RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: shelly 65 on Wednesday 02 April 14 15:50 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
i am VERY new to this,i have been looking on just about every fee paying webb-site for information.(got nowhere)..
My aunt was seeminly born in Tayport 25/10/1915 illegitimate we have "no surname"but know whom she was fostered out to,i am looking for information on the fostering out bit whether it was from an instistution or the church,do not know where to look.
Gratefull for ANY input.
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Hi shelley 65
Don't think you are likely to find any record of this really. Especially online :-\
Adoption, never mind fostering, was only made legal in Scotland from 1930. See www.nas.gov.uk/guides/adoptions.asp
Monica :)
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Hi
Further to Monica's reply there is also this one
http://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/research/economicsocialhistory/historymedicine/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/
Yours Aye
BruceL
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Hi Monica
sorry i could not figure out how to reply to you ???,hope this is the way.
Thank you for your reply, i rekon too that i will never solve the mistery especially when she had no birth cert.,
What i cannot understand is how she managed to get her state pension and a passport without the birth cert.,
Anyway thank you very much for your reply. 8)
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Hi Brucel,
thank you for the link you sent ,very interesting,much appreciated. :)
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Hi Shelly
Hard to say without knowing more. How do you know about this aunt, including her birth date and location of birth?
You say she was illegitimately so likely she would show under mother's surname on the statutory birth register. There will be birth registration for her, given the period. Just a question of how it was registered/indexed. If the reputed father accepted paternity and attended the registrar's office to register birth, then father's surname and details were also included.
If she was fostered from very young, she could have been adopted?
What do you know, if anything, about her later years.
Unfortunately given it is a 1915 birth, it is not possible to view images of birth certs online as you have found as the 100 yr rule due to privacy rules applies.
If you are in Scotland, you have some options in terms of viewing more recent BMDs at one of the main genealogy centres or registrar's offices.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
it is a long complicated story,i am unsure if i can explain it in a uncomplicated way,i will try to be as brief as possible.
My dad was also taken in(fostered? i do not know)by David &Rachel,when my dad was due to get his state pension he then found out that David&Rachel were not his parents.My aunt(my dads step sister)had no birth cert.,either but she knew her birth date and where she was born(tayport)she also knew that she was fostered (as she put it) never knew her mother or father or their names,she, like my dad was given David&Rachels surname.I have been in touch with NAS in Edinburgh and also the church in Tayport nothing can be found with only her given names.
We did find my dads birth so we know who gave birth to him and we know his proper birth name.
What really confuses me is how did David & Rachel get these kids,there are more that my dad and aunt.
They are all gone now.
Monica i hope you dont wish you had never asked... :)
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Oh, don't worry about me, or anyone else here on RC...we love really complicated puzzles ;D
Did David & Rachel keep your father's first name from birth or was that also changed?
David & Rachel sound like good people who gave a home to many a child from what you say.
Have you been able to check your aunt's marriage cert or her death registration? Sometimes information creeps into the certificates.
Monica
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When you say you have been in touch with NAS, do you mean the National Archives of Scotland or the GROS(the General Register Office of Scotland)?
Monica
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Yes Monica my dads first name was kept.
Looked at my aunts marriage cert.maiden name same as David &Rachels ,my aunt died in Australia in 2000 where she stayed with her daughter she is also gone.
It is her son and i thats trying to find all this information,it has been a very exciting journey for us both,i have sugested that he writes to Australia for her death cert,but we both feel that it will be her step parents name thats on it...its no easy..I do not know if i am aloud to put names on the forum? :)
David i knew very well loved him very much,Rachel died before i was born..
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Sounds like you're both having a journey...and wonderful that you are both there doing it together.
You can mention your aunt's name here on RC given you have confirmed that she has passed away. There is only an issue with discussing living people here on RC (in order to protect living people's privacy etc).
I have been looking here on Scotlands People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?624 trying to refresh my mind on the issue of GROS reference numbers. There were only 22 baby girls born in Ferry Port on Craig in 1915, so all the births show on one page of the indexed search results.
The main ref on the page I am looking at for Ferry Port on Craig births in 1915 is 429/00 and then a four number set, so I am wondering if we can get some clues on when in the year they were born. From the sequence showing, there looks to be entries from 0005 to 0049. It is an imprecise science for now as you would need to double check any possibilities against the actual image.
If you can tell me her name (and any middle name she may have used) I will have a look on the page of results I have.
Monica
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Ethel Edna or Ethel Edwina.
David and Rachel Surname Connelly,
Thanks Monica my cousin lives up north from me and is not computer minded,but loves it when i come up with some news,his mum Ethel is the only one we are stuck on. :)
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Can't see any Ethel birth in 1914-16 in Ferry Port on Craig unfortunately :-\ There are Ethel births in the rest of Fife, but none with a middle name of Ed*na (using the wildcard to pick up on spelling variations).
Tried also just searching just for Ed*na. Again nothing in Ferry Port on Craig, with a few possibilities just going by first name in the rest of Fife.
Assuming that Ethel remembered (or knew?) her birth date correctly, at the moment you have to think that her first name registration was either just Ethel or Ed*na, and she may have been born outside of Tayport. Did David and Rachel live in Tayport at the time?
The names Ethel and Edna/Edwina are not particularly Scottish are they.
Hard to do this online when you need to be viewing the actual records in Scotland at a terminal :-\
Monica
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Yes Monica,it is a difficult one.
David and Rachel came from north ireland after 1901,they were in Greenock in 1906 where there only blood child was born,Rachel had a child before she married David the child was given the Connelly name after they married,then in 1908 they had another child (in the 1911 census it says adopted) his name Ronald Weighill born in LEEDS..mothers name Eva...the child died in 1913 David described as his guardian.by this time they were in Fife,my dad was born on Nov 14 1914,then Ethel they were in Cupar in 1915 but gone from there by 1917 valuation roll,they really moved around as farm workers did.
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Just every so often you find details of someone's children on their war service papers, in this case WW1 for David. This can include dates of birth and birth locations etc.
Have you tried looking at this area? Not always successful as many service papers were destroyed by a bom//fire during WW2. What year was David born (assume in Ireland from what you said)?
Monica
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Hi all,
Reading your puzzle with interest Shelly and as Monica says there's nothing the great members of Rootschat like better than a good old mystery.
Can I ask did your Aunt Ethel live in Australia for a long time - I mean did she emigrate there in as a young woman (before passports would be required) or did she go as an older woman?
Looby :)
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Hi,
she did not emigrate to Australia she went to stay for holidays with her daughter after her 2nd husband died in 1975,she stayed with my parents untill my dad (her step brother) died in 1987..Blimey confusing eh? :)
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Looby many thanks,hope you still find my mystery interesting tomorrow,dinner time for me ..many thanks :)
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Monica thank you very much for your staying power,i am signing off to have my dinner,hope all my helpers are there tomorrow when i get home from work.
Cheers :)
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Hi Monica,
just wondering if have had any luck ?
I was thinking that Rachels son was in the Gordon Highlanders when he lost his young life in 1917,
i have a print off with his name, when he died and where he is now but i do not know how to get more information about his death,nothing had been kept by David & Rachel i would have known about anything as David stayed with my mum and dad after Rachel died in 1936.
Hope you are still with me. :)
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Hi Shelly
Haven't made any further in roads really on Ethel. This needs a personal search at one of the main genealogy centres to be able to access this more recent information. Even if 1915 was available today (it will be next year on Scotlands People), I would guess it would be too expensive to go looking at every option online. There are not '00s of options, but enough to make it expensive to do so this way really with such little info. May be worth considering looking to get a researcher to do this for you? Sometimes other RootChatters offer to also step in and have a look to help out, whilst doing their own research at one of these centres.
What was the name of Rachel's son that died in 1917? You said he went by the surname of Connolly after David and Rachael married? Do you have a specific date when he died in 1917 and his age?
Monica
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Hi folks,
I'm just puzzled as to how your aunt got a passport if she was not able to produce birth documents ???
I have a friend who was born abroad (on a military base in 1950s) to 2 British parents (serviceman and wife). He had lived in this country for almost 30 years , parents died when he was a teenager and any birth document was long gone - when he had to get a passport and there was a great houha about his birth cert and proving where he was born.
Your aunt must surely have had something to prove who she was to get a passport :-\
Looby :)
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I would think so too Looby, specially given what a fine age she was to be travelling around the world and the carry on that now goes on relating to the Passport Office (for all the obvious reasons today).
Because I have seen this type of query come up before, I have often wondered (but don't know who to ask :P) whether the Passport Office releases this type of information to nearest relative after someone has died...or whether the info would be locked up for another 1,000 years before general release (if ever ::)).
Similarly, maybe like your Dad, Shelly, Ethel had to provide a birth certificate when she applied for a state pension? She was a year younger than your father from what you said, so would know of his experience?
Just curious...if your father only found out that David and Rachael were not his parents when he applied for his birth cert whilst getting his state pension organised (c. mid 60s?), is this the time that Ethel also found out about her relationship to David and Rachael?
Monica
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Thanks Monica,
his name was Thomas James Magee,born in 1896 David and Rachel married in 1898,in the 1901 census his surname was Connelly..he died in ww1 31/7/1917...
Private ..Thomas Connelly..242297,1st/5th.,bn.,Gordon Highlanders..if i knew where to look for more detailed info on his death i would find that interesting.
I have looked into a personal researcher,they seem to think i have done all they can do (ordinary folk) i also do not have the spare time to go to Edinburgh to look through all the info they have,so i am suckered.
I should be retired from paid work but if i was i could not afford to find out about my past..
Cheers Monica. :)
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Looks like Thomas Connelly died at Passchendaele :(
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/battle_passchendaele.shtml
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Hi,
just to add to the mystery David&Rachel had put Ethel out when she was 16yrs (why ??) Bad girl) they were very religious(?) folks...My dad/mum only came in contact with her again through her 2nd husbands death in the paper 1975....oh my sorry for all this mixed up info.
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Thanks for that link Monica i will look it up ..cheers.. :)
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To all my helpers,do you think my adventure is hopeless? :'(
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That was Looby's link, Shelly, but wondered about that Thomas Connelly entry. This Thomas is the the only Connolly who died in 1917 who was in the Gordon Highlanders I think. Some databases have him born at Newton Mearns, Renfrewshire. Was Rachel already in Scotland before 1901?
For some reason, couldn't find a listing for him here www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx
Monica
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To all my helpers,do you think my adventure is hopeless? :'(
No Shelly. The frustration is lack of access to the online resources for this period. I am guessing that you are not in Scotland...or maybe you are :D
Monica
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Definately born in Masoquin county Derry 1896...they all in the Irish census in 1901.. must have came to Scotland between 1901 and 1905..oh dear hope this is not another journey.... :'(
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YES.
in Scotland....Fife... :) :)
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Hurray that you are in Scotland and closer to the actual records! One possibility would be to go to one of the main registrar offices I think and pay for an hour's time to access this info. I am not 100% on how you go about doing it this way rather than via Edinburgh and Glasgow. Let me ask/check.
Thomas Connelly's details bother me. I can't see service papers for him as yet. He shows on the database 'Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919' with the birth place I mentioned. Enlisted in Glasgow. No age given to help us further now. I think there might also be a mention to this Thomas Connelly on the Newton Mearns War Memorial from WW1 (see www.mearnshistory.org.uk/page112.html). If you click on the name Thomas Connelly on the list, it takes you to another screen. Unfortunately, a bit of a mixed up page. They have attached the wrong commemoration - another Thomas Connelly who died in 1919 - but the details at the bottom show similar as to what I saw with the reference to Newton Mearns for birth. Additional info given is birth year of 1883 and parents' names?
Who gave you these notes for Thomas? Was it David and Rachel or somebody else?
Monica
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No one Monica only looked on the webb,and with what my mum and dad said...maybe the wrong guy eh??? did not think there would be many Thomas Connelly"s but there you go..
You are an insperation to me Monica ,thank you very much. :)
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There is a Thomas Connelly showing as born in Newton Mearns c. 1884 on the 1891 census, parents Michael and Bridget. A brother John also shows in the entry.
There was also mention on the Newton Mearns WW1 Memorial of another son of Michael and Bridget Connolly, John, who died 1915. Details also on the link I added before.
I don't think that the Thomas who died on 31 July 1917 was Rachel's son :-\
Monica
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Shelly,
Do you have the marriage details for Ethel's first marriage?
There is an Ethel Edna Connelly marries in 1933 at Arbirlot in Angus. If you don't have this info you will be able to look at the marriage entry on Scotlands People. Then you can tell us who her husband was, when they actually married, what age Ethel gave and who she named as parents.
Looby :)
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Yes Ethel married Gordon White in Arbroath Angus Scotland she was 18 yrs old had one daughter in this marraige Ruth Ann ,then she divorced,and married a Les Calder,the dates i can look up no problem.they had one son from this marriage he who i am working with at the moment,his dad died in 1975, :)
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Ethel's divorce papers (she is showing as Ethel E Connelly) show on NAS www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/ in 1945 (ref CS258/12873).
These might include further personal details. Hard to say though really. These documents would need to be looked at in Edinburgh or can be ordered as photocopies from NAS (this can be an expensive way of doing it as you are paying xpennies per page copied by NAS staff).
Monica
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Cheers for that Monica,i never really understood that webb page,lots of things to look through if they are available,we have a special collections in our university,may take a trip in there one day.
I have sent a message to my cousin to see if he thinks we should send for these divorce papers.
I looked up the name Ethel seems that its an English name Edna could also be English /Sottish,in Gealic spelling Eithne,,( a bit of useless info there)
Thank you very much for your help and patience :)
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It is a pleasure :) Just frustrated for you that we can't find that big piece on Ethel's birth at present due to online restrictions.
Monica
PS: If you are interested in first name variants and origin etc., this is one of my favourite sites here www.whatsinaname.net/
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Maybe one day,if it happens i will certainly let you know and the other RC that helped me along.
Thank you again,i will keep looking in on the chats,think i will miss it now.
Happy week-end..... :)
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Shelly,
You mentioned that David and Rachel fostered/adopted more children other than your father and aunt.
Do you know anything of their origins? i.e. did they keep their original first name and were they born in Scotland? I know you have mentioned one wee boy who died young but who was born in Leeds.
You also mention that the couple were religious. Could these children have been fostered through their church?
Looby :)
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HI,
yes i think the church played a big part in all the illigitimate children,BUT.i do not know where to start! I contacted the Tayport Presbyterian (not sure about spelling)church the minister very helpful
he could not find Ethel in the church records from 1914/16..I think Monica hit the nail on the head when she wondered if Ethel really knew her birth date and place of birth.
David/Rachel did get the wee boy from Leeds do not know how could have been his mother (described as a post mistress)was sent away to have the child in Scotland, then the church got involved..My dads mum came over 100miles to give birth to him,this really puzzles me where on earth did she leave him when she went back home,my dad would have been 100 in Nov this year so maybe i will find out then..
My Mums side is all very neat and parceled ,not as exciting as my dads side..
Thanks a lot. :)
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Not that it helps with records and finding them at the moment, but the family were Presbyterian rather than Roman Catholic?
Monica
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100% Monica,
they never left that legacy to his family though,none of us are ott. :)
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Although adoption laws came in to effect in 1930 in Scotland, from what I have read, it wasn't really until after the second world war that things really firmed up in this area (WW2 brought its own headaches regarding the care of babies and children unfortunately).
It is such an inpenetrable area to research as you very unlikely to find any proof of anything really. Records being closed off and unaccessable, or "lost" ::) and really honestly lost or destroyed. Women were sent off all round the country to have their babies. There were all kinds of charitable or otherwise groups, religeous organisations and private facilities for these women and their babies. Not just babies, as older children were also needing care. MASSIVE and harrowing subject this which has so many layers.
I think your approach is the most likely to result in success as you have found with your father's details.
Monica
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Do you think i should stick in there try all the avenues i can? when nov. 14th comes along i am praying that there is more info on where he was placed to be given away.hopefully i will see that,
getting a bit long in the tooth!!!
Cheers Monica ,you come over as very experienced which is very good for me,i love the searching but limited in my grey matter where to go half the time.
:)
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My experience and nearly everyone else here on RC comes from doing what you are doing now...learning as you go!
Regarding keeping going, absolutely! Every year new sources come online or are made available. Also, I have seen old posts here on RC coming alive again because someone years later has made a connection to a post or simply been able to add some new info. Stay hopeful and positive :)
Monica
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Cheers Monica,
you are an inspiration,i will keep plodding on,every one i have met on RC ,are soooo helpful,i am staying with it.hopefully we will chat again.
:)
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Hello Monica,
i was thinking about Thomas Connelly,when David married Rachel he changed the boys name to Connelly(in 1898 Ireland) maybe not in writting) like my dads name not done through legal procedures(?)..i looked up the WW1 deaths could not find Thomas James Magee....
i did find Thomas Connelly but found him in Ypres ..but cannot get his parents names.
i remember my dad saying his brother died in the first world war by gas...
Thomas James Magee..baptism/birth..17/1/1896..Achadowey..co,Derry..(rootsireland.ie)
thanks.. :)
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Shelley, I was reading this today http://britishgenes.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/scottish-soldiers-wills-to-go-online-in.html and wondering whether we could pick up on Thomas this way, via a will entry?
NRS/NAS http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/ have just three entries with not enough detail to make anything really, except the one that we think now is the Thomas from Newton Mearns who died end of July 1917:
Will of 242297 Private Thomas Connelly, 5th Bn., Gordon Highlanders, Cause of death: Killed in action, Belgium, Theatre: France and Flanders, 31 Jul 1917 (our Newton Mearns Thomas I think).
Will of S/10564 or 10564 Private Thomas Connelly, 2nd Bn., Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, Cause of death: Killed in action, France, Theatre: France and Flanders, 07 Mar 1917
Will of 20868 Private Thomas Connelly, 2nd Bn., Royal Dublin Fusiliers, formerly 3063 Scottish Rifles, Cause of death: Killed in action, Gouzeancourt, France, Theatre: France and Flanders, 21 Mar 1918
Monica
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Hello again Monica,
i cannot remember what site i looked up to get this info on Thomas i probably have got it wrong,when i found the name (a few years ago now} i thought "yes" must be him with the info my dad had given me,but now i realise without seeing his parents names i really have no proof.What i know for sure is his birth date and birth place..so maybe i will have to dig deeper.
I have written to Edingburgh to see if they can release any info on the death cert.,of the Thomas i have found..Poor Ethel on the back burner for a wee while.
Cheers Monica.
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Ethel is there for another day, we won't forget her ;)
Regarding Thomas, daft question from me. From what your father said about Thomas, he definitely died in active combat abroad during WW1 rather than got injured and then either came home to die in the UK or died some years later from the effects of the war?
I wish we could find some service papers that could help with his regiment and numbers etc. There are some deaths showing for a T Connolly (I am searching as Con*ly to try to pick up on spelling variations) where no age is included. This can mean that there is missing personal information including next of kin details recorded. Sometimes you can find that information from other sources thought (as we did with the details for the Thomas from Newton Mearns). I have been looking at this site that I mentioned earlier www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx
Monica
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Monica,i am looking up the Ancestery site for ww1 soldiers who died in action,strangely i have came upon a Thomas (born in dundee) only one in the 3 i have looked at were born in Ireland,
Shankill Belfast,(this is where Davids mother was born),the one in Dundee interesting David&co were just outside Dundee at some point in there life,this Thomas died 11/11/1914,a few days before my dad was born and taken in by David/Rachel..gosh this is a real puzzle,i will have to try and find more info., on these two..the other one i found was born Glasgow maybe wanted people to think that, as they were there in 1902/3/4/5/6...so many little fibs told inccredible...
The other thing i am sure of is that Thomas died by a Gas attack in ww1...
Oh dear here we go again,i also remember him saying that another brother died in Dundee logging accident i cannot remember the name or when,better to leave that one alone+another one..c u Monica....
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Hi Monica,
i have found my T.Connelly...he died in Fife at 18yrs old..he was listed as a Service Return...seems like he died from the affects of some kind of gas one year after he returned from the war..my husband and i are going to see if we can find his grave,with the hope it is not a paupers grave..I am joyful that i have found this info but feel so sad for his young life taken and for David and Rachel..
He died on the 24/5/1914..D Connelly (father) present..Blimey..SO SAD.
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Oh Shelly, I have been away all day (horrible family news).
It is all so sad. Wars are all sad and bad. But, you have found him. You talk about him, you have searched for him and you care. With all your efforts, you have found him.
This is what life is about :) I am proud of you!
Monica
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Hi shelly ,
I am pleased that you managed to find young Thomas and as Monica says you have remembered him and we are discussing him . All very poignant this WW1 100 anniversary year,
Have you looked at this website - http://scottishwargraves.phpbbweb.com/scottishwargraves-forum-9.html
If you know where in Fife Thomas died he could be listed.
Looby :)
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Hi Monica,
many thanks for your kind words.My husband thinks that Thomas enlisted in the army but was turned down due to being unfit,he died of T.B..before the war started..
Sorry if you have had bad news,take care,hope to speak again...
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Looby,
thank you also for your kind words and input,i am going to look up the link you sent me,see if i can find a headstone..we live about 14 miles from the place he died..
Thank you again,i will let you both know if i find anything..
Speak again soon. :)
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Shelly, what you say about his death in 1914, before the war, and TB makes sense now :-\ Did he die at home or in a hospital? The address where the death took place will show on the certificate.
The description given here of Dunbog http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbog makes a lot of sense with David and Rachel's work:
The parish is of entirely rural character, with no actual village - only a collection of farm houses.
Monica
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Shelly, I found this document here 'Tracing your family in Fife' which I thought you might enjoy having a read through www.docstoc.com/docs/17697191/Tracing-Your-Family-History
There looks to be a cemetery in Dunbog. I think it is administered by Fife Council, Cemeteries Department, County Buildings, St Catherine Street, Cupar, KY15 4TA. Tel. 01334 659336. Fax 01334 412896
Not to say that this is where he was buried, but maybe a place to start asking questions?
Monica
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Hi there Monica,
on Thomas"s death certificate it states he died in Dunbog,the other name i cant make out,looks like Colleirrie,but i cant find that name,thought it could have been Collessie but not sure.
Monica can i ask you how to use these GROS numbers and what i can find from them,i am now looking for Ethel in the Dunbog area see what i can find out.
In the 1915 Valuation Roll they were still in the Dunbog area,in the 1920 VR..cannot find them,opened up the David C..that came up ,none of them are him..Hope all is well. :)
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Sorry Monica here i am again,i just phoned Fife Council in Cupar,to be told they do not keep records of burials ,i would just have to go and search the cemetery,,she did say if i get stuck to give her a ring back.{?}.. :)
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Hi Shelly
That is OK, you like challenges ;)
Dunbog Graveyard is maintained by Fife Council Bereavement Services, but interments no longer take place there. Records of burials are likely to be sketchy, if available at all
www.fife.gov.uk/atoz/index.cfm?fuseaction=facility.display&facid=D08B238F-0683-4619-85C2476EC9D50F6B
The tel number quoted there, not sure it is for the cemetery or for the Fife Council Bereavement Services?
Monica
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on Thomas"s death certificate it states he died in Dunbog,the other name i cant make out,looks like Colleirrie,but i cant find that name,thought it could have been Collessie but not sure.
possibly Collairnie (Dunbog parish)
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Thank you scotmum :)
Shelly, lots of photos here of Collairnie here http://www.geograph.org.uk/search.php?i=48289275
Lots of farming land there.
Monica
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Thank you very much for that link...brilliant..i think these cottages could be 100years old +maybe this is where my Thomas died...
My husband and i going to take a trip there to see what we can see..(let you know}.Cheers Monica very much appreciated.. :)HAPPY EASTER....
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Happy Easter, Shelly :)
Monica
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Hi Monica,
just to let you know that we visited the Dunbog cemetery nothing there,lovely little place though,also got a message from the Fife Council asking for the name and date my uncle died and they would look it up,that was 4weeks ago ,no answer yet.
I am wondering if you can help me again? i found my my grandads name in the 1920 valuation roll his name was not 100% correct but the place seems to be what he was used to,i emailed the Perth & Kinross archives for more info., who was in the house with him at that time,they can not give me any info., although Dundee and Renfrew councils did give me info on the same thing?i have a ref,number is there anywhere i can look this up myself on the internet?
Sorry Monica ,truly grateful for your help. :)
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Good to see you are working through still. Knew you would ;)
For this period that you are in, things get trickier to find online. Not sure what additional details you have been provided with by Dundee and Renfrew councils (but great that you have this).
Regarding the 1920 valuation roll, this is a brief description here of what is to be found there www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&2080 Normally only heads of households were included on the valuation rolls.
Maybe what you need to check is the electoral rolls. Like the valuation roll, these can only be searched by address, not name. Given what they are, they only apply for people who were eligible to vote.
None of these type of records are equivalent to a census unfortunately :-\ Also, as important, they can't be searched/viewed online and would have to be searched at a main research library in the area.
Monica :)
PS: Maybe follow up with Fife Council for a response. Likely a prompt may help ::)