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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: terrac on Wednesday 09 April 14 08:30 BST (UK)
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I wonder if someone could help. I'm looking for the origins of a Susan Butcher born approx 1863.
Susan turns up in Hull, East Yorkshire and marries my x2 great grandfather in 1888. On 1891, 1901 and 1911 census she states she is from London or Newington. I even have her grave location, date she died, grave deeds and whom she is buried with but I cannot find where she came from!
Could anyone offer any suggestions? I have her marriage certificate which states her father is a John Butcher who's occupation is a Brick Maker. She is 25, spinster, no occupation and illiterate. Witnesses relate to the groom. She gives her address as a street in Hull. I have tried this address on the 1881 and 1891 census to see if there is a slim chance any of her family is there but no luck.
This lady appears in Hull in 1888 and I just cannot seem to match her up to anyone prior to that. I have chased a couple of John Butchers but they do not seem to match either. Could anyone help with anyone I may have missed and offer any suggestions please?
Ray
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Have you tried variations of the name Butcher such as Boucher
I have found my SELLs under Sell, Sall, Fell, Loll and many others. It was not easy but I got there in the end.
Also she may have had a broad London accent which could also account for her name being written incorrectly.
So to use a modern term you may have to 'think outside the box' ;D
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What was the name of her husband :-\
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She married an Arthur Walker Vaccare in 1888.
Wedding cert says Butcher. Daughters birth cert says mothers name Susan Walker Vaccare formerly Butcher.
I'll try variations of the name too :)
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searching for "Genuki Newington" on Google brings up a few places called Newington and they're in different counties but not one in London.
However, there's a STOKE NEWINGTON in Middlesex and part of Middlesex was in London in those days.
Here's part of Genuki entry and there's a few London places which we are familiar with :
<<STOKE NEWINGTON, a parish, and extensive suburban district of the metropolis, in the Finsbury division of the hundred of Ossulstone, county Middlesex, 3 miles N. by E. of St. Paul's, and 3 N. of Shoreditch church. At Newington-road is a station on the North London railway. The village, which is of considerable antiquity, being mentioned in Domesday Survey, is no longer confined to its own parish of St. Mary, but extends into the adjoining parishes of West Hackney, Hornsey, and Islington>>
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searching for "Genuki Newington" on Google brings up a few places called Newington and they're in different counties but not one in London.
However, there's a STOKE NEWINGTON in Middlesex and part of Middlesex was in London in those days.
Here's part of Genuki entry and there's a few London places which we are familiar with :
<<STOKE NEWINGTON, a parish, and extensive suburban district of the metropolis, in the Finsbury division of the hundred of Ossulstone, county Middlesex, 3 miles N. by E. of St. Paul's, and 3 N. of Shoreditch church. At Newington-road is a station on the North London railway. The village, which is of considerable antiquity, being mentioned in Domesday Survey, is no longer confined to its own parish of St. Mary, but extends into the adjoining parishes of West Hackney, Hornsey, and Islington>>
Snap I was just thinking the same and looking at this.
http://hackneycitizen.co.uk/2009/06/06/from-albert-town-to-butterfield-green/
It looks as though there were Brickmakers in Stoke Newington, so north of the Thames not south
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Where do you have Arthur & Susan in 1891
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Newington is an area of Southwark, London
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=65449
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It looks like the right area guys. If you tap Newington, London into google maps it pops up near Waterloo in Southwark.
In 1891 I have Arthur and Susan under the name "Walker" in Hull. They were on their own as the 1891 census was just before their first born son. Members of this family used Walker and Vaccare and Walker-Vaccare at a whim so it seems.
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On freebmd there seems to be only this older girl born in Southwark, Newington
Births Dec 1860
BUTCHER Susan Emma Newington Vol 1d / page 195
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and here's a local Newington district of Hull girl born about the right time but slightly different forename:-
Births Dec 1864
BUTCHER Susannah Sculcoates Vol 4b / page 247
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In 1891 I have Arthur and Susan under the name "Walker" in Hull. They were on their own as the 1891 census was just before their first born son. Members of this family used Walker and Vaccare and Walker-Vaccare at a whim so it seems.
Thanks, That was the only couple I could see that fitted that was why I asked. On that census Susan gives her birthplace as Hull and they are living in the Civil parish of Newington I wonder if her place of birth is a red herring. :-\
ADDED I think the Hull birth Rena has needs investigating
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There's a Susan E Butcher Aged 10 in the 1871 census. Father's name is Alfred Butcher which I think relates to that Susan Emma Butcher that you found.
On my Susan's marriage cert she names her father as John Butcher. She may have fibbed of course, I've had that sort of thing happen before with other certs.
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It looks like the right area guys. If you tap Newington, London into google maps it pops up near Waterloo in Southwark.
In 1891 I have Arthur and Susan under the name "Walker" in Hull. They were on their own as the 1891 census was just before their first born son. Members of this family used Walker and Vaccare and Walker-Vaccare at a whim so it seems.
I can just picture a foreigner whose home language doesn't include the letter "W" saying "Vaccare" instead of "Walker".
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Rosie: Yeah it is a little odd that. The enumerator has just ditto'd them all though. Maybe laziness? In the 1901 entry and 1911 entry it clearly mentions London for her. Strange.
I have original grave deeds, locations of all of her children's graves including the babies that died, her husband and his parents. I'm stumped when it comes down to her. :(
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Rena: Oh there are lots of spelling variations :D Vacharey, Varcare, Vaccari, Vaccare... The name is of Italian origin from a great grandfather a bit further down the line who arrives into the port of London in 1837.
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Hi, dismiss the Susan Emma Butcher, she marries James Rossiter and appears on the 1891 census.
John
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Thanks to all who have helped thus far.
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and here's a local Newington district of Hull girl born about the right time but slightly different forename:-
Births Dec 1864
BUTCHER Susannah Sculcoates Vol 4b / page 247
This is an interesting one too because after a quick look I don't know where she goes either. :) So she could be a possible!. I'll investigate further.
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Ordered the above birth certificate eventually. and it's Guiltcross and not Sculcoates. Someone has got excited and put the wrong area in. Wasted £10 gah! :(
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As it is the typed GRO index and not an online transcription that shows it with the wrong registration district I would query it with them and request a refund.
Freebmd is showing it in italics which means the registration number does not tie in with the district.
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They changed it to italics after I reported it to freebmd as having the wrong district information. :(
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You could still try and get your money back from the GRO - their index is wrong. Freebmd is only transcribing what is on the GRO index
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Yeah got to be worth a try I guess :) I'll see what they say.
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Completely ignored me. charming. :(
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That is bad, did you email them or snail mail
Rosie
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I used their "contact us" option on the GRO site and clicked for the online form "after you order a certificate" option. It says a response within 5 working days but I got nothing. :(
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Just spoke to someone on their Online chat service. Basically got told "tough luck". First of all tried to blame FreeBMD volunteers but Freebmd, Ancestry and FindMyPast all have the listing as Sculcoates so must be an error in the original reference or they all get the info from the same place (freebmd?). She advised that because it is so old (1864) they wouldnt amend the listing either. She said someone may notice the difference in Region and Volume numbers and query it with you but most likely will not. So be wary folks, if there's an error in a certificate listing it's pot luck if the GRO will pick up on it or just send it regardless. She mentioned it was best to call and do it over the telephone rather than completing the online form if you are unsure. However I wasn't unsure, I was copying the information given to me from 3 separate places! £9.25 lighter and a lesson learned I suppose :)
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I would try again as it isn't costing you anything. They should give you an answer of some description.
Rosie
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Sorry Rosie just edited my message as you were typing..
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That is a shame.
Freebmd has copies of the GRO index on their website. When you find an entry you can click the spectacles icon alongside (it is normally there) you can then view the actual GRO index page. It is this page that is wrong and nothing to do with the other sites that have taken their information from it.
Sorry you have had no luck but it is always worth a try.
Rosie