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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Suffolk => England => Suffolk Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Sunday 06 April 14 10:24 BST (UK)

Title: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Sunday 06 April 14 10:24 BST (UK)
Hi again, Everyone,
I'm trying to track down the elusive character Joseph HAZELL, who appears in the 1911 Census in Kirtling as a shepherd, born in Cowlinge in 1853.  He is married to an Alice, born in Stradishall in 1865.  They have had seven children, one of whom has subsequently died.
I can find them in the 1901 and in the 1891 Census, in Kirtling, no problem, but when I try to find a marriage for them (they say they have been married for 28 years in 1911, so a wedding in c.1883) in the area, I have so far drawn a blank.  Nor can I find a baptism c. 1852/3 for Joseph.  Nor can I find any trace of Joseph in Censuses prior to 1891.
I've seen a lovely labelled photo of him in a group of male drinkers outside a pub in Lidgate in 1909, so I know he's not a figment of the imagination!
If anyone is privy to the Cowlinge PR's or can cleverly come up with what looks like a good match for their wedding - presumably somewhere nearby in Suffolk, I would be eternally grateful…
Very best wishes,
Keith
Actually, in the 1911 Census Joseph and his family are living in Cowlinge - in the 1891 and 1901 they are indeed in Kirtling...
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: heywood on Sunday 06 April 14 10:34 BST (UK)
Hello,

1871   1712/47/ 9

Pound House, Cowlinge

Joseph Hazle 19 yrs son

Householders John and Elizabeth Braddy / Broddy

Regards
Heywood
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: KGarrad on Sunday 06 April 14 10:35 BST (UK)
The question on the 1911 census is: How many COMPLETE years of marriage?

So this looks very likely:

June qtr 1882
Risbridge district    vol 4a, page 673

Hazel, Joseph
Ransom, Alice




Cowlinge is a parish within thee Risbridge Registration District.
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: heywood on Sunday 06 April 14 10:36 BST (UK)
Elizabeth Hazle married John Braddy September 1854

1861 has your Joseph as Braddy
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: KGarrad on Sunday 06 April 14 10:44 BST (UK)
I started transcribing.

But, wrong family!!
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Sunday 06 April 14 10:56 BST (UK)
Goodness me!  I've just popped in the shower, and I come back to all these wonderful posts, Heywood and KGarrad…
That's an almost definite for the marriage, I would say.  But there seems to be some obscurity yet over his origins.  I'll have a close look at those Census entries now.  Thank you both so much…
Keith
ah, but the inference is, on your post, Heywood, that Joseph could have already been born to Elizabeth HAZLE before she tied the knot with John BRADDY, I see...
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: heywood on Sunday 06 April 14 11:00 BST (UK)
I don't think there is obscurity just various relationships  :)

1851
Elizabeth Hasel is 'daughter in law' - stepdaughter to Henry Prigg. His wife is transcribed as AMA. She is presumably Elizabeth's mother.
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Sunday 06 April 14 11:26 BST (UK)
I like the way Joseph's occupation, at the tender age of 9 in that 1861 Census is already given as "Labourer".  In the photo that I spoke about he has a most rugged, weatherbeaten look, presumably from years spent outside picking stones, scaring crows, and ultimately minding his sheep.
If I can get permission to show that photo, I'll post it on here, it's a really good evocation of how some menfolk looked just over 100 years ago in a rural community.
Keith
N.B. I wonder whether the original PR's for Cowlinge would have a more precise description of the family status with which both Joseph and his mother Elizabeth were brought into the world - I suppose it would depend on the attitude of the incumbent priest, and how he described them in the baptisms...
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Sunday 06 April 14 11:53 BST (UK)
…and I see in the 1841 Census for Cowlinge (the PRIGG family is spread over 2 pages at the very end), that Elizabeth's probable mother's name is given here as Amy, and that Elizabeth had no less than three other siblings, William the youngest at 5 years, Abraham, 8, and John, 9.  It is more than likely therefore, that their mother had been married, widowed, and than got hitched up with Henry Prigg in the mid 1830's
keith
and now, prompted by all the great help and assistance on this thread with subjects such as surname variation (in 1909, when he was a witness to his daughter Rose's wedding he made the mark of a cross), I have discovered him in the 1881 Census.  Rather a bizarre entry this, as he has himself as Joseph HAZLE, Head of Family, aged 29, with just a servant housekeeper in Allace (sic) Ransom aged 18, and an Emily aged 55, described as "mother, married".  Not quite sure where she fits into the equation.
They're at Pound House.  Cowlinge seems to be such a small community, I'm sure everyone knew everyone else's business, a pity we can't now ask those parishioners what exactly what was going on!
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: KGarrad on Sunday 06 April 14 12:59 BST (UK)
I have discovered him in the 1881 Census.  Rather a bizarre entry this, as he has himself as Joseph HAZLE, Head of Family, aged 29, with just a servant housekeeper in Allace (sic) Ransom aged 18, and an Emily aged 55, described as "mother, married".  Not quite sure where she fits into the equation.
They're at Pound House.  Cowlinge seems to be such a small community, I'm sure everyone knew everyone else's business, a pity we can't now ask those parishioners what exactly what was going on!

Emily is Emily Ransom - obviously Alice's mother!
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Sunday 06 April 14 13:17 BST (UK)
KGarrad,
Of course she is, one less puzzling piece of the jigsaw!  I wonder what the dynamics of this particular household were in 1881...
Keith
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: heywood on Sunday 06 April 14 14:11 BST (UK)
That's the same address as 1871 - the Braddy household
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: KGarrad on Sunday 06 April 14 16:35 BST (UK)
KGarrad,
Of course she is, one less puzzling piece of the jigsaw!  I wonder what the dynamics of this particular household were in 1881...
Keith

In light of later developments (i.e. they married!) perhaps chaperone?! ;D ;D
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: annes on Monday 07 April 14 13:32 BST (UK)
Taken from Cowlinge parish register.

John Braddy - 25 - bachelor - labourer
Elizabeth Hazle - 24 - spinster - servant
Both of this parish
Married 28th August 1854
Both signed X
Fathers: James Braddy labourer, William Hazle labourer
In presence of: Jeremiah Braddy (X) and Mary Ann Chapman (X)

I checked baptisms at cowlinge 1852 to 1864 but couldn't see Joseph Hazle/Braddy or any other children of this couple.
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: annes on Monday 07 April 14 13:34 BST (UK)
Taken from Cowlinge parish register.

Joseph Hazel - 31 - bachelor - labourer of Cowlinge
Alice Ransom - 18 - spinster - of Cowlinge
Married 6th May 1882
He signed X, she signed her name
Fathers: none given for Joseph, and George Ransom labourer
In presence of James Braddy (X) and Betsy Braddy (X)
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Monday 07 April 14 13:44 BST (UK)
Heywood and KGarrad,
Sorry! I meant to acknowledge your further input in to this thread, with wry humour to the fore…
And Annes, thanks so much for transcribing the whole of that marriage entry for 1854 (and now this moment I see that you've given me Joseph's 1882 marriage too).  So more important details, that Elizabeth HAZLE's father was a William, and that Alice RANSOM's father was a George…
Is there perhaps a baptism entry for Joseph HAZLE for about 1852, giving his mother as Elizabeth, but 
the term "baseborn", or some other disapproving label used…
This is all taking shape very nicely thanks to all this extra help.
Regards, Keith
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: annes on Monday 07 April 14 13:50 BST (UK)
Hi Keith, I looked for Joseph's baptism under both names, no entry for a baseborn child of Elizabeth Hazle that I could see  :-\.
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Monday 07 April 14 13:57 BST (UK)
Annes,
Now, that's very interesting - thanks so much for looking that up for me too!
keith
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Tuesday 15 April 14 18:13 BST (UK)
Hi again, Everyone,
Have been away for a really pleasant 2-day break in Brighton, though I could not help chewing over the contents of this thread in spare moments.  So, since I arrived back I've discovered the March quarter 1838 marriage between Henry PRIGG and Amy HAZLE for the Risbridge district volume 12 page 449, which I may very well send off for, as this would get me another generation backwards in this rather fragmented HAZELL family tree…
So can I ask, at the peril of going to the well too often, is this marriage in the Cowlinge PR's, and is there also a burial for a William HAZLE, Amy's first husband presumably some time between perhaps 1836 and 1838.  Or even an earlier marriage between this Amy and William HAZLE some time before 1831, when Elizabeth HAZLE was born - Annes, or anyone else with a little more time and patience to spare on me…!
Very many thanks, Keith
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: annes on Saturday 19 April 14 15:19 BST (UK)
Taken from Cowlinge parish register

Henry Prigg - full age - widower - labourer
Amy Hazle - full age - widow - (says labourer?)
3rd February 1838
Both of this parish
Fathers: Henry Prigg labourer, John Turner labourer
In presence of John Bye and Elizabeth Bye (both signed)

John Bye and Elizabeth Claydon married in Cowlinge on 1st March 1833
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: annes on Saturday 19 April 14 15:26 BST (UK)
I searched the Cowlinge registers for a marriage for William Hazle and Amy (Turner) to no avail, also no sign of a burial for William Hazle at Cowlinge. 

A few other bits of information found during my search for the above.  Slight tangents but may be of interest.

I was looking for a possible marriage for John Turner but couldn't see one of those either  ::) , I did see a couple of baptisms: Mary d/o John and Rebecca Turner bn 25/1 bap 14/4/1805 and William s/o John and Rebecca Turner bn 11th October, bap 20th Sept 1807 (this is how it's written in register but should probably be transposed?).  I couldn't see a baptism for an Amy Turner but some of the fiche before these dates looked almost blank, the writing was so faded away.

An Elizabeth d/o Roger and Elizabeth Hazle (late Langley) born 15th March baptised 17th March 1792 at Cowlinge.

Banns for Henry Prigg (sm) and Elizabeth Osborn (sp) 30th Sept, 7th and 10th October 1787
Married 17th October 1787.

Is it worth starting a new thread asking for burial of William Hazle which might give a clue to where William and Amy were living?  Their marriage might be in the same parish.

Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Saturday 19 April 14 22:25 BST (UK)
Annes,
Thank you so much for coming back with all this extra research on this quite difficult line of enquiry.  So Amy's maiden name was TURNER, and presumably married a William HAZLE somewhere in the area, but where?  And it could very well be a good idea of yours to start another thread on the Suffolk board asking whether anyone can spot this marriage circa 1830 nearby.
Interesting too that the HAZLE surname crops up in Langley in 1792.
Just off the top of my head now (scribbled the entry down on a scrap of paper a few days ago) the only birth registration I could find anywhere in the country (I think) for the right sort of time was a September quarter 1851 birth in St Pancras London for a Joseph James HAZLE.
Quite tempted to send away for that certificate, imagining that Elizabeth HAZLE might have gone to London looking for work, had a child there, and then returned to Cowlinge to meet and marry John BRADDY - probably all in the realms of fantasy, however…
Even the earlier generations are looking tricky too!  Many thanks again for all your help with trying to unravel the mystery of the HAZLE family line.
Keith
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: Annette7 on Sunday 20 April 14 01:01 BST (UK)
I've found a marriage that sounds like William Hazell to an Amy BUT her surname not Turner.

William Hazell of Cowlinge married Amy Gout 29/4/1828 Wickhambrook.

Now I note on 1851 census that Amy's birthplace is given as Wickhambrook. 

Baptism for Amy:

Amy Gaut bp.11/5/1806 Wickhambrook, dau. of Rachel - note 'Bb, Sp.' which I am assuming refers to Baseborn and Spinster.

Could be that Amy knew her father was named John Turner so gave his name as her father when she married Henry Prigg.   

Annette

Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Sunday 20 April 14 09:33 BST (UK)
Annette,
Thanks so much for taking the trouble to turn this very real possibility/probability for Amy's true origins, and that vital 1828 marriage.  This illegitimacy thing seems to be running through the family in this small area of 19thC rural Suffolk.  I think I need to pay a visit to the Record Office at Bury St Edmunds to see whether there are any of those bastardy orders/bonds or whatever they were called, where the father's name was recorded and he was made to contribute to the upkeep of the child.
Fascinating stuff…
Keith
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: Keith Sherwood on Thursday 24 April 14 14:06 BST (UK)
It's a bit big (maybe someone can help me with it, figures a bit elongated), but here is the promised photo…
Keith…p.s. Does anyone else recognise any of their own ancestors here…?

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t31.0-8/10007334_10154079368820220_5496969141880239023_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Whereabouts of Joseph HAZELL pre-1891
Post by: byker on Tuesday 06 June 17 20:37 BST (UK)
Taken from Cowlinge parish register

Henry Prigg - full age - widower - labourer
Amy Hazle - full age - widow - (says labourer?)
3rd February 1838
Both of this parish
Fathers: Henry Prigg labourer, John Turner labourer
In presence of John Bye and Elizabeth Bye (both signed)

John Bye and Elizabeth Claydon married in Cowlinge on 1st March 1833

Interesting. John Bye and Elizabeth Claydon, are my 3 x gt grandparents.

Elizabeth Bye's parents were, John Claydon and Elizabeth Prigg, b. 1788. She was the sister of the Henry Prigg, b. 1809, who married Amy.

In my notes I have Amy as Amy Haxie nee Gault, born abt 1806, Wickhambrook, Suffolk. Back to the drawing board.

Denise