RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Pautie on Wednesday 16 April 14 12:45 BST (UK)
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A relative died in Hartwood Asylum in February 1927. Is it likely he was buried in the graveyard on the grounds and if so, where are these burial records now held?
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Those records were "discovered" a couple of years ago and were sent to the Cemeteries Department of North Lanarkshire Council. By this time they may have found their way to the NLC Archives at Motherwell Heritage Centre. a quick telephone call or email to either place will let you know.
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Hi Pautie,
What was your relative's name? :)
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Hi GeriK64,
His name was Patrick Tierney he died aged 60 of parkinsons disease. Home address was Dundyvan Road, Coatbridge.
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Hi Pautie,
He is interrred in Old Monkland cemetery. Lair 573 in common ground on 26 Feb 1927.
Geri. 8)
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Thank you very much Geri. I have been in that cemetery many times for the funeral of other relatives and had no idea.
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It is interesting that GeriK64 had the burial information. I also had a relative, Andrew McKay, who died at Hartwood 13 December 1928 (aged 23). His cause of death is given as epilepsy. Would I be able to find his medical records and burial place?
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I viewed a house opposite Hartwood last year, unfortunately out bid, there are photo's on line which are fascinating. I work with someone who had a family member in there, I'm told they had a crematorium and there are graves however I have not seen this myself.
Monica Meg
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I viewed a house opposite Hartwood last year, unfortunately out bid, there are photo's on line which are fascinating. I work with someone who had a family member in there, I'm told they had a crematorium and there are graves however I have not seen this myself.
Monica Meg
A crematorium and graves seems a bit startling as it was after all an NHS hospital. Perhaps, they regularly incinerated hospital waste. There are plenty of cemeteries in Shotts, Monklands, Cambusnethan etc. easily reached from Hartwood.
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I very much doubt that there was a crematorium but as far as I know there was a burial ground, the records of it are with North Lanarkshire Council.
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I'm a little late to this conversation. My great-grandfather (William Haney) of Bellshill died at Hartwood of cerebral thrombosis in 1940. Where do l look up where he, and other ancestors are buried - as GeriK64 seems to have done? I have contacted North Lanarkshire about who all are buried in a particular plot - not all are listed on the stone, if there is one.
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I'm trying to trace my Mum's cousin, Jean Brown who was in Hartwood Asylum. Though we have now traced the records, having recently been moved, we can't get anywhere as we can't trace her birth though my Mum guesses it was between 1920-1930 in Lanarkshire (Airdrie) or even Glasgow..
We only know her father was my Great Uncle - William Brown DOB 19.12.1895 of Chapel St, Airdrie though we don't know Jean's mother though suspect it was William's first wife who again we can't find in the online records at SP. (2nd wife Elizabeth Rose Smith who was not Jean's mother).
Seem to have still mate. Any ideas of how to progress anyone?
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Hi Thumbelina,
Do you have William's death record or the records for either of his marriages? His death certificate would confirm the name of his first wife who you have indicated may be the mother of the person you are trying to chase.
Do you know birthplaces for any other children William may have had? It would indicate whether the family moved around or not and would narrow down the searching, as Brown is a very common name. My family are Smiths, so I know how it feels to 'lose' people.
Bear in mind too, that if you are looking for people born in the 1920s and 1930s, they may still be living, so you may be limited in what personal information can be shared about them publicly on Rootschat.
Best wishes
Rockford
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I'm a little late to this conversation. My great-grandfather (William Haney) of Bellshill died at Hartwood of cerebral thrombosis in 1940. Where do l look up where he, and other ancestors are buried - as GeriK64 seems to have done? I have contacted North Lanarkshire about who all are buried in a particular plot - not all are listed on the stone, if there is one.
Hi SarahU
Some of the records have been digitised at the Motherwell Heritage Centre [contact details here: https://culturenl.co.uk/museums/visiting-us/north-lanarkshire-heritage-centre/ ]. I don't know if they will do 'lookups' if you can't go in person, but might be worth giving them a call. I was able to visit and found a load of my relations as the digital records allowed me to search by name across a number of burial places.
Even if he died at Hartwood, your great grandfather could be buried in any of a number of places, as there a a lot of cemeteries and churchyard around Bellshill. uried in My 3 x great GF died in 1911 at Hartwood, but was buried in New Stevenson, which is where his wife had been buried in 1908.
I think the problem is that the main 'cemeteries' part of the council will hold some records, but these might not be electronic and will allow a search by cemetery or a specific plot, but not by name across more than one location.
If you do call MHC, let us know how you get on!
Best wishe
Rockford
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Hi, yes I now have William's death - 06.03.1967 at Mavisband St.
His first marriage was to Sarah Rose on 09.05.1919 at The Olive Hall, Airdrie. We guess she is Jean Brown's mother as the dates work. It is William and her daughter Jean Brown's records we are trying to find but need Jean's birth/death details in order to do so and they are proving elusive.
I don't know when William and Sarah divorced (or how to find that) but his 2nd marriage shows him as divorced.
His 2nd marriage was to Elizabeth Rose Smith 06.10.1939 ; we understand they didn't have children. Indeed we don't know if he had other children with Sarah but note her parents are shown as Ann Code and Richard Rose on the marriage cert. Phoebe Rose is a Witness (Sarah's sister?)
I can't find Ann's mother either even though the name is rare; that might have been Jean/Jane as link to Jean due to naming traditions. I seem to be unable to progress any further.
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These look like some reference to the divorce for William Brown and Sarah Rose:
Reference CS257/3628
Title (Poor) William Brown v Sarah Rose or Brown: Divorce
Date 1934
Access status This record is Closed.
Monica
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Do you know for certain that William and Sarah's daughter Jean is deceased?
There is no way to confirm her birth details online as her birth is outside of the period you can view the image online. You can only review the index on SP as you have I am sure. However, given how common the name is, it will be neigh on impossible to begin to guess which might be her birth entry. The only way to confirm her details would be to check in person at one of the main genealogy centres.
Mother's maiden name was included in the death indexes from 1974. I cannot easily see anything coming up her after this time either :-\
Monica
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Sarah Rose's parents, Richard and Ann, were both born in England it seems. The marriage may also in England. Sarah's birth cert should include date and place of parents' marriage. If Sarah's mum Annie died in Scotland, you might be able to confirm her mother's name from her death reg.
From 1901:
Richard Rose 32 traveller showman b. England
Annie Rose 31 b. England
William Rose 5 b. Blantyre
Sarah Rose 3 b. Fauldhouse
Phoebe Rose 2 b. Fauldhouse
Edward Rose 9 Months b. Airdrie
Address: Steels Show Ground Caravan, Coatbridge
Monica
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There is a likely death for Sarah's mother Annie in 1930:
Annie Code and Rosa (how it is indexed) in 1930 in Dennistoun, age 61yrs - ref 644/4 799
Monica
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Thanks for the info Monica.
I'm interested to see the reference to (Poor) William Brown on the divorce record. Can you tell me where I can pay to view the record please?
Mum thinks Jean is deceased and from what you say, looks like she needs to go to the records office though we feel the 1922 birth entry fits.
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These divorce records mentioned on the NRS site are showing as closed and not open to public inspection unfortunately.
Monica
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Ah well. A date would have gave been good. Never mind.
Thanks again
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Quik Q - any idea why Willuan referred to as (poor) William in divorce listing you quoted?
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Quik Q - any idea why Willuan referred to as (poor) William in divorce listing you quoted?
Was he getting relief under the Poor Laws which would cause the record to be noted?
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I don't know to be honest. How could I find out? I looked at SP website but am none the wiser as usual :(
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Quik Q - any idea why Willuan referred to as (poor) William in divorce listing you quoted?
Was he getting relief under the Poor Laws which would cause the record to be noted?
Yes, just so. It may not have been under the Poor Law but he was getting some sort of subsidy to cover his legal costs.
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Ah well. A date would have gave been good. Never mind.
Monica quoted the date upthread - 1934.
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In the era prior to the Legal Aid and Solicitors (Scotland) Act 1949 that introduced civil legal aid, a litigant in the civil court had to seek to be admitted to the local Poor's Roll. If accepted, which was far from easy, then the basic costs of a court action would be met from parish funds, and the lawyer conducted the case for no fee.
By the 1930s this system was recognised as unworkable, but it was not until WW2 was over that Legal Aid reform, as proposed in 1937, took place.
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In the era prior to the Legal Aid and Solicitors (Scotland) Act 1949 that introduced civil legal aid, a litigant in the civil court had to seek to be admitted to the local Poor's Roll. If accepted, which was far from easy, then the basic costs of a court action would be met from parish funds, and the lawyer conducted the case for no fee.
By the 1930s this system was recognised as unworkable, but it was not until WW2 was over that Legal Aid reform, as proposed in 1937, took place.
Thanks for that enlightenment, djct59.
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Thanks for the information djct59.
So is there anyway to see those records? I'm only getting background text on SP not knowledge of how and if we can access those records.
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So is there anyway to see those records? I'm only getting background text on SP not knowledge of how and if we can access those records.
No. You cannot look at divorce records as recent as 1934. That is what it means when it says in the National Records of Scotland catalogue that it is closed.
Go to http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/search.aspx and type CS257/3628 in the 'Reference:' field, then 'Search'.
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This thread is very interested to us at the minute because a few of us who live in Hartwood have begun to restore the graveyard and rediscover the names, stories and history of those buried. As for Patrick Tierney he is recorded as being a service personnel on the records and along with the other 5 we honoured them on 11/11 at 11am this year. I have begun to catalogue the names and the grave numbers which we are slowly uncovering. If anyone had any further information we would gladly receive and vice versus
Loraine
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As far as I know the burial register for the Hartwood burial ground is with North Lanarkshire Council but I wasn't aware that the site is marked by headstones, very interesting. Good luck with your work Lainemd.