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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: fred2derf on Monday 07 April 14 12:01 BST (UK)
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Another series of puzzles from one of my direct lines.
1892 DEATHS in the District of Paisley in the County of Renfrew
No. 536
Isabella RAMSAY Widow of
1st John Blackley Mason Journeyman
2nd Francis Ramsay Farmer
1892 May Sixteenth 12 h. noon 23 Broomlands Paisley F 91 years
Thomas McGuire Farmer (dec.) Mary McGuire M.S. Ellist (dec.)
Senile decay as Certified by John Holms M.D.
Catherine McNaughton Daughter (Present)
1892 May 17th at Paisley Hugh Allison Registrar
1861
Civil Parish: Paisley High Church
County: Renfrew
Address: 57 Broomlands Street
Isabella Blackley Head 56 Ireland
Mary dau 26 Mill worker Ireland
Isabella dau 25 Mill worker Ireland
Sarah dau 23 Mill worker Ireland
Catherine dau 21 Mill worker Ireland
Ann dau 15 Mill worker Paisley
David BECKETT & Ann RAMSAY
Marriage: 31 Dec 1866 High Church Paisley, Renfrew
Jane Beckett
Birth Date: 4 Aug 1866 High Church Paisley, Renfrew
David Beckett & Ann Blackley
James Beckett ?
Sarah Beckett
Birth Date: 2 Nov 1869 Bridgeton, Glasgow, Lanark
David Beckett & Ann Ramsay
1871
Civil Parish: Paisley High Church
Address: 57 Broomlands Street
Francelia B?? 57, born Ireland <--- Isabella Blackley
Mary G 34, Mill Weaver born Paisley [Ireland]
-- who is this ? <--- Catherine McNaughton
Ann Bechett 24 daughter, born Paisley
Bechett 11 granddaughter born England <--- Isabella Blackley
Farrie Bechett 8 granddaughter born England <--- Jessie Blackley
James Bechett 3 grandson born Glasgow
Sarah Bechett 1 granddaughter born Glasgow
Ann's marriage lists her father as Robert Ramsay and her mother as Isabella Ramsay M.S. McGuire.
No second marriage has been found for Isabella to a Francis/Robert Ramsay.
No birth/baptism has been found for Ann.
Daughter Jane Beckett has not been found in 1871 and no death has been found.
Ann has not been found in 1851 or 1881 or later and no death has been found.
I'd appreciate some help filling in some of those gaps.
Thanks,
Fred
PS. Some have wondered if I'm doing research on behalf of others. I'm not. All queries relate to my
extended tree. My great-great-grandparents came from Ireland, Scotland, England and Germany.
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Hi Fred
Just extending those branches as you say...
James Beckett, son of David and Ann https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F7M5-DXB
Looks like the Becketts headed off to the US c. 1873:
1880 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MWVQ-K4N?cc=1417683
1900 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M9N4-D18?cc=1325221
Possible daughter Elizabeth b. 1874 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V1M5-VCY but had died by the 1880 census? Added: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JX45-XJ5
A further death in 1873 for a first born David https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JFH3-DYW Death reg for 9 month old David available to view on Family Search. Next David born in Nov. 1875?. This will help when trying to narrow down the dates if you want to search for the shipping entry.
Monica :)
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This looks like Isabella with her children in 1851...without an Ann and showing very much as Blackly:
Isabella Blackly 48 Washer Woman
Thomas Blackly 21, iron moulder
Mary Blackly 19 warehouse sewster
Isebella Blackly 17 Shread Twiner (thread?)
Sarrah Blackly 15 Weavers Assistant
Cathren Blackly 13 House Servant
Address: 5 Love Street, Paisley North
This entry doesn't show on FreeCen unfortunately to be able to check Isabella's marital status.
Monica
Added: Fred, just seen previous info on the family posted. See you already have this entry. Puzzle about Ann. I would have a question mark in my head as to whether she was actually Isabella's daughter...
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Regarding the missing Jane Beckett https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ42-K79, first born to David and Ann, have you checked the following entries:
1867 Jane BICKITT aged 2 Bridgeton Glasgow
1869 Jane Scott BICKETT aged 3 Milton Glasgow
Also outside of Glasgow:
1867 Jane BICKET aged 0 Ayr
Given the next two children, James and Sarah, were born in Bridgeton, that first entry would be the main one to check you would think.
Monica
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Hello Monica,
Thank you very much for taking the time to fill a few of the gaps for me.
Jane was born before the marriage hence mother's name as Blackley.
You are right about the probable death for Jane. I did more searching after posting and did notice several variations of the name Beckett I should also consider.
Not sure how I missed James.
I'm wondering why I can't find Isabella's second marriage. I have two more instances in this family where the death certificate lists a second marriage but I've been unable to find it.
Ann's marriage is not easy to read but it lists her father as Robert Ramsay and her mother as Isabella Ramsay M.S. McGuire. I can't read Robert's occupation. I started searching for a Francis and a Robert Ramsay and made no progress.
I searched again for a birth/baptism for Ann and had no luck.
This family and the Malcolms and the McLuckies will keep me busy for another seven years. Progress has been made and a bit more found this time around, which is good.
Regards,
Fred
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I can find no 2nd marriage for Isabella BLACKLEY nee McGUIRE despite her death certificate saying widow of 2nd Francis Ramsay - Farmer.
I can find not birth/baptism record for Ann born abt 1845. That could be because her parents were not married. It could also explain why Ann used Blackley for the birth of daughter Jane. Why would Ann then choose to use Ramsay when she married? Would that mean her mother actually married between 4 Aug 1866 and 31 Dec 1866? Or could it mean Ann was baptised as Ramsay between those dates?
Ann's marriage lists her father as a Robert Ramsay - Clerk (factory) Deceased - is that fact or fiction? Ann had left Scotland long before her mother's death in 1892. The informant was married sister Catherine McNaughton (There is a puzzle with her two ? marriages also to be solved).
So are Francis the farmer and Robert the clerk both fictitious characters?
Fred
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No new finds, Fred :-\
Mother Sarah only ever seems to show as Blackley in censuses up to her death registrations which includes a second married name of Ramsay.
Ann Blackley/Ramsay only pops up in 1861. No sign of her in 1851 under any surname is there?
I would be thinking whether she could be grandchild to Sarah...but then where was she in 1851 :-\
Did the Blackley children when they married only ever show their mother as Blackley/McGuire? Sometimes when mother remarried it might show as Sarah Ramsey, previously Blackley, M.S. McGuire. Guess also the surname of RAMSAY never came up in the extended family's children's names?
Monica
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Hello Monica,
You mean mother Isabella. That one and Jessie are names that run in 5 generations. No sign of Ramsay as a middle name for any descendants. McGuire is sometimes Maguire as in two extracted records:
Isabella Maguire Blackley bap. 2 Oct 1859 Liverpool, Lancashire
Thomas Blackley & Janet
Isabella Maguire Blackly born 6 Aug 1859 bap. 2 Oct 1859 St Peter Liverpool, Lancashire
Ann still not found in 1851. I only have this for 1861 so perhaps I should get the image:
1861
Civil Parish: Paisley High Church
County: Renfrew
Address: 57 Broomlands Street
Isabella Blackley Head 56 Ireland
Mary dau 26 Mill worker Ireland
Isabella dau 25 Mill worker Ireland
Sarah dau 23 Mill worker Ireland
Catherine dau 21 Mill worker Ireland
Ann dau 15 Mill worker Paisley
Thomas married in 1852 and it confirms what we know with another variation of the name:
Thomas BLAIKLEY
Spouse: Janet NEIL
Marriage: 7 Aug 1852 High Church Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland
Husband age at Marriage: 22
Wife age at Marriage: 23
No. 1087 1852 Aug 7
Thomas Blaikley 22 Iron moulder 5 Love St Middle Parish Paisley
Janet Neil 23 10 Wellmeadow High Parish Paisley
2 Proclamations Aug 8 Aug 15 Fee 4/-
Daughter Mary didn't marry.
1901
Registration Number: 573/1
Registration District: Paisley
Civil Parish: Paisley
County: Renfrewshire
ED: 1
Roll: CSSCT1901_204
Household schedule number: 78
Address: 23 Broomlands
Mary Blackley Head 72 Annintant Ireland
She died in 1915:
Page 64
1915 DEATHS in the District of Johnstone & Elderslie in the County of Renfrew
No. 192 - Mary Jane Blackley (Single) - 1915 October Fifteenth 2h 5m P.M. Kuranda Roundhill Drive Elderslie - F - 84 years - John Blackley Master Mason (Deceased) Isabella Blackley M.S. MacGuire (Deceased) - Broncho Pneumonia 7 days as certified by Thomas Watt M.B.C.M. - John Lang Grand Nephew - 1915 October 16th at Johnstone Wm. G. Fleming Registrar
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Daughter Isabella born Ireland abt 1835 not found after 1861. Can't be Ann's mother.
Daughter Sarah married in 1861:
Page 37
1861 Marriages in the Parish of High Church in the Burgh of Paisley
No. 73 1861 August Eighth 54 Wellmeadow Street Paisley After Banns according to the forms of the Congregationalists
[signed] William Jack Grocer Bachelor - 26 - 33 George Street Paisley - Alexander Jack Weaver (deceased) Isabella Jack M.S. Graham (deceased)
[signed] Sarah Blackley Mill Worker Spinster - 21 - 57 Broomlands Street Paisley - John Blackley Mason Isabella Blackley M.S. McGuire
[signed] John H. Lochore ? Minister of the Tabernach, Paisley
[signed] Robert Young, Witness, [signed] Mary Blackley, Witness
1861 August 13th ? at Paisley John Mitchyers ? Assistant Registrar
Daughter Catherine married once or is it twice - yet another puzzle I've not posted yet:
Page 47
1864 Marriages in the Parish of High Church in the Burgh of Paisley
No. 93 - 1864 On the Fourteenth Day of October at 57 Broomlands Street Paisley
After Banns according to the forms of the United Presbyterian Church
Signed Adam McNaughton Teacher of English Bachelor - 25 - Kerraithill / Ferraishill ? Bothwell - Adam McNaughton Carpenter Elizabeth McNaughton M.S. McLean -
Signed Catherine Blackley - Spinster - 24 - Karraithill / Ferraishill ? Bothwell - John Blackley (Deceased) Isabella Blackley M.S. McGuire -
Signed R. P. ? Brown Minister
Signed Wm. McNaughton Witness, Ann Blackley Witness
1864 October 16th at Paisley Denis ? Hearn ? Registrar
So none of the marriages has the word 'formerly' or mentions the name Ramsay
One more interesting thing is that in the 1861 marriage father John is not listed as being deceased and in the 1864 marriage he is. There is this death that could be his but I don't know how it could be verified:
1864 BLACKLEY JOHN M PAISLEY MIDDLE CHURCH /RENFREW 573/3X 0015 No Image
I'll have to keep searching for Ann in 1851.
Fred
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There is this death that could be his but I don't know how it could be verified:
1864 BLACKLEY JOHN M PAISLEY MIDDLE CHURCH /RENFREW 573/3X 0015 No Image
How frustrating. Why don't you contact SP and ask them what the problem with the image may be? The fact there is no age showing in the index, does happen. This is something that SP have been working through in recent times for death certs in certain years of the 1860s, where the age was not recorded on the index but does show on the image. They have been re-indexing the certs to include a death age. Not sure where they are with all of this. This is one of the reasons that on the death cert search screen you have a tick box for 'Include Unrecorded Ages in Age Range'.
Sorry about Isabella/Sarah :P Have you viewed original images for her and family in 1851 and 1861 to check her marital status?
Monica
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Hello Monica,
Thanks. I will contact SP re that death.
I will also get the images for 1851 and 1861 census.
Fred
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Hello Monica.
I have the images for 1851 and 1861 and they are easy to read and hence the transcriptions are accurate.
Isabella is listed as Married not a Widow.
Ann is listed as BLACKLEY daur 15 Mill worker Renfrewshire Paisley
I'm making no progress searching for a Francis and a Robert RAMSAY.
Ann died 1908 Paterson, Passaic, NJ, USA and David in 1901 same place.
Fred
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Hi Fred
Happy Easter to you :)
Good to have Isabella's marital status confirmed. However, she shows as Blackley not Ramsay, so for now we have to think that she was still married to John Blackley and that death you have an index ref from 1864 with 'no image' is ever so tantalizing!
No sign of John Blackley, the mason so far in 1851 or 1861 though...
Monica
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Hello Monica.
Hope you had a good Easter. We have had 5 days without rain which is almost as record for Easter in Sydney.
No sign at all of John, the journeyman mason.
I'm moving on to another puzzle with this family.
Fred