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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: rac3 on Friday 28 March 14 17:28 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to find out who the father of John Coupland was.
He was born in Castle Douglas in December 1850. His mother was Margaret Black who was born in 1816 and was the daughter of James Black and Jannet Clark. She was born in Urr.
John was born out of wedlock and I have been told by a relative that she found a record of Margaret being brought before the church in the Kirk Sessions. She went back to look for it and could not find it hoping it would confirm who the father was.
I have heard that in Scotland that a child born out of wedlock is sometimes given the surname of the father as the middle name of the child. I have a copy of John's marriage certificate and his father's name is given as Benjamin Black occupation farmer. I have searched Scotlandspeople site and cannot find a Benjamin Black, neither can I find a record of John's birth. I have found a Benjamin Coupland aged 21, occupation shepherd emigrating to Australia with his wife in June 1851 and a child was born on the journey and he was born in Kirkcudbrightshire.
The first record I can find for John is on the 1871 census where he was living with his mother and stepfather in Keswick, Cumberland, England. I can find census records for his mother in 1851 where she was living with her neice Agnes Morrison in Dalbeattie but there is no mention of John and in 1861 she was working as a maid in Keswick.
If anybody can help I would be grateful.
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Hi rac3
Just as a possible 1851 entry for John. There is a John Black, 7 months old, being fostered by this family:
David Thorbun 37 Stone Masson Journeyman b. Bartle, Kirkcudbright
Grace Thorbun 35 b. Lochrutton, Kirkcudbright
David Thorbun 7
John Thorbun 3
Margaret Thorbun 1
John Black 7 Months foster son, b. Tenegles, Kirkcudbright
Address: 36 Church St, Troqueer, Kirkcudbrightshire
What is the source of the birth details you have for John (b. December 1850)? 1851 census was on the 30 March that year. John above born c. Sept 1850?
Monica
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Hi Monica and welcome to Rootschat rac3-
Do you think Fanny could be short for *Margaret*?? -
Found this birth which fits with the foster child - born 14th Aug 1850 christened 6th Sep 1850 - John Black - mother Fanny Black https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYM5-R4V
Looby :)
Added- made an error and amended above (had entered Agnes instead of *Margaret*)
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Sorry, rude of me, Welcome from me too ;D
You found that entry, Looby, that's great. Fanny and Margaret, don't think they connect normally www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=fanny
Will be good to get confirmation on the source of the December 1850 birth date.
Monica
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John Coupland Black birthday was 17Th December he could have been born 1849 or 1850. John's wife died in 1899 and in the 1911 census he was living with his daughter Margaret with whom he lived with until he died in 1929. The relative who told me the date of John's birthday was the granddaughter of Margaret who he lived with for a number of years.
I have never heard his John's mother being referred to as Fanny.
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John's middle name Coupland must have some significance because there are quite a number of people in the family with the middle name Copeland including one of his sons.
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Hi again rac,
I think the John Black born to Fanny Black is probably a different boy. Maybe a coincidence that two boys with the same name are born out of wedlock. approx. same time in Kircudbrightshire.
Do you have Margaret Black on the 1841 Census? Is she with her parents?
Looby :)
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You have understood really well the sensitivies around the use of surnames for illigitmate children. Very often, surnames of mother and reputed father were interchangeable or combined.
Those Kirk Session minutes where Margaret was 'chastised by the Elders' would be really handy for you now... ::)
Monica
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Yes the name Coupland could have significance but John may have "picked up" the middle name as an adult (people did acquire middle names :) ) - then again he may have been christened with it.
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As far as I know John has always had the middle name Coupland. On his marriage certificate in 1873 the Coupland had changed to Copeland. I have been told that John was never baptised as he was born out of wedlock.
I have a found Margaret Black in the 1841 census living at King Street, Kelton aged 25. Also living there was a John Black aged 60 but this is not her father. Her father was James Black born 17 July 1796 and was baptised at Kirkgunzzion, Urr. His occupation was a weaver. Margaret was born 11 May 1812 and baptised 14 May 1812 at Hardgate, Urr. I have since found some notes with these dates on.
Unfortunately I do not live in Scotland so I am unable to look at the Kirk Sessions.
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As far as I know John has always had the middle name Coupland. On his marriage certificate in 1873 the Coupland had changed to Copeland. I have been told that John was never baptised as he was born out of wedlock.
Hi rac3
What I meant when I said he may have picked up the name Coupland was - that although this could well be his natural father's surname that it might not appear on his birth/christening record if such a record existed. So far we have not turned up a baptism , so the first record you have of John Coupland Black is his marriage.
I was interested to know if Margaret was with parents on the 1841 to see if we could locate then on the 1851 (perhaps with a young male grandchild :-\ )
Looby :)
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I have been given information that a Agnes Irving who married a Samuel Morrison in 1843 was living with a James Black who was a hand loom linen weaver in 1841 census in Urr parish. But was given no information of Margaret living with them. I have not been able to find this census record on any of the ancestry sites. This Agnes is the Agnes that Margaret was living with in 1851 and Margaret was listed with no occupation.
John's mother was working as a maid in Keswick, Cumberland in 1861 census. I have found a John Black in the 1861 census living in the Poor Law Union Workhouse in Cockermouth, Cumberland aged 10 but under the birth column it says birthplace unknown.