RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: jazdrv on Monday 31 March 14 15:19 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I'm a new member to rootschat and have been realizing some wonderful help so far on this site so far, and figured I'd attempt another topic and see where it goes.
I have an ancestor with the surname of McEntee - who if my clues aren't leading me astray lead me to a family whose father William Charles McEntee was born in Dublin in 1823. This same William Charles McEntee had his family in the Birmingham, England area. And, he died in Jersey 1894.
I'm trying to research his William's early Irish life and the resources are difficult to come by. I'm assuming due the fire in 1922, etc. there are no census reports to refer to. I'm curious what other options there are for research?
Not only am I interested in tracing the family further, but I have some other issues that I'm trying to work out.
(1) There was another William Charles McEntee in that area it seems who married Kate Williams Burchell and had a son, Henry Hugh McEntee (1869-1949). I'm sure the name was common for that area, but for my own sanity, I'd just like to outrule that the two William's aren't the same.
(2) I have very good reason to believe that the William that lived in England had another child and this child is nowhere to be found in the English census reports living with them. So I'm trying to figure out where this "other child" grew up and lived. This other child -- it's sort of a long story to explain. But, his name was William Charles McEntee also. (born around 1865) And he moved to Central America and had children there. So I'm looking into other leads regarding his childhood also b further researching his father.
I'm also currently living in Aberdeen, Scotland these days -- so getting over to Ireland for a weekend or so (to do research) isn't a crazy idea -- if anyone knows how to direct me?
Zak Jones
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Hi There Zak and welcome !
My first question would be do you have Charles' marriage certificate, to get his father's name and occupation ?
Tara
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The Charles McEntee on Irish Genealogy 1868 was a medical student and his father Edward Alexander was also in the medical profession ,does this relate to the Birmingham McEntee.
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Thank you so much for replying. :)
First off, I apologize. The title should have read:
William Charles McEntee (not Charles William McEntee).
There are two men with the same name, both from Dublin -- that I'm wondering if somehow they were the same person. Both born around 1823. (not 1868)
One of these men married an English lady (Emma Kenworthy 1827-1908) in Birmingham in 1851. They had a family in the Birmingham, England area. They had quite a few kids.
The other one had a son with a lady in Ireland (Kate Williams Burchell unknown birth and death) but they had a son (Henry Hugh McEntee 1869-1949). I know very little about this family. But it seems they were in Dublin also. All I have is the baptism record for the son. So I can't guess how long they were together.
I'm looking at the coincidence of these two men because they seem to be from the same area, obviously have the same name, and I'm assuming at the same age at the same time. Etc.
Ireland seems difficult to get information for the 1820's and 1830's. So I was wondering how to find more information for this specific time period. Even if the two men aren't the same, I'd still be interested in knowing more about their lives.
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Hi Zak
Firstly you need to clarify - you state that you have a 'McEntee ancestor' who exactly is this ie names, year of birth, place of birth, occupation, marriage etc etc
All the info that you give us on this person will help us ascertain exactly whom we are to look for in Dublin.
Tara
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Thank you Tara for following up yet again.
I'm new to this process so please forgive me if I'm asking an atypical or silly question.
My line with this is that I have an ancestor (and a different - from what I previously mentioned) "William Charles McEntee" born 1865 or 1867 in Birmingham. This particular man went to Guatemala and had children. He would be my grandmother's grandfather. I'm currently investigating him now (a separate rootschat discussion) and just today someone gave me a tip on where I could get his birth certificate in Birmingham.
And it's his father (as I understand) who was also named "William Charles McEntee" that I'm looking into. His father was born in Dublin according to my ancestry.com sources. I know very little about the father's actual time in Ireland except for the idea that he was born in Dublin in 1823. I only know about his time in England.
This is my ancestry profile on the father: http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/67935280/person/30177976371
And, this is my ancestry profile on the son (so far):
http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/67935280/person/30173366909
The father (in Birmingham) was married to Emma Kenworthy in England. The father was operating a manufacturing business for guns and weapons in England, I believe. I've also seen references to him as being into hardware manufacturing. And interestingly, I've seen in britishnewspaperarchives.co.uk, his name in ads having to do with the West Indies. How or why all that hangs together (if they do), I have no idea.
That really (I'm sure) doesn't help at all figuring out his story in Ireland... :(
I was trying to find more information about the father and his time in Ireland (ie: census reports) but I can't find any clues to look further into this.
I did (however) find references to another William Charles McEntee who is mentioned as being a father to Henry Hugh McEntee (1869-1949) from Dublin. So I'm thinking it's plausible they're one and the same person. Probably not, but it is plausible so I was curious about that lead.
I have a profile on Henry Hugh McEntee here (ancestry) with this other William Charles McEntee as his father mentioned there: http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/68488825/person/40184841124
I know absolutely nothing about Henry Hugh McEntee or this other William Charles McEntee -- I can't find anything further on them in ancestry. but it's intriguing to me because of the identical name, the identical town (Dublin), and the identical timeline roughly.
My interest in all this again is to research the origins of my ancestor. I'm trying to find further records of William Charles McEntee into Dublin. And learn more about how to research properly in Dublin and Ireland generally for this time period.
Outside of this information, I have nothing else. :( But, I'm eager to learn how to approach it...
Zak Jones
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Hi There Zak
The reason why I ask so many questions is that a lot of the time when I am helping people I later discover that they have run with a lead and made WAY too many jumps back without verifying each and every step along the way.
So, I like for people to give us information on the person whom they are 100% sure of and have lots of information to back this up.
The reason behind this is that Irish records pre 1864 are far and few between and you need a lot of information from the country that your ancestor emmigrated to before even starting in Ireland.
While a name like William Charles McEntee / Dublin / 1823 may seem like a lot of information I'm afraid it's not.
You need to know exactly what part of Dublin William came from to see if church records for that parish still exist, and the religious denomination that he was.
Then you need both his parent's names and his mother's maiden name.
Then an occupation for the father.
While you can get inroads with just some of this information it's best to have as much of it to be positive that you are researching the correct family and not just someone whom happens to have the same name !
So, if I'm reading you correctly William Charlton McEntee b 1865 ish in Birmingham is your Great Great Grandfather . . .
So, my next question is - Do you have the marriage certificate for his parent's William Charles McEntee and Emma Kenworthy ? What has been given as William Charles' father's name and occupation ? Also, have you gotten Dublin just from census ?
Tara
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While irishgenealogy is a great site it does not have all church records from all of Dublin, mainly just those in Dublin City Centre and even then there are a lot of records missing or mistranscribed.
Anyway, for now I think this record is worth researching
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/a4e0450187798
I don't see how the other William Charles that you have referred to could be yours as it would make him a bigamist, also occupations etc do not match !
Tara
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File this as a possible sister to William Charles :
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/b6c4350187281
Tara
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ancestry show an 1811 marriage licence granted to a William McEntee and Jane McCaul in Dublin !!!
Tara
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The 1851 English census shows a William McEntee b 1785 Dublin, Ireland living in Birmingham - have you research this chap to see if he is William Charles' father ?
Tara
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Tara,
You've been incredibly gracious with your time. I honestly didn't know what to expect by coming to rootschat. Or upon asking how to retrieve Irish information specifically. I do have some other family members on other parts of my tree that I'm sure will be their own challenges. So looking for William McEntee (probably one of the odder and mysterious parts of my tree) is my first attempt to just simply understand the process.
And thank you for finding William and Jane. :) I'm guess that's a bit ambiguous though. I can see what you mean by needing more background information to see if it's really a match!
Regarding some of your other questions (and again, you'll have to forgive me on my answers -- I'm a true novice!):
- William Charles McEntee (b. 1865) is my g-g-grandfather.
- William Charles McEntee (b. 1823?) would be my g-g-g-grandfather.
- William Charles McEntee and Emma Kenworthy marriage certificate -- I have this through ancestry's default hint help: http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=FreeBMDMarriage&h=19324627&ti=0&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t67935280_p30177976371_kpidz0q3d30177976371z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid I don't know if this is a true marriage certificate. But ancestry is suggesting that this is proof of marriage to Emma Kenworthy in Birmingham in 1851 when he was 28 years old. I'm guessing you're suggesting that I find a "real" marriage certificate as it may show proof of the parents and potentially the father's occupation?
- Proof of William (the father)'s birth location being Ireland: 1861 census (http://trees.ancestry.com/pt/ViewRecordRedir.aspx?tid=67935280&pid=30177976371&dbid=8767&rpid=20864849&nam=William%2bCharles%2bMcEntee&pg=32768&pgpl=pid), 1871 census (http://trees.ancestry.com/pt/ViewRecordRedir.aspx?tid=67935280&pid=30177976371&dbid=7619&rpid=2756733&nam=William%2bCharles%2bMcEntee&pg=32768&pgpl=pid), and 1881 census (http://trees.ancestry.com/pt/ViewRecordRedir.aspx?tid=67935280&pid=30177976371&dbid=7572&rpid=23624658&nam=William%2bCharles%2bMcEntee&pg=32768&pgpl=pid). 1871 and 1881 censuses say he's from Dublin. I only have proof from the censuses.
- Proof of William (the father)'s occupation: 1861 census - says he's a hardware merchant, 1871 census - says he's a merchant manufacturer, 1881 census - says he's a foreign hardware merchant.
- Proof of William (the father's) year of birth: 1881 census - would put his YOB at around: 1823, 1871 census - would put his YOB at around: 1822, 1881 census - would put his YOB at around: 1824. So I'm guessing his real year of birth was 1823.
- Proof of William (the father's) religion: I wouldn't know how to get that.
- Proof of William (the father's) part of Dublin that he came from: I wouldn't know how to get that.
- Proof of William (the father's) parents name and including mother's maiden name: I wouldn't know how to get that. :(
- Proof of William (the father's) father's occupation: I wouldn't know how to get that.
- Regarding the William McEntee b. 1785 in England. I'm getting the sense, that I should exhaust all possibilities before getting into Ireland, because doing the research there is a bit painstaking. I haven't looked into that lead. And I will!
- Regarding the William and Jane in Dublin, I'd like to know more about them absolutely! But, I'm thinking it may not be a match because of the years involved. Their son wasn't born between 1822-1824. And, I'm feeling cautious about looking into this further if it's a hard process. :( If it was a better year match, then I'd feel more confident.
I'm thinking perhaps trying to get a proper marriage certificate (if that's not what I have) might be the next step as it may reveal more clues?
I've also seen some articles in the britishnewspaperarchives.co.uk for William Charles McEntee in Birmingham. Per your advice, I'm thinking I should do my best to get more background information.
Does that sound like a good plan?
Zak
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Hi Zak,
Yes
1. Order the actual marriage certificate for William and Emma (I'm afraid though that I don't know how to do that re English records)
2. While waiting on that cert to arrive research the William McEntee whom is in Birmingham in 1851.
3. Get back to us when you have the certificate with William's father's name and the father's occupation on it and we'll see can we get better leads over here then !
Best Of Luck
Tara
PS Use YOB on paperwork as a loose guideline - 200 years ago there wasn't the same priority's on birthdays that there is today - I have people on my own tree whose dates vary over 20 years from one document to another !
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The 1851 English census shows a William McEntee b 1785 Dublin, Ireland living in Birmingham - have you research this chap to see if he is William Charles' father ?
Tara
William in Birmingham in 1851 is unmarried and 26ish yrs. (difficult to read) He is a Merchant's Clerk so presumably your William. His age has been mistranscribed.
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Good spotting Heywood !
Tara
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Thank you both Tara and Heywood. :)
I really appreciate both of your replies. (And I'll update my records with the 1851 census! Yay!) I'll do my best to get some further information (if I can) and circle back.
Zak Jones
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I'm still looking through newspaper articles. But two things I've figured out: (1) he was an officer in the Mason community in Birmingham. There are quite a few articles mentioning him. (2) he contributed to the founding of an Anglican Church in Birmingham (Immanuel Church).
The other things I've seen on him I think I've already mentioned. Specifically: (1) he was involved with foreign hardware manufacture (whatever that means) - i'm pretty sure he was the owner of the business, (2) he was involved in an attempt to reestablish a west indies trade company. i looked up the wiki on 'west indies co', and it seems there were a couple evolutions of it, the last one (which didn't appear to get off the ground so well), i believe my William McEntee was one of the main partners.
Not sure exactly what that might reveal for his roots in Dublin. I'm still digging...
Zak
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If I recall, Emma is missing from census in 1871 and Edward the son is also missing. Presumably he is away at school but young William would probably be too young.
I can't see Edward anywhere in school in England.
I know it's not much help but just part of the bigger picture.
Does William's will mention all his children?
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Heywood,
Thank you for replying. I don't have a copy of the will yet. I will get it. Someone (who has it) told me:
Father, Wm Charles Augustus McEntee, Will read that son, Edward, was appointed executor. At that time, the estate was to be divided among all of the living children except one son, WCMcE. It seems as if there was a disagreement between father and son. Father was a gunsmith and he had a factory for "needles and/or pins". He was "recorded as being a Foreign Hardware Merchant and Commercial Clerk".
Regarding the censuses, I've been able to see 1861, 1871, 1881, and 1891 on ancestry.
For 1861:
William C McEntes 38
Emma McEntes 32
Eliza J McEntes 8
Edward H B McEntes 6
Mary A M McEntes 4
Elanor J McEntes 1
Rabacca Rawlings 19
Elizabeth Meridith 20
For 1871:
William C McEntee 49
Eliza Laura McEntee 18
Helena F McEntee 11
Kathleen W McEntee 9
Charlotte A McEntee 7
Charlotte L Eckett 21
Fanny T Stokes 20
Anna C Chidley 32
Lydia Reed 23
Fanny Jackson 20
For 1881:
William C. McEntee 57
Emma McEntee 53
Helena McEntee 21
Kathleen McEntee 19
Charlotte McEntee 17
Richard N. Hart 2
Henrietta Turner 22
Ellen Tait 33
Eliza Woodward 23
Annie Wills 22
For 1891:
William C McEntee 67
Emma McEntee 63
Edward B McEntee 36
Emily McEntee 38
Charlotte A McEntee 27
Norville Hart 12
Evan B McEntee 6
Sarah Forster 18
I hadn't noticed that and that's truly interesting -- you're right. Emma isn't there in 1871. That's a strange coincidence because that's right around the time that "another" William Charles McEntee has a child with Kate William Burchell in Ireland. That child is born Nov 14, 1869 (at No 3 South City Dublin) and named Hugh Henry McEntee.
I'm also investigating another child of William Charles McEntee (the one in Birmingham) with the same name (who also isn't mentioned on the censuses). But that's another issue altogether.
My William McEntee in Birmingham looks to be in a very high social class there. I can't imagine that he's entirely self-made considering how it was in those times. I'm guessing he had parents that were well positioned in Dublin (or Ireland) where he come from as well.
I'm also seeing in these articles he was a big patron of St. Paul's church in Birmingham. So it appears he was Catholic basically.
I'm curious what sort of records Masons have (and give out). Perhaps his father was a mason.
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St Paul's is C o E, I think not Catholic.
His involvement with the Masons and the foundation of the Immanuel Church would be at odds with being a Catholic.
I did read your other thread re William Charlton McEntee and am answering here rather than there. I haven't checked that one to see if you have any further information there.
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Thanks Heywood.
You're probably right. :)
I based my conclusion on this from this St. Paul's website (which I assumed to be the right place):
http://www.saintpaulbrum.org/
What we believe
- St Paul’s Church belongs to the Church of England Diocese of Birmingham. As such it is part of the one, holy, catholic (universal) and apostolic Christian Church.
- The St Paul’s community worships the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
- We speak and teach the Christian faith as it is revealed in Scripture (the Old and New Testament of the Holy Bible) and as it is set forth in the catholic creeds (the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed).
- We are called by God to proclaim this Christian faith in fresh and relevant new expressions in every generation.
I personally wouldn't know though about such things.
I've seen alot of really interesting articles that WCMc had in the newspapers. Many are to do with church stuff he was doing, the masonic stuff he was doing, etc. But these ones are particularly interesting (attached)
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I was able to find 105 articles in all between 1859-1890 - I believe all with his name.
Here's another:
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Hello again,
This should really be posted on your other thread but I can't see it at the moment. You may gave already seen it.http://www.rotaryfirst100.org/global/countries/El%20Salvador/index.htm#.U0AA3Ce9KSM
Heywood
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Heywood,
That was an INCREDIBLE find! :) I think I might well have another grandfather in that picture. Very very very cool. :)))
Thank you!
Zak
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That's great!
Every now and again, I have a look to see if anything turns up and as you say, that is really good :D
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Getting back to my original purpose for this thread... I've been talking to someone else on ancestry who's given me a great deal of information on this family. All of which has turned out to be true.
And she tells me the father (of the son who was born in 1823) was a Custom House Clerk and lived in Birmingham, England at the time of WmCAMcE marriage. That marriage was in 1851.
So we know the father's profession. We know the religion.
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Hello again,
that's good news that you are getting more information.
It would be interesting to know where the information comes from re the father of William (1823) in Birmingham in 1851.
The only William who seems to be in the 1851 census is the Merchant Clerk whose age has been mistranscribed and is presumably the one who marries the same year.
It may be that the marriage certificate states that father is a Customs House Clerk which great.
Could your informant give more help, perhaps?
regards
heywood
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Hmm, you told me about that before. And it looks like a 26 on there. Not a 66. (To me)
Need to dig more...
Thanks Heywood.