saw the marriage of William T Rudd to Elizabeth H Doyle, of 1903
I discounted this as a possible death in Bourke was has wrong parents so does not match
2863/1962 RUDD ELIZABETH HARRIET THOMAS EMMA BOURKE
William T Rudd Died in 1923 there is no remarriage so nothing else to check against
i have been through all the possible marriages but none match
Then i also checked Sarah A Doyle # 1158/1895 to Robert Cooper but no match for Death and also appears to be no remarriage even though Robert Cooper appears to have died # 18735/1919
and was not able to locate a Martha A Doyle getting married at all between 1880 and 1940
Regards
Greg
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This family?
The three children who are so far unaccounted for would be very young when mother Sarah d. 1874
and possibly raised by extended family.
What is in inquest report for death Mary J DOYLE d. 1878 Burwood. Where is she living....what names appear on this document?
Do you have marriage certificate for Ann DOYLE m. BECKHAUSE Jacob 1875?
Where is she living and who are witnesses please....might be sibling?
What do you know about family of Sarah ATWILL........who might have raised her youngest children after she died?
NSW BDM marriage
V1852615 98 / 1852 DOYLE James m. ATWILL Sarah A LI
births
7603 / 1857 DOYLE Ann James / Sarah M Liverpool
8724 / 1862 DOYLE Mary J James / Sarah M Liverpool
9929 / 1865 DOYLE James J P James / Sarah M Liverpool
10766 / 1868 DOYLE Sarah A James / Sarah M Liverpool
11793 / 1871 DOYLE Martha A James / Sarah M Liverpool
12470 / 1873 DOYLE Elizabeth Hannah James / Sarah M Liverpool
death
5652 / 1874 DOYLE Sarah M John / Elizabeth Liverpool
2653 / 1878 DOYLE Mary J James died Burwood
1322 / 1925 DOYLE James J P James / Sarah Liverpool
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What death date 1893 do you have for James DOYLE please
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Hmm see what you mean ::) I found the other Harriet's birth as well at Bourke :-[
Well people dont vanish, so they must be around somewhere. Unfortunately an informal adoption looks likely with their mother dying 1874. Their ages of 1, 3 and 5 makes them all infants and needing higher care.
I had a look at James wife's Sarah Atwill's family thinking maybe they took over but although there are marriages within this famly nothing stands out. ???
I would be looking as to who took over care of even the 3 older one's, maybe there is something there. One other female outside of Josephine obviously died before 1893 at fathers death, but does not show up as a DOYLE
COULD THESE BE ADOPTING PARENTS
ANDREW AND MARY A DOYLE Living at Balmain & Petersham
Siblings to James could be a possible avenue ???
Neil :-\
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This probably doesn't show much more but is a possible.
ELIZABETH DOYLE... FATHER UNKNOWN MOTHER UNKNOWN AT SYDNEY REF# 2066/1875
only a year after Sarah's death ??? Childrens home maybe ::) Or of course could be an adult. No way of knowing.
Neil
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Hi Greg
It will be helpful if you could answer Wivenhoe's questions. I'm assuming that the children are not named on the father's death cert? Of the 5 girls obviously 2 of them have died (or are not known to the informant) by 1893. Sorry, no help - just random thoughts ::)
I do not have access to NSW electoral rolls earlier than the 30s - perhaps James (the son) has a sister living with him?
Judith
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Hello Wivenhoe
First of all "Thank you" for reply appreciated greatly
Jame Doyle died 21 October 1893 Liverpool
on the certificate has correct details of age etc and unfortunately no names of children just listed as
one son living
three daughters living
two females dead
Informant was Avess Doyle Daughter of deceased I assume may be either Sarah A or Martha A and used Avess as first name.
You also have listed the records i have at present correctly as per NSW BDM
the inquest document for Mary Josephine Doyle, mentions her sister Annie Beckhaus and her brother-in- law Mr Beckhaus she drowned in Burwood NSW visiting her sister and husband and was residing in Liverpool at time.
I sadly don't have marriage cert from Annie Beckhaus (nee Doyle) and Jacob Beckhaus was listed as BECKHAUSE as per BDM Cert ref.
To be honest i don't have much information re the Family of
Sarah ATWILL - ATTWILL - ATWIL - ATTWELL there are multiple spellings of names for same family that much i have been able to establish thus far. I do however know that Sarah had a sister named Avis Aviss or Aves depending on which document ie Birth Marriage Death one of each so take pick on that one and then Avess
Regards
Greg
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Hello Neil,
Once again thank you for reply appreciated
true people don't just vanish !!
the Bourke one i also considered originally, and i did the same with all the others, checked against any possible marriage with first name and any possible middle name, and came up blank.
Also i have been able to establish that Sarah A / Martha A and Elizabeth H were all alive at time of James' death in 1893, i have proof that Annie BECKHAUS (nee Doyle) and Mary Josephine Doyle both pre deceased him one in 1882 and the other 1887.
Siblings
James had two siblings one died Mary Anlezark (nee Doyle) 1852 and a brother Richard Doyle 1884
so not possible for them to have looked after the surviving children :(
Possible relations
I do not believe that Andrew and Mary Doyle of Petersham or Balmain are related to the Doyle Line being investigated and have not been able to find any evidence to establish a connection.
Looks like there may have been some sort of informal arrangement as suggested by you but who what and where.
Cheers
Greg
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Hello Judb,
thank you for your reply,
random thoughts are always "good", I have found some of the best finds have been random thoughts suggested by others, in regards to this line of Doyle's being investigated.
The informant to James' death was his Daughter Avess Doyle it seems odd that she did not mention her own siblings names ! but sadly done. as stated i think that it was either Sarah A or Martha A that used Avess as her first name.
James had 2 siblings that i have been able to establish and they both pre deceased him
Mary Anlezark (nee Doyle) 1852
Richard Doyle 1884.
Regards
Greg
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SMH 21 Oct 1895
In Mem.....James DOYLE........daughters Avess and Bessie DOYLE
In 1895, and as young, unmarried adults Elizabeth Hannah and Sarah or Martha are DOYLE.......no family name change to suggest they were taken in and raised by close family?.
BDM NSW marriage
2221 / 1864 ATWILL Avess m. HAYNES Paul Liverpool
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Good to have an unusual name to work with!
Here's the ref for the notice in the SMH 1895
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14021739
And one in 1894
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13973353
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I knew I had seen that name AVESS before while searching this morning and dismissed it. :-X
But here is another birth, must be within the family?
AVESS M DOYLE. NO FATHER. MOTHER ALICE. AT ASHFIELD. REF # 4886/1892
What is the tie in and who is ALICE?
Neil
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another sister?
BDM NSW marriage
1185 / 1868 ATTWILL Elizabeth m PARSONAGE Thomas C Sydney
1185 / 1868 ATTWEILL Elizabeth m PARSONAGE Thomas C Sydney
birth
17305 / 1870 PARSONAGE Ovess S A Thomas Charles / Elizabeth Tambaroora
(a transcription error - she is Avess for marriage and death)
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The informant to James' death was his Daughter Avess Doyle it seems odd that she did not mention her own siblings names ! but sadly done. as stated i think that it was either Sarah A or Martha A that used Avess as her first name.
James had 2 siblings that i have been able to establish and they both pre deceased him
Mary Anlezark (nee Doyle) 1852
Richard Doyle 1884.
Regards
Greg
Then Richard was James Brother and lived with Wife Mary at Liverpool as well?
One of his daughters was Alice born
ALICE A DOYLE, RICHARD, MARY J, at LIVERPOOL REF# 10661/1867
There is some connection there to thjat very, very unusual name AVESS which is not a first or second name on the list of names ???
Neil
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Hello Neil
Once again thank you
true Richard Doyle and wife Mary J did have a daughter Alice in 1867 as per the NSW BDM ref you stated. I believe her middle name was Ann :)
Avess, Aves or Avis was the name of Sarah M Atwell's sister
Not sure of the other Avess M Doyle you found in 1892 Ashfield but once again cant be one i am after as she was informant of fathers death.
However it requires further investigation as it may well be another connection !!!
Will look at that obviously to see if anything comes of it as it is very much an unusual name.
It seems that they were still known as Doyle, but just cant seem to find much out after 1895 :'(
Cheers
Greg
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Hello wivenhoe
thank you once again
yes correct Elizabeth Attwell was also a sister of Sarah M Doyle (nee Attwell)
Cheers
Greg
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Hello Judb
Thank you also again for SMH details of 1894 and 1895
Regards
Greg
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Hi,
This looks interesting:
Marriages:
19349/1935
LISTON Frederick C
STIEME Ethel M Beckhaus
Registered at PETERSHAM
1375/1903
STIEME George L
BECKHAUS Josephine E
Registered at LIVERPOOL
Birth:
4299/1877
BECKHAUS Josephine E
Father Jacob
Mother Annie
Registered at GLEBE
Leanne
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Names and dates are ok for this lady:
NSWBMD
Death
1956 #23422
Avess Martha HULLICK, 85, registered Singleton
Under the column Mother's Name is only the word: SINGLETON
I cannot see a marriage for a man with surname HULLICK
However, there are these births, all registered Woollahra.
28081/1902 Leslie J HULLICK, parents: Leslie T, Avis M
29725/1905 Ernest M HULLICK, parents: Leslie, Avis - died 1906, registered Randwick
18358/1900 Harold J HULLICK, parents: Leslie T, Avis M
Death of Leslie
7233/1907 Leslie T HULLICK, parents James, Mary; reg WOOLLAHRA
Also reports on TROVE, eg
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/112642031
Death of other sons
10229/1945 Harold James HULLICK, parents: Leslie Theobald, Avis Martha, reg MANLY
10461/1982 Leslie Joseph HULLICK, parents Leslie Joseph, Adis (sic) (No reg district given)
However, there are a number of TROVE mentions of "Mrs HULLICK" and her son Harold at Singleton from about 1915 which seems a bit odd as the DOYLE family appears to be in west Sydney areas.
National Archives has a digitised copy of WW1 papers for Harold James HULLICK which includes a signature of his mother A M HULLICK.
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx
As I said - a long shot!
Judith
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Avice is a female given name. I cannot Avess used as a family name.
I wonder if Avess is a family spelling of Avice, in which case, as long as they are consistent with the spelling, it works to your advantage in finding this family.
Can you give all the information on the death certificate James DOYLE 1893 please.
From the notice in the paper he died at son's residence Terminus St Liverpool.
What was the cause of death, and the history ie. doctor last saw him, what.....few days earlier, week earlier. Is it a sudden death, or chronic illness?.
If it is a chronic illness then James was living with his son, not just visiting?.
Daughters usually looked after ailing aged parents, so does that mean that Avess was living there as well......and they all lived there?
Did son James b. 1865 and d. 1925 marry?
If he did not, then his death certificate, with parents' names, was well informed, and might serve to locate a sister as informant. If he married and his wife was alive then she would likely be the informant.
The marriage certificate Annie m. BECKHAUS 1878 is no longer need for the purpose I suggested because we know that Elizabeth Hannah and one sister were using their birth family name, DOYLE, as adults.
The death certificate for James DOYLE d. 1925 would be your next chance to see one of his sisters named.
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YAY - not such a long shot ;D :) :D
1898 #2646, NSW, registered Sydney
Aris M DOYLE
Leslie T HULLOCK
This is from Ancestry's Australian Marriage Index - I can't get it on NSW BMD index ???
Judith
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It's there Judith... they have Aris as the groom & Leslie as the bride ::)
DOYLE Aris M m. HULLOCK Leslie T 1898 SYDNEY #2646
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
A magical incantation from our resident wizard - well found Merlin!
Judith
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1903 ERoll at Oxford St, PADDINGTON:
HULLICK Leslie - Clerk
HULLICK Avis - Home Duties
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Well done Merlin
death
23422/1956 HULLICK Avess Martha 85 YEARS SINGLETON SINGLETON
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Hello Wivenhoe, Merlin (Wizard) ;D Judb
It never dawned on me to look for for Avis Doyle as Husband and Leslie Hullick as Wife
all the other dates match as well, the multiple spellings of name did also not help as wivenhoe mentions it as Avice is correct as opposed to Aves / Avess / Avis and Aviss so no they were never all the same.
have now located the HULLICK than you so much for all help on that one
Now to find the other two :-[ Sarah A and Elizabeth H
any thoughts on the other two would also be appreciated
Cheers
Greg
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Hello Ennael
thank you for your reply,
true i will investigate further on suggestion made.
Cheers
Greg
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Evening News 21 Oct 1893 has two notices p1 and p4 for death James DOYLE, which I cannot open.
Can someone see if it names family.
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No names... here are the direct page links:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article112933504
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article112933511
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Hello Wivenhoe
Page 1
James Doyle Jnr inviting family and friends to attend James Doyle Sen. funeral
Page 4
States is that James Doyle Sen. died at his sons James Doyle Jnr's home "terminus street liverpool" and native of the town
Cheers
Greg
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This is also a long shot, but hey, my last long shot found Avess Martha.
Perhaps this is Elizabeth's death?
Avess's husband's address at the time of his death (1907) was 232 Grafton St Woollahra and, according to ERs Avess/Avis and her husband were at Oxford ST, Paddington in 1903. The children born to Avess/Avis were registered at Woollahra.
Perhaps Elizabeth was living with/near them? I don't have access to ERs of
that time but Wivenhoe might. I realise that the initial for this death is incorrect but the parents fit. And i did say it is a long shot. :D
4058/1900 #4058
Elizabeth A DOYLE, parents: James, Sarah. Reg at WOOLLAHRA
Judith
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Thank you for the information about those two newspaper items re. death 1893 James DOYLE.
I am using Ancestry to find electoral roll entries, but the franchise was extended to women later than 1900 so there would not be an entry for this Elizabeth DOYLE, and it does look promising -
4058/1900
Elizabeth A DOYLE, parents James, Sarah. WOLLAHRA
If you are a direct descendent of James DOYLE and Sarah ATWILL it would be through BECKHAUS family? What do you know about this family (who would have DOYLE cousins)....I can see them in later Liverpool registrations.
Or is this DOYLE / ATWILL family of secondary interest to you........sibling of your direct ancestor?
This usually determines how much money you want to spend on certificates.
The HULLICK marriage is a significant breakthrough, and gives you another name to work with.
I suspect that there is not much more to find for Sarah A b. 1868, and Elizabeth Hannah b. 1873. Having tried obvious marriages, and subsequent deaths for parents' names, this line of enquiry would seem to be exhausted, and obviously limited by transcription accuracy.
I think you need to buy a relevant BDM certificate. An enquiry to cemetery would also be useful as family members are often buried with or near each other. Newspaper death notices, where they exist, would give name of cemetery.
The marriage certificate for DOYLE Aris M m. HULLOCK Leslie T 1898 SYDNEY #2646
might have Elizabeth Hannah as witness.
The death certificate for 13222/1925 DOYLE James J P James / Sarah M LIVERPOOL
might have a sister as informant.
The death certificate for 4058/1900 Elizabeth A DOYLE, parents James, Sarah. WOLLAHRA
would identify her by parents' names.
It seems odd that Mary J DOYLE b. 1862 is only the second birth in ten years to this couple?
The birth certificate for Ann b. 1857 or Mary J b. 1862, would be interesting for details of previous issue.
No obvious death to see for Sarah M DOYLE b. 1868, but I wonder if the third daughter alive at 1893 is not Sarah, but another daughter born 1852 - 1862 with birth not recorded?.
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Hello judb
long shots can pay dividends :D
True it did find Avess, so thank you for that
so think i will need to investigate more !!!
Cheers
Greg
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Hello Wivenhoe
looks like i would need to purchase some certs to go any further as suggested.
I am from James Doyle brother Richard so it is a secondary interest, i have gone back as far as the arrival of James and Richard father into the Colony in 1813
I have the line from Richard and the sister Ann sorted as they were mostly straight forward and well documented in trove (NLA)
James is the last line and he has been the gnat in the wood pile unfortunately the other issue is the common first names / james - ann - mary - sarah - elizabeth and Doyle is also common irish surname.
Cheers
Greg
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There are 4 deaths Elizabeth DOYLE in 1900 on NSWBMD and the other 3 all have TROVE notices but not the one we want - grrrrrrrrrrr (not that I can see anyway ::))
Avess/Avis and "Bessie" were close enough to have shared the insertion of the In Memoriam notices for their father but not Sarah so, perhaps, she was not in close contact with the other sisters.
Will be interesting to see what is on the death cert if you get it.
Judith
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MI at Waverley Cemetery - Leslie HULLICK age 37yrs 13 June 1907.
Burial details:
Denomination: Anglican
Section: 19 Ordinary
Row: 51
Grave: 5213
Several Elizabeth's & a Bessie including a 1900 one also but none of the MI details match with the one we are looking for :(
My suggestion is to contact Waverley & see if she is buried there as the CD only lists details from headstones.
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Also checked the MI's for Rookwood Cemetery - nothing that matches :(
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Hi All,
if anyone one is interested I am directly related to Jacob (Jakob) Beckhaus who married Annie (Ann) Doyle, they are my Great great grandfather and her daughter Josephine is my great grandfather sister. Her Brother Ernest James Christian Beckhaus is my Great grandfather down to Harold Wilfred bennett beckhaus to my mother Marlene Beckhaus to me ;)
Cheers
Tracy67