RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: chelsen on Saturday 12 April 14 15:10 BST (UK)
-
I am researching for a friend whose Great Great Grandfather Paul Jackson, Surgeon, left a huge amount of money (for over a hundred years ago) when he died in London in 1896 aged 84. I have found a probate record dated 2nd November 1896 on Ancestry which showed that probate was granted to two unrelated people, presumably, executors or lawyers.
Then I found a second probate record, dated 1914, relating to the same person, Paul Jackson, Surgeon, who died in 1896 but this time a small amount of money was left and probate was granted to John Charles Jackson, his only surviving son. The previous grant of probate was referred to in this record.
There were complications when Paul Jackson died in that his eldest son, Thomas Creswick Jackson had already died (one surviving son, living abroad) and his second son William Henry Paul Jackson had disappeared in Argentina many years before.
I have found a copy of a legal notice printed in a newspaper dated 1898 asking for information about the missing son and a deadline by which he should come forward.
Why would another Grant of Probate be issued in 1914, all those years later and for a small amount of money?
Is it possible to find out what happened to the very large amount of money he left in 1896?
I think it is impossible to find out these things but I would be extremely grateful if anyone could give me any ideas.
-
To find out what happened to the money you would need to buy a copyof the Will.
Hopefully all will be explained in it - who has been left what, and who the executors were etc.
-
Thank you Lizdb
I searched on National Archives for the will but the catalogue doesn't seem to cover 1896. Perhaps I am looking in the wrong place.
Carole
-
I have seen second grants of probate from time to time. It appears to be in cases where additional assets are found after the estate has been wound up, and the original executor is dead or not available to deal with the new assets. Consequently someone else has to apply to the Probate Court to be appointed executor in order to deal with the extra assets.
You mention it was “a small amount of money.” The comparative size may not be the key issue. If there’s no valid executor, they aren’t going to hand it over. Lawfully they can only hand it over or dispose of it as directed by an executor. Hence the relatives would have had to go back to the Probate court and get a 2nd grant (which appoints a new executor or administrator).
-
Thank you Elwyn. That is very helpful.
Maybe I am reading too much into the fact that one of the sons was missing presumed dead. It may be that the assets were distributed in 1896 but, as you say, something else came to light in 1914.
I am very grateful for the help.
Carole
-
Hi Carole
The calendars for grants after 1858 refer to the wills now held by Her Majesty's Courts & Tribunals Service (HMCTS)
You can apply for copies of the grants and the will by post if you can't get to London, details here
http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/probate/copies-of-grants-wills
If you want copies, you should get your application in before 22nd April when the price goes up from £6 to £10 per grant/will.
Please be aware though that if you send of £12 you will receive 2 separate grants, one for 1896 and 1914, but you might get 2 copies of the same will. The grants will contain no further information than is shown in the calendars.
Dawn
-
It could be that the second probate referred to money left to the missing son.
Possibly information had come to light about his whereabouts or death -- if he had pre-deceased his father, there may have been legacies to him that were invalidated and that money needed to be re-distributed
I have a case where a second grant of probate is made shortly after a missing son is legally presumed dead nearly 30 years after his father (the testator) died
-
Thank you Dawnsh and Marmalady.
I am not sure if it is worth pursuing the probate records if it doesn't offer any information about what was in the will.
Hopefully, the National Archives will eventually publish more wills.
Thanks again.
Carole
-
Thank you Dawnsh and Marmalady.
I am not sure if it is worth pursuing the probate records if it doesn't offer any information about what was in the will.
Hopefully, the National Archives will eventually publish more wills.
Thanks again.
Carole
You can get a copy of the will as described in Dawnsh's post
Go to http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/probate/copies-of-grants-wills and fill in the form giving the details as you know them -- the names, dates, grant of probate dates etc and you will get a copy of both the grant AND the will
As dawnsh says, it currently costs £6 but will be going up to £10 at the end of the month
As post 1858 wills are held by HMCTS and issue copies on payment of a fee, it is very unlikely that National Archives will be publishing them any time soon -- and they will only have what is already available from HMCTS anyway
-
Can I just re-itterate what the others have said.
When I suggested getting a copy of the will I meant exactly what has been described by Dawnsh and others - sending for a copy from the Probate Office.
It will be the only way, I believe, to see what exactly the situation is here.
(Thanks for the tip that they are going up to £10. Doesnt seem long since they were 75p!)
-
Thank you everyone.
I have looked on the website and am still not sure what can be gained by sending for copies as the information you get back seems to be the same as the information already available on Ancestry.
Anyway, I will ask my friend if he wants me to go any further with this.
Thanks
Carole
-
Hi Carole
The calendars on Ancestry are an index to "Grants of Representation" which in laymans terms are known as wills and letters of administration. The process of applying for probate ends up with 2 documents, the grant and the copy of the will, or if there is mention of a letter of administration, just the grant.
You use the index to obtain copies of the actual wills from HMCTS at Leeds.
If the calndar says Probate there is a will. If the calendar says Administration, there isn't.
Once you have the actual wills, you will get all the details as to how he wanted his estate to be disposed of after his death.
Wills can sometimes be extremely useful documents, it's the grant part of the document that contains no more information that n the index.
-
Thank you Dawnsh.
Sorry for being so dense!
Carole.
-
If you want copies, you should get your application in before 22nd April when the price goes up from £6 to £10 per grant/will.
Just downloaded a copy of the pa01s-eng form which there is a link to on the website and it says the price is currently £7 per grant/will. I had a feeling it went up a £1 last year or the year before.
-
It's £7 is you want 2 copies of the same document
The fee payable for a search which includes being sent a copy of a grant is £6 and if the deceased left a will you will be sent a copy of the grant and will. As standard the copies are not sealed.
Additional copies of the grant are £1 each and the will £1 each. For example, two copies of the grant and one copy of the will would be £7.
They've been £6 for about 4 years
-
Sorry mis-read the form. ;D ;D