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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Aberdeenshire => Scotland => Aberdeenshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: richardw1806 on Wednesday 09 April 14 16:37 BST (UK)
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I am looking for any information on the ancestors of my maternal grandmother Kate Ann Moncur (b. 1876 Aberdeen, d.1951 Newcastle upon Tyne.
Her father was James Moncur (b.1838 Aberdeen), ship's steward; her mother Margaret Lyall (b.1848 Aberdeen), also ship's steward. James's siblings were: Jean (b.1823); Nicol (1824-1905); Elizabeth (b.1833); John (1834-1875); Alexander (1835-1841); Euphemia (1841-1905). I have quite a lot of information on the siblings and their offspring. Nicol (1824) owned The Adelphi Hotel and billiard rooms in Aberdeen for many years, and some of his children were also involved in both businesses, apart from Nicol Jnr (1858-1899), who spent much of his life as a merchant seaman and ship's master sailing the South China seas, where he died at sea.
I am most interested in locating James's (and siblings') father – my 2nd great grandfather – another Nicol Moncur (1801-1868), born in Stonehaven, Kincardineshire, Scotland. He had worked as a ship's steward on paddle steamers "Mansfield" and "Duke of Gordon", which operated from Aberdeen, and later was a "letter carrier and occasional waiter". He married Elizabeth Dingwall (1798-1862).
So far I've been unable to trace his parents or siblings. The Scottish Post Office Directories have been most helpful in tracking the movements of the Moncurs, and there are other as yet unidentified Moncurs in Aberdeen at various periods, living cheek-by-jowl with those I have identified (although they may well not be from the same branch of the family).
Any assistance greatly received!
Many thanks
Richard
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I am most interested in locating James's (and siblings') father – my 2nd great grandfather – another Nicol Moncur (1801-1868), born in Stonehaven, Kincardineshire, Scotland. He had worked as a ship's steward on paddle steamers "Mansfield" and "Duke of Gordon", which operated from Aberdeen, and later was a "letter carrier and occasional waiter". He married Elizabeth Dingwall (1798-1862).
Hi Richard
You have quite precise dates there for Nicol and wife Elizabeth. Did they die in Scotland on the years you show? If so, were there no parents' names given for Nicol (1801-1868) on his death registration?
Monica :)
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Hi Monica,
Thanks for your response. Yes, they died in Scotland as shown. Unfortunately the death register shows his father as "____ Moncur, crofter (deceased)", and his mother as "M. S. ______(deceased)".
Frustrating!
Richard
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Richard, how frustrating for you :-\ Thought that might be the case.
From what I can see, which you will undoubtedley have:
Elizabeth Dingwall's parents: John Dingwall and Catharine Jane Moir from online trees? I can see the John Dingwall from Elizabeth's marriage to Nicol. Wonder what the source is for her mother's name on trees?
Children post their marriage https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTJN-941 (banns in Montrose https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTKS-BL4):
Jean 1823
Nicol 1824 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XY6T-79Z
John 1827 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XY6R-XF8
Elizabeth 1829
Elizabeth 1833
Alexander 1835 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XY65-5LQ
James 1838
Euphemia 1842
Thought we might get some clues from Scottish naming pattern if used.
Monica
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Names fit well with 1841:
Nicol MONCUR 40 Male Servant b. Scotland
Elizabeth MONCUR 4 (might be wife? with age mistranscribed?)
Jean MONCUR 18
Elizabeth MONCUR 12
John MONCUR 7
Alexr. MONCUR 6
James MONCUR 3
(Unnamed) MONCUR, female, I month
Address: St. Andrews Street Aberdeen
Monica
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1851, again for background:
Nicol Moncur 51 Shop Steward 7-4 (ship? from FreeCen) Others b. Kincardineshire - Stonehaven
Elizabeth Moncur 52
Elizabeth Moncur 22
John Moncur 18
James Moncur 13
Euphemia Moncur 10 (maybe the unnamed girl, 1 month old in 1841?)
Address: 43 Commerce Street, Aberdeen
Monica
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Hello again Monica,
Very helpful of you, thanks. Quite a few of the records for the Moncurs are mis-trasncribed, but you're right about the 1841 census, although "MS" refers to Merchant Seaman rather than Male Servant. The Dingwall family is vast and complex, and it seems that Catherine Jane Moir is the mother, but I've just downloaded a book from the Internet Archive which lists all members of the Dingwall family – big in the hosiery business – and oddly seems to say that John Dingwall and Catherine Moir had no children! It's a huge tome and I need to spend time reading the whole thing and ticking off all the Dingwalls mentioned... thanks for your help in this search! Most grateful...
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This little bio clip from someone elses research potentially shows a marriage later for Catherine Jane Moir to a John Dingwall. See it shows this John Dingwall as Provost of Aberdeen :-\
From the clips of other people's research I have seen, we have Elizabeth's father John showing as the following, from her OPR marriage and then her death:
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Oh, strange... the clip appeared, then disappeared...
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Oops! No, it reappeared.... gremlins at work.
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Indeed ;D I will add again www.patrickspeople.co.uk/ourfamily/4356.htm
Monica
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Joking and gremlins aside...big question over mother's name for Elizabeth :-\ Supportive material on the previous link:
Arthur, the eldest son, succeeded, at
whose death, without issue, John Ding-
wall, his immediate younger brother, suc-
ceeded to both estates. He was Provost
of Aberdeen from 1799 to 1801. He was
three times married — (1) to a daughter of
George Willox, one of the magistrates of
Old Aberdeen ; (2) to Catherine Jane Moir,
daughter of Rev. William Moir, minister
of the parish of Fyvie ; and (3) to Ann
Taylor, who survived him. There were no
children by any of these marriages. Mr
Dingwall died on 29th March, 1836, when
the property passed to his younger brother
Alexander, who was for a lengthened
period postmaster of Aberdeen. (Family
Record of Dingwall Fordyce.)
http://archive.org/stream/aberdeenshireepihend/aberdeenshireepihend_djvu.txt
Monica
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Aaargh! Yes, much more to investigate... thanks for your help. I will delve into all this tomorrow. But still there is that wedding register for Nicol Moncur and Elizabeth Dingwall, with the father John Dingwall of Ardo (and one of the witnesses in the hosiery business!!!). These ancestors, eh!
Richard
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They don't make it easy, Richard ;) but that is always the challenge...
Monica
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:P Sorry, been bugging me! From the OPR marriage...Natural daughter of John Dingwall v. lawful daughter. Think Elizabeth was likely born out of wedlock... ::)
Monica
PS: Sure don't have to add, but if Elizabeth was born pre 1800, then makes sense John Dingwall marrying a Catherine Jane Moir in 1800...maybe! From the info above, there were no children from the three marriages of John Dingwall, Provost of Aberdeen.
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Richard, bare with me ;D
If Elizabeth was an illigitmate daughter of John Dingwall of Ardo, as confirmed by her marriage OPR to Nicol Moncur, and from the little we have seen, John Dingwall of Ardo had no lawful children from his three marriages, maybe there would be a mention of Elizabeth in his papers? From www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk Wills & Testament section there is:
DINGWALL JOHN 09/08/1838 ESQUIRE OF ARDO T. MISC. PAPERS 09/08/1838 SC1/37/15/P753 SEE AL ABERDEEN SHERIFF COURT WILLS SC1/37/15
29 pages...who knows what info is included there?
Monica
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Ah, thanks Monica... that does sound hopeful. I will nip onto Scotlands People and download the papers... have discovered many of the Moncur family's details from that site; an excellent resource!
I'll post what I discover...
The Wiles family tree is a public tree on Ancestry.co.uk... check it out if you wish.
Regards
Richard
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Hi
Did Kate marry William Brownlee a widower in Newcastle 1905.
Ronnie
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Hi
Did Kate marry William Brownlee a widower in Newcastle 1905.
Ronnie
If this is your family there are lots of super photos and info on the usual site Do take a look
Ronnie
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Hi Vabbott, Yes, assuming you mean did William Brownlee did marry Kate Moncur in 1905 after his first wife had died.... what pictures are you referring to on what usual site?
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Hello again
I was looking on ancestry when I was updating my family tree and searched for your folks.
The wiles tree which someone mentioned earlier to you is a beautiful tree. They have a lovely picture of the headstone of Kate and her husband and many lovely family photos taken in later years which you will be interested in . They are very lucky to know so much about their folks
Take a look on Ancestry yourself. If that's your family then Congratulations I envy you :)
Regards
Ronnie
Still looking for my family in Aberdeen :(
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Hello Ronnie, Thanks for your message. The Wiles tree you mention, is in fact, mine, so thanks for your kind words. It has taken my brother and me about four years to reach this stage and we've discovered so much about our family in the process, and made links with living relatives in the US, Australia – and Yorkshire! I shot the photo of the headstone you mention recently when up in Newcastle visiting my cousin.
The Aberdeen ancestors have been fascinating to seek out, but we're still stuck in some areas. The Scottish Post Office directories have been a great means of tracking those relatives who were in business. Good luck with your search!
Regards,
Richard
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Hi Richard
What a dummy I am so sorry...............but I really was impressed with your tree so well done.
Perhaps I may look at the directories too. Iam trying to find the deaths of my gg grandparents in Aberdeen Amelia Fyfe (Mackie) and Alexander Fyfe (stonemason) with no success perhaps if I check the directories I can find out when he ceased trading that might narrow the search down a bit.
Its all good fun isn't :)
Regards
Ronnie
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Hi Ronnie,
Thanks for your comments. Much appreciated.
This is a great site for the Scottish directories: The Internet Archive https://archive.org/search.php?query=collection%3Ascottishdirectories&sort=-publicdate&page=9
or get to them via the National Library of Scotland http://www.nls.uk/family-history/directories/post-office
I checked out some dates for you. From the 1843-1844 directory for Aberdeen up to the 1851-1852 directory there is an Alexander Fyfe, mason, residing at 37 St. Andrew Street. Could well be him! There are other Fyfes listed as well, possibly other family members?
Have fun! ;D
Regards
Richard
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oh thanks so much.... :)
all help gratefully received will check them all out and hopefully update with some good news in the not so distant future
Take Care
Ronnie
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Hello
My Great Great Grandfather was James Moncur a Ships Steward. I have a photograph of him, and am sure it must be the same James Moncur. One of his daughters (I am not sure whether she had other siblings) was Jeannie Dingwall Moncur (my Great Grandmother) who married Herbert Wilmot Holland (Newcastle upon Tyne) 07/02/1891 at the age of 21. My Grandfather was born soon after (hmmm) he was named Herbert Dingwall Holland. This seems to tie up with the Dingwall's further up your tree.
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Hello
My Great Great Grandfather was James Moncur a Ships Steward. I have a photograph of him, and am sure it must be the same James Moncur. One of his daughters (I am not sure whether she had other siblings) was Jeannie Dingwall Moncur (my Great Grandmother) who married Herbert Wilmot Holland (Newcastle upon Tyne) 07/02/1891 at the age of 21. My Grandfather was born soon after (hmmm) he was named Herbert Dingwall Holland. This seems to tie up with the Dingwall's further up your tree.
Hello. Thanks for the message. This is very interesting because James Moncur was my great grandfather. It would be fabulous to see a photograph of him, and any others you may have of the family. Jeannie Dingwall Moncur was my grandmother's sister. She was Kate Moncur, my mother's mother.
We have it that your grandfather, Herbert Dingwall Holland-Ramsay, married Dorothy Courteney and they had three children: Jean Holland-Ramsay, Ian Hugh Holland-Ramsay and Miles Holland-Ramsay. This is as far as we have gone on this branch of the family, but you are apparently part of that! Jeannie Dingwall Moncur married again after Herbert Wilmot Holland's death, to Thomas Ramsay Ramsay, and we are in contact with their grandson, Allan John Heppell Ramsay.
It would be fascinating to learn anything else you may have of our joint families! I can give you permission to view our family tree on Ancestry, if you cannot already see it...
Regards
Richard Wiles
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Richard,
Or cousin so many times removed! Yes you have all that correct, as far as our direct family tree is concerned and can let you have further details. Strangely enough Dorothy Courtenay's (with an a - they were quite particular about that) sister Katie Miles, married Julius Wiles a surgeon in the crimean war. So our DNA may cross paths more than once! My family tree is on Geni. Would love to make contact with Alan as my Dad mentioned him quiet often. My Dad was Miles and has just passed away at the age of 90 (25th June, 2017) and I'm sure Alan would remember him.
How can I post the family photos?
Penny
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Hello Penny,
Great to make contact with more cousins! You can post scans of photos via the "insert image" button on the toolbar, or send them to me via a PM (private message) if you don't want to post them on the forum.
Can I give you permission to view our family tree on ancestry.co.uk? I think you will find it interesting! If so, we should exchange email addresses in a PM, as I'd need yours for the ancestry permission.
I will contact Allan, with whom my brother Phill and I have recently made contact, to mention that we have located you, and explain the connection with his cousin Miles. I am sure he'd be thrilled... we're awaiting some photos from him too.
Best wishes
Richard