RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: LizzieL on Friday 28 March 14 12:01 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to find out whether these popular Victorian entertainers were connected to my OH's family.
I have found that they were called Lechmere and Horace, but there may have been other members of the family involved.
There is a Lechmere Charles John bapt in Manningham, Yorkshire to Charles and Augusta on 14 Apr 1846, birth reg Q2 1845 Bradford district. There is also a marriage registered for him in 1877 and birth of Lechmere Horace (possible son) a year later. But I can't find Lechmere and his parents in 1851. I have found him in 1871 with several other younger Livermores all unmarried in lodgings in Liverpool all described as vocalists, so this could be the complete set of Livermore brothers (and one sister). The places of birth of this set of possible siblings are very varied, indicating parents had a somewhat itinerant occupation.
Is anyone able to locate them in 1851 and 1861 hopefully with parents so I can get a POB for Charles.
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In 1851 they're lodging in London, St George's Square Hanover area.
Charles, 36, b. London
Augusta, 30, b. Hull
Augusta S, 8, b. Manchester
Lechmere Charles,, 5 (or 6), b. Bradford
Ada Amelia, 3, b. Liverpool
Charles Louis, 1, b. Liverpool
STG
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By 1861 Augusta is a widow, and living in Liverpool with
Ada/Asa, 13, b. Liverpool
Lechmere, 15, b. Liverpool
Louis Napoleon, 10, b. Liverpool
Horace Wm, 7, b. London
Henry Augustus, 5, b. London
STG
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Thank you. I was looking on FindMyPast, so either they are not transcribed well or they are missing entirely. A Charles Livermore born in London makes a connection with my Livermores much more likely than one born in Yorkshire.
I have now tracked down baptisms of several other children on Familysearch - some very imaginative names and most had three Christian names.
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This family is getting more of a mystery.
In 1871, the Livermore brothers (and sister Ada) consist of all the others mentioned earlier on 1851 and 1861 censuses plus a George Livermore born about 1857 in Hull (same place as mother - Augusta). But George doesn't appear with the family in 1861 when he would be 4 and I can't find a birth registration for him or any trace on later censuses.
Charles (father) is not on 1861 census and Augusta is a widow, so he must have died after George's conception and 1861 census date. The only death of a Charles I can find is in Whittlesey Cambs, but since the family was in London in 1851, Hull in 1856/7 for George's birth and Liverpool in 1861, this location doesn't seem to fit.
In 1841 Charles and Augusta are living in Manchester with no children. First known child (also Augusta) born in 1842, with several more at typical intervals thereafter, so I would expect to find a marriage for them in 1840/1, but so far nothing.
Charles was born in London somewhere, Augusta in Hull and they were living in Manchester as newlyweds, so these are most likely areas
Can anyone help solve these mysteries, please?
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One theory I had was that Charles didn't die before 1861, but he and Augusta split up. No sign of a single unattached Charles anywhere in 1861, but in 1871 there is a Charles Livermore living in Willesden he is aged 62 so birth year 1809ish. In 1841 my Charles is 35 (so birth year 1802 - 1806 allowing for age rounding). In 1851 my Charles is 36 (so birth year 1815ish), so age is a bit variable. In 1841 my Charles's occupation is tailor, in 1851 foreman tailor. The Willesden Charles is a tailor foreman in 1871 and is also born in London like my Charles in 1871. Willesden Charles has a wife Eliza age 37 (so quite a bit younger) and 4 children, the oldest being 15. There do seem to be a lot of coincidences between my Charles and Willesden Charles. Next stage is to try and find Willesden Charles in 1851 to prove they are two different people.
But if not, it could indicate Charles and Augusta split up in mid 1850's, Charles moved in with Eliza and had a second family. The mysterious George might be Augusta's child with another man, so not registered as a Livermore but assumed the name. Augusta being a single mother might have gone back to family in Hull to have the child. More theories to test.
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I have just spent an hour looking around the internet with regard to your Livermore Brothers - Lechmere and Horace. There is just so much to read about them and because they were invovled with the Theatres and Showbiz in Plymouth, Devon (my home town!) it was all doubly fascinating. Well worth taking a look and see ...
Their full names were Lechmere Charles John LIVERMORE and Horace William Francis LIVERMORE.
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Thanks, I also found lots of newspaper reports about them. It looks like the act involved the other brothers as well as Horace and Lechmere in the early days (In 1871 there are five of them and sister Ada all described as vocalists. Oldest sister Augusta is described as a theatrical professional in the 1871 census. Later on the Minstrel group was expanded and Horace and Lechmere seem to have become more managers and theatre owners than performers. I am also trying to find what happened to the other brothers and sisters. One sister married a theatre manager, I saw one report mentioning a theatre manager who was referred to as both Horace and Lechmere's brother in law, so was either Ada or Augusta's husband. Unfortunately I viewed it on FindMyPast and did not download when that was still possible.
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There's a marriage on 17 Jul 1870 at St Werbergh's church in Derby, Derbyshire between an Augusta Sophia Matilda Alexiowna (?) Livermore and a John Charles Crocker.
In 1871 they're in Everton, his occupation is listed as "Professional" and he's from Brighton. For her it says b. Manchester. With them is 5mth old Augusta E Crocker, b. Liverpool - an a servant.
There's a death in Q2 1911 in Bradford for Augusta S M A Crocker, age 69.
There's a birth in Q4 1870 in West Derby of an Augusta Edith Crocker.
In 1881 they're in Bradford, where John Charles Crocker is Hotel Proprietor of the Talbot Hotel in Kirkgate. Augusta snr is there, and three children, 10yr Augusta Edith, 8yo Charles John L and an unnamed female baby under 1mth old.
1891 they're still at the Talbot Hotel and the children are Augusta E, 20, b. Liverpool; Charles J L, 18, b. Bradford; Ernest W A, 13, b. Halifax and Rhoda G J, 10, b. Bradford.
1901 Augusta is a widow living on her own means in Bristol with two daughters, Augusta E, 30, bookkeeper, and Rhoda 20, no occupation given.
From the probate register it seems that after Augusta snr died on 11 Jun 1911, probate was granted to John Charles Lechmere Crocker, spinner's salesman, so am assuming that's her son.
STG
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Unfortunately I viewed it on FindMyPast and did not download when that was still possible.
Have you tried looking in the My Saved Records tab on your FindMyPast account to see if it's still there for viewing without using further credits?
STG
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Yes I looked at my saved records, but it has a big gap from 21st March to 1st April (the day I was changed to new FindMyPast. It was in that missing 10 days. I have reported it to FindMyPast and judging from comments on other threads on Rootschat, I'm not alone in having missing searches, for the last week or twoof March. I went back to some of the census records I also viewed in that time and the images didn't have a tick by them, so if I didn't have an annual sub, I would have been charged for viewing them again. I will just have to search again. I have now found Windows snip tool, so I can copy the bit I need.
I'm getting more convinced Willesden Charles is the same as mine. There's no marriage I can find for him and Eliza. She appears as a widow in 1881 and there is actually a death of Charles in the right area and right sort of age in Q1 1877. If Eliza's age is right on 1881 census she would have been 18 when first child was born and he would almost 50!
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Just seen all the information you've found on Augusta the daughter. Thanks very much, lots of details to digest. I think it must have been Ada who married a theatre manager, I think the name was Selsdon, but I've seen a website which mentions him and I think he was also known by another name. Didn't make a note but I can probably do the search again and find it
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Ada Amelia Sara Mary Livermore, christened 8 Sep 1848, St Peter's C of E, Liverpoool.
Ada married 27 Apr 1877 in Newcastle-upon-Tyne (this family do get around, don't they?) to Robert Marion Catcheside.
1881 Ada and Robert are in Stoke-on-Trent, where he's a "Professor of Music", b. Newcastle, and with them is 2yo Lechmere, b. Hull.
1891 Ada and Robert are in Jesmond, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, where he's a "General Manager Music Something (can't quite read it)" and with them are 8yo Horace, 6yo Robert and 1yo Corbett.
Can't find them in 1901 just now, but Robert dies in 1916 in Bristol and Ada in 1919 in Bristol. Probate for her granted to Alexander Cochran, physician and surgeon and Edith Maud Langham, spinster, who's living with them in 1891, whoever she is.
STG
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Charles and Eliza are in Kensington in 1861 15/47/25
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Thank you both for all the extra information. Now that you reminded me that Ada married a Catcherside, I've found the Catcherside website again which had some information on about the Livermores. (Don't know where Selsdon, or maybe Sheldon comes in, but I'm sure I saw it in a newspaper before all my save FindMyPast searches vanished). The Catcherside webside says Charles died 1855, but no source cited. In 1861 Charles and Eliza and family (transcribed as Levermore on FindMyPast, but should have found it, it's one of the most common errors)
But so far we have:
No marriage for Charles and Augusta (expected about 1839-41)
Charles with Augusta in 1841
Charles with Augusta in 1851
No death for Charles between 1851 and 1861 although Augusta says she is a widow in 1861 and 1871.
No marriage for Charles and Eliza (expected about 1853/4)
Charles with Eliza in 1861
Charles with Eliza in 1871
Charles death reg in Q1 1877 Fulham district, coincidentally same quarter as Augusta in Leighton Buzzard district
Eliza widow in 1881.
On all censuses Charles is a tailor or foreman tailor and is born in London anytime between 1802 and 1815.
So unless a second Charles is found in 1851 also a tailor born in London, it still looks like one Charles.
I have found Manchester rate books on FindMyPast and there are several entries for Charles in various years in the early 1840's. Looks like he moved around Manchester a bit. The earliest is in 1841, when his name has been squeezed in to the register with the the date May 1841, the tenant on line below is crossed out. So it looks like he moved into a property a month before the 1841 census, which might indicate when he and Augusta set up home together.
If he did marry Augusta and then left her, it would explain why no marriage to Eliza. But not finding a marriage to Augusta possibly indicates he was already married to someone else by 1841. His age at death indicates a year of birth as 1803 /4, he could easily have had an earlier marriage.
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Just found a few more interesting snippets in the mystery of what happened to Charles Livermore.
On the 1861 census Augusta (saying she is widowed) is living with her daughter Ada and sons Lechmere, Louis Napoleon, Horace William and Henry Augustus. Henry Augustus is 5, which made me think that Charles had died after about 1856.
I have just found baptism record for Horace. Although he was born in 1851 he was not baptised until 1854.
The baptism took place at Manchester Cathedral on 29 November 1854, birth 16 Aug 1851, parents "the late" Charles Livermore and Augusta Sophia, residence Manchester, Charles's occupation tailor and Draper.
I wouldn't have thought any more except that it confirmed Charles had died before Nov 1854,
but the entry immediately above for a baptism on the same day is for Henry Augustus Willym, son of Thomas Willym Beckett and Augusta Sophia, birth 21 Aug 1854, residence Manchester, father's occupation Professor of Music.
As well as no death record for Charles Livermore between 1851 and 1854, there is no marriage for a widowed Augusta Sophia and Thomas Beckett.
The closest I can get to the possible father is a Thomas W Beckett, professor of dancing, living in Gresse street St Pancras in 1861. He is 47 and has a wife Margaret aged 28. Both born in Middlesex. There is a marriage of a Thomas Willym Beckett to Margaret Victoria Grice on April 4 1859, he is a widower and music master. And in 1871 Thomas has a different wife, Alice aged 24 and he's 57, profession music master. I wonder where he was in 1851?
I suspect Augusta claimed that Charles was dead and she was now the wife of Thomas Beckett, to explain why she was bringing a three year year old son and a three month old baby to be baptised at the same time.
It still looks as if Charles and Augusta split up and Augusta had a relationship with Thomas Beckett (or because she had the relationship with him).
This family is getting even more interesting!
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Hi,
you need to talk to my dad!
He's behind this site: http://www.catcheside.com/
There's loads more that he's not put on the page. He is very keen on the Livermore connection, and has a fair bit on Victorian music hall, including some photos of them.
IIRC, they are mentioned in one of James Joyce's novels - the Dubliners, I think.
Robert Marium Catcheside (NOT Marion.... my dad thinks but can't prove that he was born at sea) is my 2-greats grandfather.
Cheers!
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Here, for example, is a photo of the Livermore Court Minstrels from 1869, with Ada Livermore presiding:
http://catchie.tribalpages.com/tribe/browse?userid=catchie&view=62&sort=0&albumid=0&photoindex=32&rand=955630516
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In 1888 Livermore Bros appeared at Henglers' Cirque, Analaby Road, Hull. The permanent address given for Lechmere, Louis and Horace Livermore is: Netherfield House, Netherfield near Nottingham. I have an original programme from the two week run. I was just about to list it on eBay when I came across your Roots Chat entry whilst doing some research on them!
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I've found a few more things that seem to be connected.
There was a marriage between Charles and Eliza but later than I was expecting. Charles Livermore married Eliza Charlotte Hilleary on 8 Nov 1874 at parish church St Marylebone, He was a tailor and widower. She was a spinster. His father: John Livermore - upholsterer and hers was Robert Hilleary - farmer. Winesses George Hawkins and L? Hawkins.
On 24 Feb 1822, a Charles Livermore married Charlotte Scott at St Martins in the Fields. witnesses Martha Aldridge and W? Taylor.
Baptism for children of Charles (a tailor) and Charlotte Livermore
Charlotte Emma 11 Dec 1822 Westminster Lying in hospital
Louisa 3 Dec 1826 Holborn St Giles in the Fields
Louisa 7 Oct 1827 (born 9 July 1827) St James Clerkenwell
(Entry below on same date is Henry Livermore s/o George - mattress maker and Mary)
Eliza, Julia and George all on 21 July 1839 Christ Church St Pancras. no dobs recorded for these three.
1841 census has Charlotte Livermore 40 Ind, Charles 20 Tailor J(ourneyman?), Eliza 12, Julia 10, George 9 and Isabella 3 at Clarence Garden, St Pancras. I can't find Charles jnr's baptism, but given his age he might be baptised under Scott. Isabella is a mystery. Her birth seems to be registered Q1 1838 St martins but was not included in the 1839 baptism.
A Charles Livermore was baptised at St Ann Blackfriars on 8 Sep 1803 to John and Mary. No occupation given but there are several children who are his possible siblings where some records say that John is an upholsterer. One possible brother is called George and his second wife is Mary Bennett. George is upholsterer.
I haven't found Charlotte and family on later censuses or found her death, which if it is all the famly would be just before Charles's second marriage in 1874.
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Just found Charlotte and youngest daughter Isabella in 1871. Charlotte is married and says she is a tailor's wife. Isabella is a dancer. Living at 19 Saville street, Portland place, Marylebone.In 1881, Isabella is at same address, she is now head occ machinist and has taken in a lodger. This would imply that Charlotte has died between 1871 and 1881.
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Charlotte Emma Livermore (daughter) married in July 1851. The witnesses were Charles Livermore, Louis Livermore, E Livermore and I Livermore. Charles could be brother or father, but they should all be on the 1851 census somewhere.
I think I have some of them in 1851
Charlotte 53 mar needlewoman
George 19 porter
Isabella 13
Catherine 1
but Charlotte was orn Liverpool (Southwark in 1871) and Catherine is listed as daughter!. I can't find a registration for birth of Catherine Livermore and would she be daughter of a 53 year old woman?
There is a Catherine F E Livermore reg 1848, but I have found her in later censuses as someone else's daughter so not her.
This really is a mysterious family.
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Another development
Julia Livermore married Dan Hawkins. George Hawkins was one of the witnesses (possibly his father). When Charles Livermore married for the second time, one witness was George Hawkins and I'm pretty sure the signature is the same.