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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dunbartonshire => Topic started by: Rayjamgor on Saturday 05 April 14 09:18 BST (UK)
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on his marriage cert to Agnes Miller in 1872 his father Joseph is deceased ad mother Catherine (Parker)alive . I can find no trace of a marriage of death certs for either of them. So far ive made contact with my granda James Dunlop Taylors brother Alexander Dunlop Taylors family and they have the same problem . Any ideas to go further back? thanks Ray .
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Good morning Ray,
Have you found William on the 1851 or 61 Census with his parents?
Looby :)
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Hi all ,
There is a Catherine Parker aged 20 in Kirkintilloch on the 1851 Census.
http://freecen.rootsweb.com/
ev
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Morning loobyloo , the first i can track William is his marriage in 1872 to Agnes Miller then the census in 1881 , deserted family in 1891 and back in 1901 and dies in 1903 . Agnes seems a stumbling block too . All other lines in family go back the extra generation apart from William and Agnes . Cant find a birth for him either on SP or for Agnes. tried Family search too and ancestry and drawn a blank . hit the brick wall as they say and i build walls for a living ;D
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Like Ev I had found a Catherine Parker on the 1851 at Kirkintilloch.
I cannot see a likely candidate for Joseph Taylor in the area :-\
There is a marriage of a Catherine Parker to an Angus Carrie at Kirkintilloch on 10th Oct 1856.
I wonder if Catherine had William outside of marriage or was widowed young.
This couple https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTR5-3Y4 might be worth looking at on the 1861.
Looby :)
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i got the marriage cert of angus carrie and catherine parker 29/09/1856 and shes aged 27 and noted as a spinster . So its possible she had william 6 years before out of wedlock as no marriage to joseph . thanks again for your help ev and loobyloo :)
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Ray,
I've been trying to find the couple on the 1861 Census, hoping to find William with them but so far no joy.
I think the spelling of Carrie may have many variations ::) ??? - Kerry, Cairy, Carey, Carry etc.
Looby :)
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Hi everyone,
There's a wee boy on the 1851 census called William Taylor age 1 listed as lodger living in Lanarkshire - the Catherine Parker Ev and Looby found was born in Lanarkshire. The family he's with is called 'Ker' living at 50 Braxfield Row.
Jen
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Ray,
How sure are you that William was born in 1850 Kirkintilloch Dunbartonshire?
Found this family on 1851 Census living at 10 Well Street, Calton Glasgow
Taylor John Head 31 Hand Loom Weaver Cotton born Paisley, Renfrewshire
Taylor Caterine Wife 32 Steam Loom Weaver Cotton "
Taylor Mary Dau 15 Peacer born Calton, Glasgow
Taylor James Son 9 Scholar "
Taylor William Son 2 "
The family have 4 adult lodgers and a child John Duffie aged 2 noted as an adopted son but it's not clear if he is the adopted child of the Taylors or one of the lodgers.
Also living a stone's throw down the street are this family
21 Well Street. Calton, Glasgow
Miller George Head 30 Cork Cutter born Paisley, Renfrewshire
Miller Hellen Wife 28 Semstress born Glasgow
Miller Margaret Dau 6 "
Miller Agness Dau 2mths "
Miller Hellen Dau 2 "
This family have a visitor an Alexander Christie aged 35 a Cork Cutter living with them.
Could this be the William Taylor and Agnes Miller who marry in 1872?
Looby :)
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Hi looby :) thats the address for agnes miller /taylor when she got married and checked it out on ancestry and its giving them names for her parents too :) yeah the 1901 SP census shows williams birth as kirkintilloch ,ancestry shows it too in 1881.
agnes father was george and mother helen young so thanks for that , brigtonians :) my own mother was married there :)
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It's strange and maybe a little too convenient that a William Taylor of approx the correct age with a mother called Catherine is living just down the street from the Millers in 1851 :-\
Have you found the William Taylor who married Agnes on the 1871 Census? You will have his occupation from his marriage cert which will be a big help in identifying him.
Also what did the couple call their children and in what order were they born? As you will probably know childrens names can sometimes (but not always) give clues.
You mention that William deserted his family circa 1891 but returned by 1901. Why do you say that? If he is missing from the Census of 1891 with his wife he could be working away from home/ visiting family/friends/ in hospital or in jail ;D. Or do you know that he did leave them?
Looby :)
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I've just had a look at the 1881 census and there are multiple William Taylors living with a wife called Agnes in Glasgow alone. Like Looby I'd like to know the occupation listed on the marriage cert and also his address at the time of marriage. Do you have the birth certificates of any of the children showing with the 'born in Kirkintilloch' William on the 1881 census?
Jen
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Sorry if we're firing a lot of questions at you Ray ::) ;D
Just trying to get more info to try and help solve your mystery.
Incidentially I'm not so sure now about the Catherine Parker/Angus Carrie couple until we investigate William further, as I'm having no joy finding a Kirkintilloch born boy on 1851 and 1861. Not to say he's not there, but he's hiding well!
Looby
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Still recovering from last night ;D here goes . ive got william in 1901 ,head of house hold 51, agnes 50 , alexander 14 and james 12 . ,
in 1891 agnes is head of household aged 40 with william 17 , joseph (miller) 15 ( tracked him via rootschat Canada) alexander (dunlop) got his family in Shotts, 3 and my granda james ( dunlop) 1. it states agnes is "deserted", aint got a clue what that means or where he was.( joe ,george and john had middle name Miller )
on the 1881 census on ancestry i have william 29 , agnes 30 william 7 , joseph 6 ,george m 4 john m 1 and im sure ive got a helen on a cert between john and alexander . always wondered why such big gap between joe and alex.
on the marriage in 1872 there addresses were 21 well st glasgow , and my granda s birth certifiicate william is down as tailor,journeyman( my mum used to say Taylor by name Tailor by trade ) and they stayed in the gorbals/hutcheston area , 50 Crown st and then Orchard st .
this has sure sobered me up on this fine sunday morn and thanks again , raymie ;)
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Hi again Ray,
Do you know where the middle name Dunlop comes from that Alexander and James had?
I think to establish William's ancestry you need to find him on the 1871 Census prior to his marriage. If he married in Bridgton in 1872 there's a good chance he was in Glasgow working the year before.
I take it that on the 1901 Census and the 1881 he has given his place of birth as Kirkintilloch, Dunbartonshire?
I am still pondering the William Taylor who is living down the road in 1851 from the Millers :-\
Looby
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....and im sure ive got a helen on a cert between john and alexander .
Maybe this Helen here, born after the 1881 census https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT64-FF8
Monica :)
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William's occupation is quite specific as tailor (stands out from general labourer etc.). From 1881:
William Taylor 29 tailor b. Kirkintilloch
Agnes Taylor 30
William Taylor 7
Joseph Taylor 6
George M Taylor 4
John M Taylor 1
Address: 49 Richard St, Glasgow Anderston
And then in 1891:
Agnes Taylor 40 deserted (likely not too long ago given the age of youngest)
William Taylor 17 Bookbinder
Joseph Taylor 15 Mason (Apprentice)
Alexander Taylor 3
James Taylor 1
Address: 50 Crown St, Glasgow Govan/Gorbals
Rayjamgor, given that Agnes shows as 'deserted' in 1891, have you considered she may have claimed poor relief in William's absence? Glasgow records are some of the best in this area of poor relief applications, but they require a personal look up at the Mitchell Library in Glasgow.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
This William Taylor has me stumped - I just can't see him before 1872.
I'm tending to the idea that he wasn't born in Kirkintilloch but might have thought he was, I also don't think Taylor was his name. His mother's maiden name is recorded as Parker - but I'm not sure about that one either.
Ray- Do any of the family have the middle name Robertson by any chance?
Looby :)
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Given we now have his trade as a tailor, from 1881 with Agnes (guess he showed as this also on his marriage reg.?). This looks like him in 1871:
John W Cummings 30
Alexandrina Cummings 30
John Cummings 9
Alexander Cummings 7
Elizabeth Cummings 5
Robert Cummings 2
William Taylor 19 tailor boarder b. Kirkintilloch Stirlingshire [sic]
Address: 28 Brandon St, Glasgow High Church
Both John and Alexandrina shows as born in Glasgow, so no obvious connection to him boarding there...other than just boarding there!
Monica
PS: Looby, he is a pain in the years before, I agree :-\
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Well done Monica !
Now to find him in 1861 ;D
Added- think my Robertson request is now obsolete.
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William I think may have been born after the 1851 census (30 March)?
1871 - 19 year old
1881 - 29 year old
1891 - AWOL
1901 - can't easily see so far...
Looby, don't know if we will find him in 1851. Maybe from the earlies, the 1861 is the only one outstanding.
Monica
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Looks like you could be right about the 1851 Census.
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I think the Catherine Parker that both you and Ev have mentioned before in 1851 boarding in Kirkintilloch is likely relevant:
Mary Graham, 22, unmarried, Cliper b. Glasgow
Catherine Young, daughter 5months b. Kirkintillock
Elizabeth Horn, Lodger, 22 seamstress, b. Denny Stirlingshire
Margaret Horn, Lodger, 9, servant, b. Falkirk Stirlingshire
Catherine Parker, lodger, 20, weaver, unmarried, b. Glasgow
Address: High Street, Kirkintilloch
What if Catherine was there to have her baby?
Creative imaginations, please apply here ;D
Monica
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I'm being very creative here???
I found a baby William Robertson a pauper aged 1 lodging with a family called Smith on the 1851 at Kirkintilloch. He was born in Glasgow. I think he is still with the family aged 11 in 1861.
I wondered if this was our boy- Then being really inventive I found a Catherine Robertson in Glasgow had married a James Parker!! You can see where this is going can't you....
The award to the best fantasy goes to ....Looby :-[
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;D Looby, I don't think you are far from where it may be! You get my gold star ;)
Might need to trace further on Catherine Parker...what did she do after boarding at Kirkintilloch in 1851.
I could only see some children post 1855 to late 1860s, with mother showing as Catherine Parker as follows:
William Mclachlan and Catherine Parker
Matthew Currie and Catherine Parker...she shows 1861 as born in France c. 1835
Duncan Mckellar (also a Daniel, different couple?) and Catherine Parker...think this Catherine born c. 1830 in Greenock going by 1861 entry.
Couldn't see any children, Looby, for the family your found from a marriage, headed up by an Angus Carrie (unless he became Matthew Currie!).
Monica
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I think Matthew Currie and Angus Carrie are 2 different people.
Decided to splash out and use some of my SP credits on the marriage of Catherine Parker and Angus Carrie ( my curiosity was killing me :P)
So Married at Kirkintilloch Manse on 10th October 1856-
Angus Carrie age 27 and a half - residence Kirkintilloch bachelor Weaver
Catherine Parker age 27 - residence Kirkintilloch spinster Weaver
Angus Carrie's parents - Robert Carrie labourer (decd) and Mary m.s. Toch (decd)
Catherine Parker's parents - William Parker weaver (decd) and Agnes m.s. Nancy Ferguson (decd)
Witness to the marriage - John Clark and Mary McCallum - they had to witness the marks X made by the happy couple .
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTT6-V56 a marriage which could be Catherine's parents!
Looby
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I like the fact that the Catherine, wife of Angus is a weaver, linking back potentially to that 1851 entry. Just struggling to find them after that really...
Monica
PS: also like that this Catherine's father is called William ;)
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I can't find them after marriage either ???
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If parents William Parker and Agnes Ferguson died young...I can only see two entries for children:
Janet 1824 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FM98-VQJ
Agnes 1832 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FMSK-686
There is an 1841 census entry on FreeCen:
Catherine Parker aged 10, a female servant, at 118 High Street, Glasgow College.
Monica
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I Wonder- there is an Angus Carey aged 39 born Midlotian in Bridgeton, Glasgow and also a Catherine Carey aged 38 born Lanarkshire in Bridgeton Glasgow on the 1871 Census. I found them on Family Search and I don't know if they are in the same household. But surely it must be the Kirkintilloch couple :-\
Looby :)
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Didn't think to jump censuses :P From 1871:
Angus Carey 39 labourer, b. Musselburgh, Midlothian
Catherine Carey 38 Cotton Winder b. Burnside, Lanarkshire
John Carey 18 potter b, Kirkintolloch, dumbartonsh
Address: 63 Soho St, Glasgow Bridgeton
Monica
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Everyone seems to be missing on the 1861 Census ??? ::)
What do you think? Is this William Taylor's mother with her husband? And is son John actually Angus Carrie/Carey's son. Angus and Catherine married 1857. If John is 18 he must have been born circa 1852/3.
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Indeed with the John Carey showing. Looks promising doesn't it, Looby, for the Catherine Parker's marriage you found ;)
Monica
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They go AWOL again for 1881, nor can I see easily Scottish deaths for Angus or Catherine post 1871 :-\
Monica
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Hi everyone,
William and Agnes on the 1901 census living Errol Street Govan.
William 51 birth place Kirkintilloch - now showing as a engineer's labourer
Agnes 50
Alexander 13
James 12
Jen
Edit - been looking at Joseph Taylors (thankfully a lot less of them than Williams). The only one I can put in Kirkintilloch is a weaver born Kilsyth Stirlingshire- briefly,
41 in Kilsyth with first wife and children,
51 back with parents no wife but with children
61 in Kirkintilloch second wife Maryann Griffin (they marry 1853) no children showing but births showing at LDS
71 in Kirkintilloch with Maryann and son William age 8 (way too young to be the correct William)
Joseph not showing post 71..
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Hi Jen, finding a suitable Joseph Snr. is tricky isn't it :-\
Just adding more census info as we go...
Think I found Angus and C/Katherine in 1891. Other than they both seem to have lost 10 years of age, a good fit:
Angus Cary 50 gen. lab., b. Musselburgh
Katherine Cary 50 Flower Pot Finisher, b. Glasgow
Address: 15 William St, Glasgow Camlachie
Monica
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Hi folks,
Could this be Angus on the 1851 Census?
As transcribed on Freecen-
Hillhead, Kirkintilloch.
Angus Craig Unmarried Lodger 20 Hand Loom Weaver born Midlothian, Musselburgh
How many Musselburgh Anguses would be in Kirkintilloch in 1850s??
Still eluding me on 1861. ::)
And bearing in mind all the unreliable ages - look at this birth - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYBN-WHX
I cannot find any trace of this on SP.
Looby :)
Added - Angus Craig is lodging with a family called Niven
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Looby, who do you think is John Vickars b. 1855 that you found?
Monica
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I was looking for John Carey - aged 18 therefore approx. 1853 birth at Kirkintilloch Dunbartonshire.
Me at my usual - going off on a tangent - round all the houses , trying to get something to link the Careys and William Taylor. And bearing in mind the irregularity of the ages I thought John could be a bit younger than recorded.
When I found what appears to be an illegitimate birth of a John with mother Catherine I tried finding her on 1851. Drew a blank. Couldn't find likely candidates for them on 1861 either!
Plus can't find the birth on Scotlands People.
Maybe Familysearch have made a mistake.
Looby :)
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We like going off tangent when the going gets tough ;)
They seem to pop in an out of records don't they :-\ I thought they had left Scotland, but having likely found them in Scotland in 1891 seems likely they would head off at the age of c. 60 (contrary to their 50 in 1891!).
But then again, can't easily see anything on deaths for Catherine so far.
Monica
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Back to the chappie and the heart of all this - William Taylor
Ray please excuse us for all this toing and froing.
But bearing in mind Monica's great find placing William Taylor in Glasgow aged 19 on the 1871 with a birth place of Kirkintilloch, Stirlingshire, I wondered if the same county was recorded as his place of birth on 1861.
There is a William Taylor with a birth year of 1853 living at the East District of Cadder, Lanarkshire with a birthplace Stirlingshire. Kirkintilloch is approx. 3 miles east of the town of Cadder according to my G**ggle maps.
I don't have free access to that Census :'(. Maybe you should take a look Ray.
Looby :)
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Sorry meant to give this link - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VBWT-GZH
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Oh dear, sorry
Ignore that William Taylor of Cadder :'(. It's not him >:(
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Honestly dont know where to start , a massive thanks to looby ,monica (again you helped in my Gordon search too) and jen. This William guy is a mystery :)
I dont know where the Dunlop middle name came from as my Grandads brothers had Miller and the Helen had McMillan as middle name. I never heard my mother talk about the Taylor side apart from her gran Agnes , Williams wife as a wee woman with grey hair and always dressed in black.
apologies for not replying sooner .Raymie
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Ive gota family of Joseph Taylor on 1851 census living in Kilsyth just a stones throw away from Kirkintilloch and thats the registration district for williams birth in 1850 on Ancestry . on williams cert his father is a cotton weaver and this Joseph is a cotton weaver too , coincidence ? 1851 census joseph 38 is living with his parents and 3 sons 18,16 and 10 but no wife , then in 1861 joseph is 47 married to mary ann 33 and no kids but same house .
possible he fathered william as he was widowed and catherine then married angus carrie in 1856 ?
im getting creative too :D raymie
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Hi Raymie,
That's the Joseph mentioned a few posts back - you'll see he does have a son William to his second wife Maryann but he's not born till 1863 making him a bit too young. I didn't know Joseph Snr was a cotton weaver I thought the marriage certificate just said deceased. Not to say he didn't father little William but if he did where is William living in 1861?
Jen
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It's a bit of a mystery -
so far we have failed to find William on the 1861 and Catherine (Parker) Carrie/Carey and Angus Carrie/Carey plus their son John Carey .
Two things to mention -
William might not be on the 1861 as Taylor. He might not always have used that name . I've came across many cases where surnames are changed as the person gets older. He could be under Parker.
John Carey aged 18 on the 1871 Census is born (if the age recorded is correct) a few years before Catherine and Angus marry. He could be offspring of Angus and not Catherine.
And sadly I have to point out that we still have nothing to connect the above Catherine Parker to William Taylor other than her name and the fact she was in Kirkintilloch in the 1850s. The strong likelihood is that she is his mother but I just wish we could find them all together in 61 to wrap it all up! ;D
Looby
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found Catherine Parker on the 1851 census at high st,dunbartonshire, enumeration district 6, registration district , back causeway born 1831, age 20, born glasgow , lodger and a weaver .
found it on Genes Reunited , i know it doesnt link her with william or Joseph but shes in the area ,3 other women in house and 0 year baby girl in house , pity it wasn t a boy lol
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Hi Ray,
Yes that Catherine in Kirkintilloch looks like she could be the right one. And she could be the one who marries Angus Carrie/Carey.
And Joseph Taylor at Kilsyth could well be the daddy of William.
As you say it's linking it all together that's the problem :-\
If only Catherine, Angus, William and John all turned up together on the 1861. Keep up the search!
Looby :)
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Went to the Mitchell today seeking Williams poor relief application. States he was born 1848 and not 1850 on Coal Road in Kirkintilloch, and parents Joseph and Cath parker. Its even in red ink saying that Kirkintilloch couldnt find a trace of him to help in Barnhills search for him. He had been in England working and his wife wouldnt take him back as they "couldnt agree" lol so he applied for relief , even being taken here by Central Police once . Anyhow the search goes on .