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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: CelticAnnie on Wednesday 16 April 14 20:34 BST (UK)
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Was rather shocked to discover the following transcription from the Australia Birth Index 1788-1922 on Ancestry :o -- we believed we knew a lot about this side of the family, but we had never encountered the existence of this individual before!
This is how Ancestry have transcribed it:
Name: David E J Davies
Birth date: 1856
Father's name: Owen Davies
Mother's name: Jane
Birthplace: New South Wales
Registration year: 1856
Registration place: Paddington, New South Wales
Registration number: 2445
Is there anyone out there with access to copy of the original birth record who could kindly, first, confirm that Ancestry have transcribed it correctly, and secondly, is there any additional information available on the original about this birth?
Many thanks for reading this.
CELTICANNIE
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Hi,
There appears to be 2 births for Owen and Jane.
V18541297 40/1854 DAVIES OWEN B M father OWEN mother JANE
2445/1856 DAVIES DAVID E J father OWEN mother JANE PADDINGTON
What appears to maybe be the parents marriage
V1854638 81/1854 DAVIES OWEN MC LEAN JANE QC
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V18541297 40/1854 DAVIES OWEN B M father OWEN mother JANE
Owen Edward Mytton Davies
Christening Date 13 Dec 1854
Birth Date 10 Nov 1854
Birthplace NEW SOUTH WALES, AUSTRALIA
Father's Name Owen Davies
Mother's Name Jane
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTHV-WGZ
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Who appears to be Owen jnr in 1871 UK census
Owen E M Davies
Age 16
Scholar
Birthplace Sidney, Australia
Schedule Type Institution
Registration District Easthampstead
Sub-District Sandhurst
Parish Sandhurst
County Berkshire
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VFX5-QHK
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Thank you for your trouble, Giblet -- yes; this is indeed "my lot"! I do already know quite a bit about them them -- it is just this David E J who has suddenly (and to our considerable surprise) 'popped up' who is causing us curiousity and concern. Given how much we know about the rest of them, it just seems very odd that we never encountered David before.
Do I take it, then, that the original record shows nothing beyond what Ancestry have transcribed? :(
CELTICANNIE
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Im having trouble finding anything on David E J ???
If you have a great deal of information already a birth certificate may not show you anything new that you dont already have. There is a link somewhere that has what information would/should be on the cert for that era. I'll see if i can find it.
edited to add
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
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Thanks for the link Giblet -- this looks helpful. As you say, I think we'll have to get a copy of the birth certificate which it seems may at least show wife's maiden name. An old Pedigree (published in UK in 1857) states that Owen and Jane had a daughter, Mary Constance, born 1st November 1856; and it seems odd that David should have been born to them, apparently, also in 1856 -- and not been mentioned in this pedigree when Mary (a 'mere' female) was. I've also not been able to find any mention of Mary in the Australia Birth Index. ??? But she definitely existed!
All very strange.
CELTICANNIE
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To know more about the birth you would need to make a certificate purchase.
A less expensive alternative to ordering a copy of the original is through a Transcription Agent
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html#transcription
Here is a link to what you may find on
Australian certificates-
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
Sue
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Empire 14 Nov 1854
BIRTHS........ On the 10th instant, at Port View House, Paddington, the wife of Owen Davies, Esq., 11th Regiment, of a son.
Sydney Morning Herald 3 Nov 1856
BIRTHS. On the 1st November, at Port View House, Paddington, the wife of Owen Davies, Esq., 11th Regiment, of a daughter.
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It appears that in 1871 Mary C DAVIES, (if I have the correct girl ???) was a pupil at the Royal School located in Charlcombe, Somerset.
She is listed as 14 years of age and born in Australia.
Further record searching shows Owen E M DAVIES a pupil at Wellington College in the district of Easthampstead, Berkshie. He is one of a great many boys enrolled.
Is this correct to your knowledge?
Sue
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Do I take it, then, that the original record shows nothing beyond what Ancestry have transcribed? :(
:) If you did take it that way, you would be missing out on further info. What Ancestry has transcribed is NOT from the original record. They do not claim it to be from the original record. It is from an INDEX of the NSW Registrar General's Office for Births, Deaths, and Marriages, and most likely from the index originally prepared in the 1930s, based on volunteers reading from the Reg Gen's records.
Civil Registration commenced in NSW in 1856. You can tell the difference between an Early Church Record held by NSW BDM and a Civil Registration held by NSW BDM because the Early Church Records (mostly pre 1856, but some as recent as 1890) include the letter "V" as part of their index reference no.
Your chap's birth registration is listed at the FREE to search website that NSW BDM offers. You do not need access to Ancestry to find the NSW BDM index. Here is the link that is listed at RChat's fantastic NSW Resources Board (lots of other live links there too)... http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html
and
Registration Number is 2445/1856 (1856 being the year, and 2445 being the Cert no allocated by the Reg Gen's office. There will also be another number, the one allocated by the local office where the registration was made ...... Paddington District, a district in the Eastern Suburbs of Sydney).
The mother's surname DAVIES
The baby's first given name and any initials for further given names DAVID E J
The given name of the father of the baby OWEN (where the parents were a married couple)
The given name of the mother of the baby JANE
The district where the registration was made PADDINGTON
To complicate matters further, in the initial stages of civil registration, it was possible for a birth to be registered in NSW where the baby was born OUTSIDE of NSW, was not yet 18 months of age and was living in NSW.
So a 1856 NSW birth registration should give you
Where and when born (address eg 'at sea off the coast of NSW' or street and town in NSW, or if born in rural district the name of the farm/station etc, name of the day of week and the full date,
The family surname
The baby's given names (all, not just initials :) ) and if present when birth being registered
Father's name, occupation, age, and birthplace :)
Date and place of marriage and any previous issue (of the marriage)
Mother's name, previous name/s, maiden surname, age, and birthplace
The name of the informant (usually a parent, but could be an older sibling, or relative, or family friend, or householder etc), informant's relationship to the baby and the informant's address
The names of the witnesses (doctor, midwife, nurse)
The local registrar. (until WWI, the info was usually given verbally, so this is the name of the person who recorded the info provided .... verbally, so subject to various accents, spellings, poor handwriting, etc).
Here's a sample of a birth registration held by NSW BDM and displayed at the website. It is for Henry LAWSON, a famous Australian Poet. He was born 1867. http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/resources/b1867-11928.pdf
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM,
Can you help with any information about Port View House before it became the Foundling Home in 1875?
This is the birthplace of the 2 children found by Wivenhoe.
Sue
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Edit this post to note I did not find further details for Port View House, Paddington :-[ trusty book is misplaced. ::) ::)
Sands Suburban Directory 1864 (entries closed end of October 1863 for 1864 publication)
EASTERN SUBURBS (page 121)
Mrs DAVIES, Victoria Street, PADDINGTON
Cheers, JM
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This is incredibly helpful and kind of you to spell all this out for me, majm! I have very little experience with Australian documents; and you have given me here all I need to know for this project! I know exactly how to follow this through, now.
Thank you so much, Sparrett and Wivenhoe. :) The newspaper birth announcements are particularly interesting -- listing the actual property where both births took place; plus useful confirmation of Mary Constance's birth-date (otherwise only attested to in the Pedigree). Wonder why there was no newspaper announcement of David E J's birth, though? ??? There is something odd about this. (I shall post if I ever find out what it is!)
Yes, Sparrett, the info you found re children's schooling is correct -- the family left Australia (initially for Ireland) in 1859.
Thank you for finding all this stuff! :-* I am very grateful for everyone's help.
CELTICANNIE :)
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Birth at Port View House 1861....to Kenneth STEWART (wife Anne for births to this couple)
SMH 14 Oct 1869
On the 13th instant, at his residence, Underwood-street, Paddington, Mr. KENNETH STEWART, aged 62 years, only son of the late Captain LACHLAN STEWART, of the 79th Regiment of High- landers, of Crachinish, in Minish, Isle of Skye, Scotland.
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Birth at Port View House 1861....to Kenneth STEWART (wife Anne for births to this couple)
SMH 14 Oct 1869
On the 13th instant, at his residence, Underwood-street, Paddington, Mr. KENNETH STEWART, aged 62 years, only son of the late Captain LACHLAN STEWART, of the 79th Regiment of High- landers, of Crachinish, in Minish, Isle of Skye, Scotland.
Yes, I spotted a number of births and marriages taking place at Port View House and I wonder if it was an residential Establishment for regimental families.
Sue
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Is there a Tasmania connection here.....?
Launceston Examiner 18 Nov 1856
BIRTHS. On the 1st November, at Port View House, Paddington, the wife of Owen Davies, Esq., 11th Regiment, of a daughter.
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So where were the various companies of the 11th regiment stationed in 1855 -1856?
I can imagine that some were defending the colonies from the fear of imminent invasion of the Russians (Crimea War, yes, there was a credible fear in the Antipodean colonies that Russia was about to invade !). (Fort Dennison, Sydney Harbour, completed in 1857 to defend Sydney against this invasion threat http://fortdenison.com.au/the-fort/history-of-fort-denison/ )
Convict transportation to VDL ceased 1853, but some convicts were still serving out their sentences. (Convict transportation to NSW ceased 1840s). WA started to accept convicts in late 1850s
There were regiments across the Tasman in New Zealand :)
Cheers, JM
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You probably have Owen E M Davies marriage announcement http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14373454
Interesting that it appeared in a Sydney newspaper
regards,
Ros
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Thanks for this Rosball -- had seen this before, but certainly wasn't aware it had been published in an Australian newspaper. Rather intriguing. Always thought this must have been a pretty amazing wedding, with so many vicars assisting in it!
CELTICANNIE
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In 1856 Owen Davies of 11th regiment was at Cockatoo Island convict establishment (and thanks the surgeon Henry Walter Ainslie for his services to the families).
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article28638914
bottom right hand corner
regards,
Ros
Yes CelticAnnie a pretty special wedding :)
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Some trivia (which doesn't help your search) in September 1857,Mr Owen Davies of the 11th regiment attended the Mayor's Fancy Dress Ball. Doesn't give his costume :(
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13000723
regards,
Ros
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Cox & Co Australian Almanac 1857 page 221 (FindMyPast)
My reading of of a list of officers from Colonel down to Ensigns:
Military Establishments. Regiments in the Colonies SYDNEY 11th (North Devon)
Lieutenants, ……. Owen Davies, 6th June, 1854
Facings green. Agent, Messrs. Cox & Co.
ALSO :
I wonder if David was baptised at St Matthias, Paddington? And the parish register has misfiled itself somewhere, or was recorded in the Military register that may have stayed with the regiment? …. St Matthias commences 1855 with services as a C of E School as well as the Garrison Church for Victoria Barracks…. I wonder where Rev Thomas WILSON’s parish register would be, OR his diary? http://www.matthias.org.au/files/pdf/history_of_st_matthias_church.pdf
Diocese of Sydney and Ancestry announcement about uploading C of E Diocese of Sydney (includes St Matthias, Paddington) registers
http://www.archives.anglican.asn.au/index.php/p2/family_history
"We are currently planning a mass digitization project with Ancestry.com which will provide even wider public access to the information contained in our baptism, confirmation, marriage and burial registers."
ALSO
This pdf has a reference for Max Kelly’s book Paddock Full of Houses : Paddington 1840-1890.
http://paddingtonuca.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/History-of-Village-Church-Land-Acquisitions-and-USe.pdf
http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/9361863?selectedversion=NBD1621787
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM,
Can you help with any information about Port View House before it became the Foundling Home in 1875?
This is the birthplace of the 2 children found by Wivenhoe.
Sue
Well errr ..... no I have not found Port View House :-[ , but will this help a tad :)
I can find a SEA VIEW VILLA shown on 1844 map in the “History of Village church ……. Pdf” page 9. On North eastern side of South Head Road (ie today’s Oxford St) at the eastern end of the map, past Elizabeth St
Perhaps an email to Woollahra Local History Library refering to that pdf and the live link and asking for them to check the Tracing of B J 12.9.1955 referenced P2 1844 (several sheets, perhaps Sheet 2, but not sure) ???
( that pdf =
http://paddingtonuca.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/History-of-Village-Church-Land-Acquisitions-and-USe.pdf )
At same time perhaps ask if they know of a connection between Owen DAVIES of the 11th Regiment and their Mayor in 1953 after whom the Davies Reserve, Cnr Queen and Oxford Streets, Woollahra is name (remember that Oxford St was earlier known as South Head Road). http://www.woollahra.nsw.gov.au/library/local_history/local_history_fast_facts/d
http://www.woollahra.nsw.gov.au/library/local_history
http://www.woollahra.nsw.gov.au/council/contact_us
Cheers, JM
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For you interest I have been able to check registration numbers either side of #2445 at Paddington in 1856. I looked at the three preceding and three following. None seemed relevant
I did this because it is possible for a transcriber to attribute a child to the wrong parents simply by slipping or missing a line in the original record.
In other words, I wondered whether David E J belonged to others nearby on the register and Mary C was accidentally listed above or below.
Sue
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So sorry not to have gotten back earlier to thank you all for your much-apreciated additional work -- am in a different time zone (obviously) so went to bed, and then had a doctor's appointment in town first thing.
Rosball, I enjoyed reading the two newspaper articles you found. To judge from the professions of Capt Davies' colleagues listed as co-signatories in the Cockatoo convict island piece, it looks as though there was some sort of significant building works going on there at the time. And it was very interesting to read the types of different costumes people chose for fancy dress at the Mayor's Ball (which appears to have been attended by hundreds of people!).
MAJM, thank you for your further thoughts pursuing why David's baptismal record may not have yet come to light, and for the link to PDF about Paddington and suggestion to try e-mailing Woollahra Local History Library. This is most useful.
Sparrett, Thank you so much for taking time out to check that David wasn't attributed by mis-transcription to wrong parents in light of Mary's also being born in 1856 -- I'm still having difficulty accepting that he truly existed as Owen Davies' and Jane's child. There are a couple of references in slightly later-dated family documents to the number of children this couple have, and David makes one too many! I think that he must either have died as a baby/toddler or for some reason not have been brought up by this family.
Y'all have significantly expanded/potentially expanded my knowledge of Captain Owen Davies' time in Australia -- I am most grateful to you. :) I have very much enjoyed my time with you!
Thank you all again so much.
CELTICANNIE
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This pdf has a reference for Max Kelly’s book Paddock Full of Houses : Paddington 1840-1890.
http://paddingtonuca.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/History-of-Village-Church-Land-Acquisitions-and-USe.pdf
http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/9361863?selectedversion=NBD1621787
Finally found my copy of the book. It had managed to get itself not just misplaced but also it was 'undressed' so its dustcover has yet to be found. The cover has BIG TEXT while the hardcover is smaller text and err .... anyways, here's a quote from that book
“ ‘Portview House’, currently 10 Windsor Street, was built for £588 in 1880 (including costs of ‘expensive’ interior finish and of 20 feet of land at £7 per foot). Om 1882 it was sold for £850.”
That's from page 85. There's a (1978ish) photo on that page of the Portview House. It is part of a terrace, it is two storey, there's the usual chimney, balcony on first floor, front veranda on ground, and lots of decorative ironwork.
I have been onto google street view, and it is still there :D There's the same narrow alleyway (probably originally for access for the nightsoil man) , and the same decorative ironwork on the balcony, (newer ironwork on the ground floor veranda), even the same electricity switchboard on the wall. The hedge has grown (of course) and a newer letter box. The photo in the book is in black and white, but it was obviously painted in a light colour, perhaps in similar shades to google's image ;D
PS, I suspect that once the Regiments were withdrawn by Britain in 1870ish, that the original Port View House, (likely at that same address, but on a larger land holding) may have been demolished so that the terraces were then constructed on that site. HOWEVER, the local Council would be a sensible place to ask for NONspeculative information as "JM conjecture" is not fair.
Cheers, JM
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Thank you so much, majm, for your further thoughts and information on Portview House -- both of which are much appreciated. I will certainly have a hunt for the house on google maps and take a peel. Although it's a shame (if hardly surprising) that the original structure has not survived.
Well, my first thought on waking this morning (yes, I've got the genealogy bug bad!) was: could this David E J Davies b1856 entry in Ancestry records actually be a really bad transcription for what should have been Owen E M Davies b1854's entry?!!! Owen jnr was born in November 1854, and with what you've kindly explained to me about babies being registered born up to 18 months before when the register started in March 1856, he certainly could have qualified for being so registered. If this is him, then we are looking at 3 transcription errors here: wrong first name, one wrong middle initial, and wrong year of birth :-\ -- but I guess that's not uniquely unusual, if certainly unfortunate! At any rate, I have ordered a transcript of the full entry (rather wish I'd ordered the original, now), and I will, of course, report back once I receive that -- as well as, of course, offering an amendment to the record on Ancestry, if appropriate.
CELTIC ANNIE
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Mystery finally solved :) -- through the discovery of a really quite appalling transcription error!! It has turned out that this "David E J Davies" birth certificate is in fact the birth certificate of Mary Constance Davies (referred to in earlier posts); and "David E J Davies" is a mix-up with the name of the minister who baptized her! The final column of the certificate, which is for "Name if added after Registration of Birth" on the original reads: "Mary Constance Baptized by David Evan Jones, Minister of St Matthias Church, Paddington on the 6th day of December 1856." ??? ::)
??????!!!!!!
A sobering lesson for me on the importance of accessing original documents, rather than relying on transcriptions. But I've learned some other stuff about the family through starting this post, however, and I'm very grateful for that.
CELTIC ANNIE
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Hi there,
May I suggest you send an email to NSW BDM and ask them to correct the online index, to read "2445/1856 DAVIES MARY C OWEN JANE PADDINGTON" with the following reason: "as that better reflects the actual details of this birth registration based on the section of the registration under the NSW BDM heading 'NAME IF ADDED AFTER REGISTRATION OF BIRTH' " And if you want, you could add, "David E J seems likely to be a mistranscription for David Evan JONES, the Anglican Reverend of St Matthias, Paddington who baptised Mary Constance DAVIES, 6 December 1856." It can take several months for the online index to be updated, but they seem to be more willing to update this online index now, than in past years.
May I send you a PM with my email address, as I would be interested in a scanned copy of the registration. I have rellies who are retired now, but formerly senior officers with NSW BDM ;D
Cheers, JM